All purpose NFA questions thread

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by eeb » Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:30 am

JustAnotherSnakeCult wrote:If I form 1 a coach gun do I have to physically cutoff the barrels when the form 1 comes back or can my engraver do it (with me there)?
Your engraver can do it with you and the form present.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by JustAnotherSnakeCult » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:19 pm

eeb wrote:
JustAnotherSnakeCult wrote:If I form 1 a coach gun do I have to physically cutoff the barrels when the form 1 comes back or can my engraver do it (with me there)?
Your engraver can do it with you and the form present.
Thats what I thought. Thanks for confirming.

Now if you were going to SBS a coach gun what would you start with? I've been looking unsuccessfully for a used one for months. Stoeger's seem to be the cheapest, but I see mixed reviews.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by eeb » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:51 pm

Chiappa Triple Threat.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by JustAnotherSnakeCult » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:58 pm

Thought about the Chiappa Triple barrel. No doubt it would be full of awesome but the MSRP is like twice a CZ coach gun, which is like twice a Steoger.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by eeb » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:20 pm

Found a company offering a variety of 80% receivers, 3 shotgun options among them. Seems like it might be useful for building an AOW. IIRC, the stamp to construct an AOW costs $5, vs. $200 to transfer one, but you can't construct one from an existing firearm. Could be way off base, Im sure someone will let me know if I am. Otherwise I'll post a link to the company when I can find it. Same company as the 80% model 700 receiver in the other thread, btw.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:23 pm

eeb wrote:Found a company offering a variety of 80% receivers, 3 shotgun options among them. Seems like it might be useful for building an AOW. IIRC, the stamp to construct an AOW costs $5, vs. $200 to transfer one, but you can't construct one from an existing firearm. Could be way off base, Im sure someone will let me know if I am. Otherwise I'll post a link to the company when I can find it. Same company as the 80% model 700 receiver in the other thread, btw.
Six kidns of wrong hombre. AoWs are $5 to transfer, $200 to construct, and can be made from an existing handgun or other weapon. You cannot take a rifle and make an AoW, but you can start with a pistol or a PGO shotgun and make an AoW. Note that AoWs also cannot have a stock.*

*With some exceptions
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by eeb » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:15 pm

I only count two kinds of wrong ( maybe three) but just as well. I didn't want to start registering firearms anyway.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by LowKey » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:51 am

For all the folks considering creating a trust for NFA items, you may want to avoid "Gun Trust" specific language or risk having your bank/credit union refuse to create an account in the trust's name.
My credit union (NavyFederal) just declined to start an account for my trust, stating that a "business decision" had been made not to offer account services to gun trusts.
As it is a credit union, as a member I've requested any and all documentation on this policy/business decision (minutes, memo's, ect) to see what are my options(aside from restating my trust to remove firearm specific language).


I've been a member of this credit union for quite a while and have been exceedingly happy with them over the years, so it's rather dissapointing to have them make such a decision on what appears to be potential PR concerns...I can't see what liability a financial institution would have in creating an account for any legal/lawful type of trust.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by UndeadInfidel » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:54 am

LowKey wrote:For all the folks considering creating a trust for NFA items, you may want to avoid "Gun Trust" specific language or risk having your bank/credit union refuse to create an account in the trust's name.
My credit union (NavyFederal) just declined to start an account for my trust, stating that a "business decision" had been made not to offer account services to gun trusts.
As it is a credit union, as a member I've requested any and all documentation on this policy/business decision (minutes, memo's, ect) to see what are my options(aside from restating my trust to remove firearm specific language).


I've been a member of this credit union for quite a while and have been exceedingly happy with them over the years, so it's rather dissapointing to have them make such a decision on what appears to be potential PR concerns...I can't see what liability a financial institution would have in creating an account for any legal/lawful type of trust.
You don't need a trust bank account to fund a trust.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by LowKey » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:26 am

UndeadInfidel wrote: You don't need a trust bank account to fund a trust.
No, you don't.
My trust was funded when it was created with $5.00, cash.

A bank account in the trust's name does make it a bit more clear that persons are acting in their role as trustee when purchasing items or conducting other business for the trust.
Personally I'd prefer to keep "my" finaces completely seperate from the trust's finances. Hard to do if I have to use my account's to conduct transactions for the trust.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:33 am

LowKey wrote:
UndeadInfidel wrote: You don't need a trust bank account to fund a trust.
No, you don't.
My trust was funded when it was created with $5.00, cash.

A bank account in the trust's name does make it a bit more clear that persons are acting in their role as trustee when purchasing items or conducting other business for the trust.
Personally I'd prefer to keep "my" finaces completely seperate from the trust's finances. Hard to do if I have to use my account's to conduct transactions for the trust.
I have always paid the seller to cut a check for the stamp or used a postal money order (for Form 1s) but to each his own. Unless the trust has income all its own, you're still putting personal money into the trust just to pull it back out. I know some people do it but I never really saw an advantage.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by LowKey » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:24 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
LowKey wrote:
UndeadInfidel wrote: You don't need a trust bank account to fund a trust.
No, you don't.
My trust was funded when it was created with $5.00, cash.

A bank account in the trust's name does make it a bit more clear that persons are acting in their role as trustee when purchasing items or conducting other business for the trust.
Personally I'd prefer to keep "my" finaces completely seperate from the trust's finances. Hard to do if I have to use my account's to conduct transactions for the trust.
I have always paid the seller to cut a check for the stamp or used a postal money order (for Form 1s) but to each his own. Unless the trust has income all its own, you're still putting personal money into the trust just to pull it back out. I know some people do it but I never really saw an advantage.
I readily agree that the credit union's failure to open a <gun> trust account isn't going to stop the trust from purchasing NFA items.
It's just irritating that they're discrimitating based on the purpose of the trust. They do trust accounts...as long as they don't mention firearms. :?

One of the reason's I wanted an account was to obtain a debit card in the trust's name, to be used with the ATF's eforms.
Again perfectly legal to use my "personal" credit card, but I wanted to make things as clear cut and neat as possible.

I brought this up for people who intend to start an account up in a trust's name. You may want to find out before drawing up the trust if the financial institution you plan on using will have a problem with a "Gun" Trust. If they do you can either shop for an institution that has no such problem, or avoid language in the trust that refers specificly to firearms.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by UndeadInfidel » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:16 pm

LowKey wrote:
UndeadInfidel wrote: You don't need a trust bank account to fund a trust.
No, you don't.
My trust was funded when it was created with $5.00, cash.

A bank account in the trust's name does make it a bit more clear that persons are acting in their role as trustee when purchasing items or conducting other business for the trust.
Personally I'd prefer to keep "my" finaces completely seperate from the trust's finances. Hard to do if I have to use my account's to conduct transactions for the trust.
You can fund the trust with items...

The ATF doesn't give a shit where the $200 comes from.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:33 pm

UndeadInfidel wrote:
LowKey wrote:
UndeadInfidel wrote: You don't need a trust bank account to fund a trust.
No, you don't.
My trust was funded when it was created with $5.00, cash.

A bank account in the trust's name does make it a bit more clear that persons are acting in their role as trustee when purchasing items or conducting other business for the trust.
Personally I'd prefer to keep "my" finaces completely seperate from the trust's finances. Hard to do if I have to use my account's to conduct transactions for the trust.
You can fund the trust with items...

The ATF doesn't give a shit where the $200 comes from.
To add to that, the stamp-approval branch part of the ATF isn't a big evil Treadstone project laughing and waiting to send you to jail. They're accountants, more or less, and that's all that matters to them. You're a trustee, your money is valid, because as a trustee your job is to curate that trust. ATF has no say in that.

Now, a PMO comes in from a known felon, or someone not on the trust, that might cause an issue. In general ATF will kick your stamp back with hastily scribbled notes, sometiems even if nothing's wrong.

TL:DR there's no reason to go spend money to comply with non-existent regulations for trustgoers. Like I said, I've used PMOs and the seller's checvks (personal and business) without a problem. When I was an FFL, I used a personal credit card to do all my buying and selling. I have no idea about the eforms; I have no desire to try that until there's a nice long thread on ARFcom detailing all the pitfalls.

Just saying, ATF, the IRS, and anyone else watching knows exactly what an NFA trust is. They're not confused as to whether you are acting as a trustee or not, because you have included a copy of your trust documents and the trust name is on the application, signed by Your Name (Trustee) to make it abundantly clear.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by LowKey » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:42 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
UndeadInfidel wrote:
LowKey wrote:
UndeadInfidel wrote: You don't need a trust bank account to fund a trust.
No, you don't.
My trust was funded when it was created with $5.00, cash.

A bank account in the trust's name does make it a bit more clear that persons are acting in their role as trustee when purchasing items or conducting other business for the trust.
Personally I'd prefer to keep "my" finaces completely seperate from the trust's finances. Hard to do if I have to use my account's to conduct transactions for the trust.
You can fund the trust with items...

The ATF doesn't give a shit where the $200 comes from.
To add to that, the stamp-approval branch part of the ATF isn't a big evil Treadstone project laughing and waiting to send you to jail. They're accountants, more or less, and that's all that matters to them. You're a trustee, your money is valid, because as a trustee your job is to curate that trust. ATF has no say in that.

Now, a PMO comes in from a known felon, or someone not on the trust, that might cause an issue. In general ATF will kick your stamp back with hastily scribbled notes, sometiems even if nothing's wrong.

TL:DR there's no reason to go spend money to comply with non-existent regulations for trustgoers. Like I said, I've used PMOs and the seller's checvks (personal and business) without a problem. When I was an FFL, I used a personal credit card to do all my buying and selling. I have no idea about the eforms; I have no desire to try that until there's a nice long thread on ARFcom detailing all the pitfalls.

Just saying, ATF, the IRS, and anyone else watching knows exactly what an NFA trust is. They're not confused as to whether you are acting as a trustee or not, because you have included a copy of your trust documents and the trust name is on the application, signed by Your Name (Trustee) to make it abundantly clear.

Great FSM :gonk:
You're missing both the point of the post and the reason behind my wanting to set up a seperate account in the trust's name.


Point of the post: If you plan on opening a bank account in your trust's name you should check to see if your banking institution has a problem with Gun Trusts. If they do you should either find a new bank (for the trust account) or redraft your trust so that it does not include firearms specific language.*

Reason:
Having Trustee "A" ordering and paying for an item being shipped to an FFL for transfer which will be picked up by Trustee "B" (as Trustee "A" is currently out of the country).
Ordering in the name of the trust and paying with a check or debit card in the trust's name to increase the comfort level of an FFL regarding the transaction.
If you had an LLC which was buying a firearm it would be using the company's plastic or check, not the personal account of one of the officers.

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:TL:DR there's no reason to go spend money to comply with non-existent regulations for trustgoers.
:gonk:
I don't know about the instutution(s) you bank with, but the "cost" for a new account at my credit union is a whole $5.00 (a share deposit). First order of checks are free.
To what regulations (existent or non) did I refer? None.
Stating a desire to keep my personal finances seperate from the trust's is just that, a desire to keep them seperate.
I could use my personal checking account to do business if I opened a sole proprietorship, but I wouldn't. I'd rather keep the finances seperate.

UndeadInfidel wrote:You can fund the trust with items...

The ATF doesn't give a shit where the $200 comes from.
Quite true. And far easier to list $5.00 as the initial funding asset.
Of course I could have listed the ball point pen I used to sign the trust, or one of the paperclips holding the trust paperwork together.

This was a post about banks possibly having an issue creating an account for a Gun Trust. Period.
It wasn't a post asking how to create a Trust, what the requirements are for creating a trust, how to file a form 1 using a trust, or what the ATF is looking for in a valid trust.
It was about opening an account in a trust's name.



People-
Please, Please, Please STOP READING MORE INTO POSTS THAN WHAT IS WRITTEN!!!

That's not just for this thread. It's getting more and more common on the boards in general.



*Internet scare tactics aside, there is no legal requirement to use firearms specific language. Just be sure the trustee (s) all fully understand NFA transfer regulations.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Ten Eight » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:23 pm

Just a heads up, evidently BATFE is issuing ELECTRONIC stamps to those people who submitted applications via E-forms. No hard copy and "adhesive stamp", which the law states that the stamps must be. These stamps may not be legal. This pisses me off, as all my submissions that I am waiting on stamps for are electronic. Good overview from Princeton Blog:

http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/11/10/ar ... ng-answer/
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by eeb » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:00 pm

Ten Eight wrote:Just a heads up, evidently BATFE is issuing ELECTRONIC stamps to those people who submitted applications via E-forms. No hard copy and "adhesive stamp", which the law states that the stamps must be. These stamps may not be legal. This pisses me off, as all my submissions that I am waiting on stamps for are electronic. Good overview from Princeton Blog:

http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/11/10/ar ... ng-answer/
Better send the Tech Branch a letter.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Greg Focker » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:56 am

Ten Eight wrote:Just a heads up, evidently BATFE is issuing ELECTRONIC stamps to those people who submitted applications via E-forms. No hard copy and "adhesive stamp", which the law states that the stamps must be. These stamps may not be legal. This pisses me off, as all my submissions that I am waiting on stamps for are electronic. Good overview from Princeton Blog:

http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/11/10/ar ... ng-answer/
The ATF determining what is and isn't legal regardless of how the actual law reads? Why does that remind me of this:
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Resolute » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:34 am

Great... maybe I'll hold off getting a can until that's sorted out.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by JustAnotherSnakeCult » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:46 am

Resolute wrote:Great... maybe I'll hold off getting a can until that's sorted out.
You can still mail them in the old fashion way.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by rhi » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:14 pm

OK, gang. I apologize in advance if this was covered elsewhere. Honestly, I didn't read all the pages in this thread. :oops:

I just got out of a class today, with a nationally-recognized 2A attorney.

During the Q&A portion of the class, he mentioned something I'd never heard before:
"Transporting NFA items across state lines requires filling out a form and getting approval (from .gov)."

This would apply to such things such as SBRs and suppressors.

NFA issues are overcome-by-law here in NJ (we can't have any of them), but wondering about this for friends that bring these types of weapons up to shoots in PA from VA, OH etc...

Anyone know of this?
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Avicennasis » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 am

rhi wrote:OK, gang. I apologize in advance if this was covered elsewhere. Honestly, I didn't read all the pages in this thread. :oops:

I just got out of a class today, with a nationally-recognized 2A attorney.

During the Q&A portion of the class, he mentioned something I'd never heard before:
"Transporting NFA items across state lines requires filling out a form and getting approval (from .gov)."

This would apply to such things such as SBRs and suppressors.

NFA issues are overcome-by-law here in NJ (we can't have any of them), but wondering about this for friends that bring these types of weapons up to shoots in PA from VA, OH etc...

Anyone know of this?
Caveat Lector: I am not a lawyer/expert on NFA items.

"Form 5320.20, Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain NFA Firearms

The GCA, 18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(4), requires that a person obtain permission from ATF to transport a machinegun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or destructive device across State lines. Regulation 27 CFR 478.28 exempts an FFL who can deal, import, or manufacture firearms and who has paid the applicable SOT based on this[?] requirement and also exempts a person licensed as a collector of curios or relics if the firearm being transported is a curio or relic. Note that there is no requirement for any person to receive permission to move a silencer or firearm classified as an “any other weapon” across State lines. The NFA Branch will also accept an ATF Form 5320.20 to notify the NFA Branch of an intrastate change of address." -Source: ATF FFL Newsletter, Nov 2009. http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/n ... 009-11.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The form itself is located at http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download ... 320-20.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by MacWa77ace » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:32 pm

Useless NFA releated info below. Phones were out at work today so had some extra time.

In 1934 the NFA was created and the tax stamp was $200 for most NFA firearms. It was meant to "...curtail, if not prohibit, transactions in NFA firearms." [NFA handbook Sec 1.1.1 p2]

The National average wage index in 1934 was $1,296.33 as extrapolated from this data http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html

There has not been an increase in the tax.

In 2014 the National average wage indexing should be $48,522.91 as extrapolated from the above linked data set.

So in 1934 to register an NFA firearm the stamp cost 15% of an average person's annual gross income.
In 2014 that average person only need part with slightly less than 1/2% of said average income. YMMV

If you extrapolated the $200 tax to increase at the same rate as income, to prohibit and curtail, the tax stamp would currently be $7486.19 or some nice rounder gubment number.

Hope the phones are up tomorrow. :wink:
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by UndeadInfidel » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:11 pm

Yeah. I'm glad they haven't raised it. It's still as unconstitutional now as it was then, so fuggit.
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