Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:30 pm

Stercutus wrote:While unrelated to the incidents in NOLA the other shoe seems to have dropped on these guys and this seemed a good a place as any to drop this in there.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/10 ... rds-trial/
Four former Blackwater security guards were found guilty Wednesday in the 2007 shootings of more than 30 Iraqis in Baghdad, and a federal judge ordered them immediately to jail.

In an overwhelming victory for prosecutors, a jury found Nicholas Slatten guilty of first-degree murder. The three other guards -- Paul Slough, Evan Liberty and Dustin Heard -- were found guilty of multiple counts of voluntary manslaughter, attempted manslaughter and gun charges.

The four men had been charged with a combined 33 counts in the shootings and the jury was able to reach a verdict on all of them, with the exception of three charges against Heard. The prosecution agreed to drop those charges.

The outcome after a summer long trial and weeks of jury deliberation stunned the defense.....

You pull the trigger, you own those bullets for life. It does not matter who you are.

Most of us who have lived in the profession of arms for years or decades understand this. Buying a gun and learning how to use it does not give you any better judgment. If trained policemen, military and special operator washouts can screw the pooch so can you.



Indeed the Black Water case is exactly an example of accountability for your actions.

Here is an incident that took place outside of the sovereign jurisdiction of the US. Yet the players were called to judgement for their actions in Washington D.C.

The company and several company officers were indicted in addition to the actual shooters.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014 ... trial.html
In 2010, prosecutors obtained indictments against former Blackwater president Gary Jackson and four others on felony firearms violations involving dozens of weapons. All charges against three of the accused were dismissed after a federal judge ruled to reduce several of the felony charges to misdemeanors. Jackson and the former company vice president admitted guilt on misdemeanor charges.
Last year, Academi settled federal criminal charges against the company, paying a $7.5 million fine for firearms violations. Academi also settled lawsuits brought by survivors of the Iraqi civilians killed during the Baghdad shooting.
It is an interesting case on a lot of grounds.

I would note that US citizens can be held accountable for crimes committed in foreign jurisdictions. The most common use of this is to prosecute people for crimes committed on the high seas or in international air travel.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:46 pm

Many of our newer members have not seen some of the older posts and I will be giving some of the older stickied posts a free bump.

Free bump.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by JakeMcCandles » Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:25 pm

This is a great thread - glad to see it bumped back up for newer members. I enjoyed reading it back in 2010, and going back through it again has been interesting.

As I've re-read the material, I can't help but wonder how the more recent events in Ferguson, St. Louis, NYC, Chicago, etc. would change the narrative. I'll avoiding going down the political route, but it seems that today there is much more organized opposition to LEOs of all types.

In the next natural disaster, how would that change the dynamic? Interesting to consider.
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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:59 pm

JakeMcCandles wrote:This is a great thread - glad to see it bumped back up for newer members. I enjoyed reading it back in 2010, and going back through it again has been interesting.

As I've re-read the material, I can't help but wonder how the more recent events in Ferguson, St. Louis, NYC, Chicago, etc. would change the narrative. I'll avoiding going down the political route, but it seems that today there is much more organized opposition to LEOs of all types.

In the next natural disaster, how would that change the dynamic? Interesting to consider.
Thanks for the kind words.

As to last question. I cannot speak for other areas.

IMO the NOPD?

I have read and heard and from several NOPD words to the effect of:

"If that happens again...you are on your own... I am not hanging around to help."

The NOPD is at a historical low head count. The force is demoralized and those that can retire are doing so ASAP. They are hiring about 75 a year and at one point losing 300 per year. The response times are "improving" from 73 minutes to an average of 15 minutes at least for the last 30 days. However that "improvement" will not last and was really done for the Mardi Gras visitors.

I suspect that their response will be quite different next time. It is likely their response will be simply to leave or stay in the police compounds.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by phil_in_cs » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:57 am

Bumping this due to Harvey's effects. There have been a few people shot and HPD has arrested a couple dozen 'armed looters' in addition to the more common people doing crimes of opportunity. A key theme from raptor's initial post and most of the followups has been that while the S was truly HTF last week, you will be held by the standards of this week in subsequent legal matters.
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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:54 pm

This is another aspect of responsibility and accountability in a SHTF situation.

The hero in this article is a grocer well actually the President of HEB in Texas.

He is responding in a "can do" way to take care of his employees, customers, community and business. Yes his motivation is to make money but he has the means, ability and responsibility to supply the needs to customers as well make sure his employees get paid and continue their employment.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/inside-s ... hip-cutter

In Texas, a grocery chain is now inspiring memes.

One goes like this: "State and federal resources are struggling to get into impacted areas. H.E.B. — outta the way, we're coming."

Another adds: "I’ll see your FEMA and Red Cross and raise you my Texas grocery store chain."
All rules are off when you have a hurricane.

....snip....

In 2005, my first hurricane was Hurricane Rita in Beaumont, Tex. FEMA closed the city; they wanted everybody to leave and they wouldn't let anybody in. I had 70 stores without power. I needed to get my perishable product out because it starts to rot. FEMA wouldn't meet with me. So, after two days, I got three busses and filled them with people and I typed up a letter that said, "To whom it may concern, these people are authorized by me to clean out the H-E-B stores and get them ready for business." I got a Cadillac Escalade and put a flashing blue light on top. The police stopped them and said, "You can't come in." They handed them the letter from me on my letterhead and the policeman read it and said, "I guess you can come in." We kind of coined the phrase fake it 'til you make it. That's the way we go about handling natural disasters. We'll do whatever it takes.

On Tuesday, we changed our strategy to say, let’s get product to the stores that are closest to the distribution centers because we knew we have the greatest likelihood of getting the trucks to and from them. Then, we'll work out in concentric circles and we'll send cars out to see: Can we get there and can we get back and what are the routes? The number of deliveries we've made everyday have just gone up exponentially.

I think I said on Thursday of this week, I don't even know what day it is. Someone told me, hey, the Astros signed Justin Verlander. I had no idea. I really don't know too much of what's going on in the world, but I can tell you what's happening area-by-area on flooding. Yesterday, they put a water ban on one part of Houston. Within five minutes, we had a truck rolling to that area. Once they put a water ban on, people go crazy. Like they have to get water immediately. If you can't get water into a city, you're going to have civil unrest.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by LowKey » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:01 pm

phil_in_cs wrote:Bumping this due to Harvey's effects. There have been a few people shot and HPD has arrested a couple dozen 'armed looters' in addition to the more common people doing crimes of opportunity. A key theme from raptor's initial post and most of the followups has been that while the S was truly HTF last week, you will be held by the standards of this week in subsequent legal matters.
What grocery store? Because I'd like to see them immortalized in memes.

Not because they've sought such a thing, but because they deserve such a thing.
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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:47 pm

LowKey wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:Bumping this due to Harvey's effects. There have been a few people shot and HPD has arrested a couple dozen 'armed looters' in addition to the more common people doing crimes of opportunity. A key theme from raptor's initial post and most of the followups has been that while the S was truly HTF last week, you will be held by the standards of this week in subsequent legal matters.
What grocery store? Because I'd like to see them immortalized in memes.

Not because they've sought such a thing, but because they deserve such a thing.
HEB is the store. See the above article.

As for my "meme" I think Phil meant theme.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by delarey » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:18 am

Great thread! I agree that even if everything has gone to hell, you can still be held accountable.
Also agree that the last thing you want to hear is "we are from the government and we are here to help...". Stay as far away from people: civvies and first responders/ LEO, NG, etc. as possible.
I respect them all, but with heightened emotions and stress, common sense and decency go out the window.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:05 pm

Free bump to promote discussion anther thread.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by delarey » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:43 pm

I'l relate a short story...
South Africa has deteriorated since the advent of "democracy". Infrastructure is not what it used to be and emergency services are really lacking. Average response time for police is usually dismal, especially on farms (where some of the worst crimes are committed).
Around 1998 or 1999 (when I purchased my first legal pistol and got a permit), I agreed to farm-sit. An older couple from church were going on vacation and didn't want to leave their farm unattended. So I stayed there for 2 weeks, fed animals, mowed the lawn, checked on irrigation, etc.
I had a great time with their dogs. 2 Boerboels and 2 smaller mutts. All of them slept inside the house. Since we were on a generator, I didn't really watch a lot of TV at night - it was usually early turn in for me.
About a week into it, I turned in earlier than usual. I laid on the sofa in the living room and chatted with my girlfriend in the US (via SMS). Around 10PM, the little dogs started growling at the front door, which faced the driveway and entry gate, which was a good 20 meters away. The house was fenced and had proper clearing done around it, for security. The large dogs got in on the action and started growling as well.
I looked out the window and could see some activity at the gate, but with the bars in the way, couldn't be sure what it was.
Being young, I decided to step outside and find out what's going on. Fortunately, I didn't have a key for the lock on the front door's burglar gate, so I went out the kitchen door on the side. As I peeked around the corner of the house, I could see 5 men at the gate. They were trying to cut through the lock (one of those round padlocks that are almost impossible to cut). I could also see a rifle magazine extending from behind one of them, so I knew they were armed. I grew up on a farm in SA, so I knew what would happen if they got in. I dialed 10111 on my phone and of course it rang for what felt forever. As soon as the lady answered, I told her which farm I was on and that several men were trying to gain entry. She told me to go hide in the house and that the local station is sending a bakkie (pickup truck) to the farm to take care of it. At that point, they appeared to have gotten through the lock and were in the process of opening the gates.
I decided to shoot. I fired a total of 5 rounds. I thought it was 2, but 5 cases were on the ground. They turned and ran. After making sure that they were gone, I closed the gate, took the lock off the kitchen gate and put it on the main gate. Called 10111 again and got the same lady. Informed her that I fired warning shots and they ran off. This all happened in a matter of 5 minutes, if that.
My dad showed up 15 minutes later.
Cops showed up the next morning around 11. "Sorry, we didn't have petrol for the bakkie and the station commander had the invoice book for the petrol station". So I tell them what happened, they find my spent cases. Go to the gate, broken lock and cutters still on the ground. They find tracks, which lead to a set of car tracks, then to the main road. They also find a blood trail to the car tracks.
So this is where accountability steps in...
They try to slap the cuffs on me! In those days, you could still argue with a cop in SA and get away with it. They weren't near as agro or belligerent as they are now. I put up a hell of a screaming fight with the sergeant and told him that I wouldn't have had to shoot if they weren't so bloody useless and that I'm going to file a complaint against him and his station commander. I also mentioned that I smelled alcohol. That quickly changed his tune. I didn't smell alcohol, but it was a safe bet that he'd been partying the night before - it was right after pay day.
So, yes, even if the whole socio-economic situation went to hell, you can still land in jail. Even if you did the right thing.

Sorry for the long story, but it taught me a thing or two about accountability - mostly to SSS.

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