is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Forum dedicated for rifles and shotguns from basic to tactical.

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

nathat
* * *
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:10 pm

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by nathat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:20 pm

that is impressive.

User avatar
Browning 35
BANNED
Posts: 4698
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:47 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Dawn of the Dead (2004).
28 Days Later.
Planet Terror.
Dawn of the Dead (1978).
Night of the Living Dead (1968)
Omega Man
Location: Texas

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by Browning 35 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:26 pm

Bullzeye wrote:This was a 220lb hog that was taken with a single shot from the Five-seveN @ 25 yards. The round used was FN's weakest - the SS197. It penetrated the skull, shattered the jaw, and left a golf ball sized cavity in the head. The hunter was demonstrating his Five-seveN to his friends, who were at the time a bit negative on the 5.7mm platform. After opening up the head they said and I quote, "HOLY SH**!!!, that lil bullet did that!!!?"

Image
Thanks for circling the wound cavity, other than the upper/lower jaw, teeth and a bunch of meat the pic is so close up that it's hard to tell what I'm looking at.

Well it Definately looks like it has some potential as a varmint and hog round.

Maybe one day I'll get around to getting a PS90.
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

bae
* * * * *
Posts: 1035
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:32 am
Location: Offshore

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by bae » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:48 pm

Browning 35 wrote: Well it Definately looks like it has some potential as a varmint and hog round.
I've had great success keeping the local varmint raccoon population under control with the 5.7x28. (Thus my desire for a Contender barrel :-) )

User avatar
ink
*
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:16 pm

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by ink » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:23 pm

i cant believe this thread is still going haha..anyway i appreciate all the effort put in by folks like ak_stick to convince those of us who have PS90's or FiveseveN's that we are retards.

User avatar
FrANkNstEin
* * * * *
Posts: 1341
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:37 am
Location: Austria

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by FrANkNstEin » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:47 pm

Yes you are and you should send all your P90´s and Five-Sevens to me for proper disposal... :wink:

I´ll even reimburse you the shipping cost, gentlemen!


On topic i think as long as you don´t demand the bullet should do something it was never designed for, compare it to rounds that you simply can´t compare it with with good consience and you keep your eye out for improved loads, you´re GTG.

User avatar
Valarius
* * * * *
Posts: 3231
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:42 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Shaun of the Dead and many of Romero's films.
Location: Around Nevada.
Contact:

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by Valarius » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:03 pm

No.

Flashing anything around that reeks of bling (like the Stargate gun) when the shit hits the fan is going to get you killed.

When it comes to firearms, most people are familiar with one: the shotgun. It's prolific, cheap and effective. Most people think of shotguns as the gun that goes "click-clack" when you pump it. It's the sound that a gun makes before you DIE. Bloody, messy, screaming pain and death. That's what everyone associates it with.

Those same people--almost everybody--are only familiar with FN's guns from television shows and video games. Hell, we're the Zombie Squad and our first inclination is to spout off about Goa'uld and Wraith attacking, even though we're now talking about if 5.7mm is a viable defense round.

Let me repeat that. WE know what we're talking about, and our FIRST thought is to make jokes. I believe that you're going to see someone getting threatened by someone, draw out your PS90, and they'll say "what the fuck is that, a laser gun?"

The situation will then devolve either into them trying to take it from you, or pulling their own guns that YOU know are unquestionably real (probably shotguns,) or you pulling the trigger and killing a human being. Probably all three.

No. The PS90 is not practical for post-shtf life. Firearms are not practical for post-shtf life. Confrontation and combat are not practical for post-shtf life. Flash guns around and someone will kill you for it.

There's my two cents. Go buy a soda.
See you around, HK. And remember folks: victory is surviving to watch another sunrise.

My female avatar is Saeko Busujima from High School Of The Dead. I'm a dude. :mrgreen:

Homeless survival techniques.

JZ1776
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by JZ1776 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:38 pm

Valarius wrote:No.

Flashing anything around that reeks of bling (like the Stargate gun) when the shit hits the fan is going to get you killed.

When it comes to firearms, most people are familiar with one: the shotgun. It's prolific, cheap and effective. Most people think of shotguns as the gun that goes "click-clack" when you pump it. It's the sound that a gun makes before you DIE. Bloody, messy, screaming pain and death. That's what everyone associates it with.

Those same people--almost everybody--are only familiar with FN's guns from television shows and video games. Hell, we're the Zombie Squad and our first inclination is to spout off about Goa'uld and Wraith attacking, even though we're now talking about if 5.7mm is a viable defense round.

Let me repeat that. WE know what we're talking about, and our FIRST thought is to make jokes. I believe that you're going to see someone getting threatened by someone, draw out your PS90, and they'll say "what the fuck is that, a laser gun?"

The situation will then devolve either into them trying to take it from you, or pulling their own guns that YOU know are unquestionably real (probably shotguns,) or you pulling the trigger and killing a human being. Probably all three.

No. The PS90 is not practical for post-shtf life. Firearms are not practical for post-shtf life. Confrontation and combat are not practical for post-shtf life. Flash guns around and someone will kill you for it.

There's my two cents. Go buy a soda.
I think the general consensus is that brandishing any firearm is an unwise tactic.

I agree with your point that avoiding confrontation would be the best way to survive in a post-SHTF scenario, but advocating brandishing weapons as an intimidation tactic is totally contradictory to achieving this goal. The only time it would be wise to display a firearm is when you are about to use it. This plays to one of the PS90's main strengths: ease of concealability. Try acting inconspicuous with a shotgun under your coat.

Also, I think most people (especially young people) would be more likely to identify the P90 as a kickass submachine gun from CoD, rather than a laser gun from a nerdy Sci-Fi show. :wink:

User avatar
squinty
* * * * *
Posts: 5753
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:11 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: night of the living dead, shaun of the dead, pre-opening credit scenes from 28 weeks later and dawn of the dead remake

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by squinty » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:44 pm

Valarius wrote: Confrontation and combat are not practical for post-shtf life.
If this was the only thing you'd posted, I'd have sigged it. Of course confrontation and combat are undesirable pursuits right now, too - but the point about the PAW still holds true: violence may be a concern, but it won't be the worst or most immediate threat to our lives, in most disaster situations. How to eat, drink clean water, shelter ourselves and treat/prevent illnesses, how not to drown in the tsunami, get radiation sickness from the fallout, etc. will be far more pressing concerns, most of the time. But this is the firearms section of "disaster equipment."

I'm not so sure about the reliability or practicality of relying on a pump gun's "click-clack" sound to gain compliance. And I don't think anyone thinks it's a good idea to seek out conflict or "flash guns around" in a disaster.

Your recommendations seem to be contradictory. You recommend pump guns because they are easily recognized as weapons and make a scary sound when racked - so they are uniquely effective to use as a threat, and a better choice than a P90 to use to intimidate people. How is that different from "flashing a gun around?"

I'm not going to point, brandish or expressively rack the slide of my shotgun at anybody unless they are already presenting an obvious and imminent threat. In such a circumstance, the person I point it at won't have time to worry about whether it looks scary or like a toy laser.

I have saved myself from violence by the defensive display of a weapon before, but I think the way a weapon looks - is it intimidating? Is it familiar? - or it's "brandishability" is the least important concern when talking about the practicality of a self defense platform.
George Orwell wrote:Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

BHP
* * * * *
Posts: 2297
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:34 pm

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by BHP » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:03 am

Valarius wrote:No.

Flashing anything around that reeks of bling (like the Stargate gun) when the shit hits the fan is going to get you killed.

When it comes to firearms, most people are familiar with one: the shotgun. It's prolific, cheap and effective. Most people think of shotguns as the gun that goes "click-clack" when you pump it. It's the sound that a gun makes before you DIE. Bloody, messy, screaming pain and death. That's what everyone associates it with.

Those same people--almost everybody--are only familiar with FN's guns from television shows and video games. Hell, we're the Zombie Squad and our first inclination is to spout off about Goa'uld and Wraith attacking, even though we're now talking about if 5.7mm is a viable defense round.

Let me repeat that. WE know what we're talking about, and our FIRST thought is to make jokes. I believe that you're going to see someone getting threatened by someone, draw out your PS90, and they'll say "what the fuck is that, a laser gun?"

The situation will then devolve either into them trying to take it from you, or pulling their own guns that YOU know are unquestionably real (probably shotguns,) or you pulling the trigger and killing a human being. Probably all three.

No. The PS90 is not practical for post-shtf life. Firearms are not practical for post-shtf life. Confrontation and combat are not practical for post-shtf life. Flash guns around and someone will kill you for it.

There's my two cents. Go buy a soda.
That might be one of the dumbest posts I've seen here. And this place is semi famous for people saying stupid shit.

User avatar
Alpha-17
* * *
Posts: 487
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:06 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Resident Evil: Apocalypse
Resident Evil: Afterlife
28 Weeks Later
Location: Fort Riley, KS

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by Alpha-17 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:00 am

Valarius wrote:When it comes to firearms, most people are familiar with one: the shotgun. It's prolific, cheap and effective. Most people think of shotguns as the gun that goes "click-clack" when you pump it. It's the sound that a gun makes before you DIE. Bloody, messy, screaming pain and death. That's what everyone associates it with.

Those same people--almost everybody--are only familiar with FN's guns from television shows and video games. Hell, we're the Zombie Squad and our first inclination is to spout off about Goa'uld and Wraith attacking, even though we're now talking about if 5.7mm is a viable defense round.
Most guns, or any projectile weapon, cause people to die, bloody, messy, screaming in pain deaths. Shotguns don't have a monopoly on this. To me, a shotgun is a hunting gun, or an inexperienced movie lover's obsession. I know shotguns have limited capacity, have a slow rate of fire, and while effective, have other weaknesses (not a shotgun thread, not going there).

FN guns on the other hand, are military grade weapons intended for defense of one's self or others. The PS90, while I am not a fan, does have a large capacity and high rate of fire. That's what I think of when I see a weapon, not "OMG, he's got a shotgun!".
Valarius wrote: The situation will then devolve either into them trying to take it from you, or pulling their own guns that YOU know are unquestionably real (probably shotguns,) or you pulling the trigger and killing a human being. Probably all three.
That's a bad situation, but if it comes to it, then you're using your firearm, whatever it is, for defense. In this case, that probably means you're going to use it to kill. Not a good situation, but not something that is necessary at times.
Valarius wrote: No. The PS90 is not practical for post-shtf life. Firearms are not practical for post-shtf life. Confrontation and combat are not practical for post-shtf life. Flash guns around and someone will kill you for it.
I'd love to see somebody try to survive in any sort of post-SHTF world without firearms. One can only stay hidden for so long, and raiders, thieves, gangs, etc are all legitimate threats. Yes, it is smart to avoid confrontations, and combat is always a last resort, but it is still an option on the table. Guns are for defense primarily, and everything else secondarily. Sometimes they have to be used for that purpose.
THE LATEST AND GREATEST IN TACTICAL GEAR WON'T SAVE YOUR LIFE...... BUT, HEY, WHAT'S WRONG WITH SURVIVING IN STYLE?

7.62 NATO/.308 Fanboy

Image

User avatar
nyarlotep
* * *
Posts: 447
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:12 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: I don't think I've seen one. Not a big fan of the horror genre.
Location: Washington State

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by nyarlotep » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:49 pm

Don't have the patience to read whole thread, but my 2¢:
The PS90 is awesome as fuck. If I could get one converted to SBR and full auto (a la Stargate) or burst, I totally would. However, it's only intended as a short range PDW; I look at it as a big-ass pistol you can use when you don't need to conceal anything. Need a wall of lead up close? Use the PS90. Otherwise, my Glock and AK should handle the stuff on either side of what the PS90 can do.
God was my co-pilot, but our plane crashed in the mountains and I ate him.

In theory, there's no difference between practice and theory. In practice, there is.
- Cigarman

Bullzeye
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:26 pm

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by Bullzeye » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:09 am

squinty wrote:I thought you guys all got together and shot up a bunch of ballistic gel to resolve this debate with firsthand data, once'n' fer all.
IIRC certain brands of ammo penetrated much better than others, with one particular non-FN offering doing quite well in the gel.
How did that fail to resolve the issue? Anyone care to review the TL;DR version of those firsthand tests (I'm not wading through that mountain of data again, or watching all the YouTube vids again.)
The debate was indeed resolved but here is the issue.. You have certain types of people that find it exceedingly difficult to create a unique thought. These types of people will cling to the opinion - like a puppy to its momma's teet - of whom they perceive to be knowledgeable in the field of the topic of question. They probably understand that the "experts" certainly don't have it all figured out, but they are willing to gamble on being led astray in exchange for the comforts of groupthink and deference of fact-finding responsibility. In a nutshell, they are lazy and weak. You see, some of those that attended the ZS ballistic get together came with preconceived notions. When they saw the reality of the effectiveness of the 5.7x28mm platform, they were left in a very uncomfortable position. How could their leader at Lightfighter and M4Carbine have been so wrong? With highly "scientific" anecdote's like these: "One of our guys shot a gunman the other day with the P90 at about 7 yards. One round failed to penetrate the rib. Thats right, the SS190 AP round stuck into the rib just under the skin. -Dr. Roberts" - How in the world could you ever doubt their credibility? I'm sure he wasn't using interweb hearsay as a basis to infer that the P90 shooting SS190 ammo could be compared to an air rifle was he? That wouldn't be the kind of thing a professional ballistician who enjoys the ear of the FBI would do; that's the kind of comment you would expect from a faceless forum troll.

We've all heard the story about the brave military officer at Fort Hood that had her femur shattered in hundreds of pieces from over-the-counter 5.7 civilian ammo fired through the Five-seveN pistol (fires 5.7mm rounds at less velocity than a P90). We also know the femur to be the strongest and largest bone in the human body. On the other hand, ribs are much more vulnerable. It's not uncommon to hear of rib fractures due to coughing and sneezing. The 5.7x28mm isn't the perfect bullet, but one thing it does very well is penetrate objects - especially from 7 yards. The SS190 fired out of the P90 travels at 2400fps and delivers 400 ft-lbs of energy to its target and begins to tumble within an inch or two after impact. It will penetrate CRISAT or Level IIIA vests at a range of 200m. The P90's rate of fire is 900 RPM - that's 15 rounds every second. If the story about SS190 stopping just under the skin is true (which I doubt it is), the man who was shot was standing behind at least 1/4 inch of solid steel.

Another P90 urban legend touted like gospel from the mountaintop's of places like Lightfighter and M4Carbine is this little piece of fiction: "The other guy was shot 10-12 times before he told the officers 'stop shooting me' and gave up." Now we all know that ONE P90 will deliver 15 rounds in 1 second. However, based on "expert testimony" from this esteemed ballistician, we are supposed to believe that all this action and subsequent surrender happened within 2/3rds of a second? :lol: :?: Perhaps they were shooting their P90's in semi-auto? If so then why? You would be taking the P90's greatest advantage (high rate of accurate fire) out of the equation. Do police officers only shoot one or two times to bring down a threat? No, usually it will be several officers unleashing a flurry of bullets until the attacker drops. The P90 firing SS190 in full auto will deliver 15 bullets on target in 1 second. That would be like 7 or 8 officers firing 2 shots of 9mm/45ACP (400 ft-lbs) all at the same time, at the same target, within one second. This was a quote from a participant in the ZS Ballistics test: "What was really telling (as to the effectiveness of the 5.7mm round) is when I dumped 6 rds in about 2 seconds and ragged a block. Basically, it was mush. So that's 3 rounds a second. What if we multiply that number by a factor of 5? How would the block look now?

I just love the internet. Some of these concocted 5.7 stories are almost believable.. especially if you want to believe them. :wink:

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:44 am

Well put. Not everyone needs an AR-15 as a bug-out gun. All bug out gear, including firearms, should be adapted to the environment it's going to be used in.

Edited to add emphasis.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

BHP
* * * * *
Posts: 2297
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:34 pm

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by BHP » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:18 am

Bullzeye, while I agree with much of what you say you are also engaging in the sort of reasoning you seem to be railing against in your post. For example, there are a lot of reasons why most police, even SWAT guys, almost never use full auto in the weapons they have that feature in so its certainly possible that there are cases where a suspect was fired at for some time who is rarely hit, or in the supposed example you listed it takes so long for multiple hits to be delivered. Also, about the relative strength of the bones in the humann body... Where did you learn that the femer is supposed to be the strongest bone in the body? I've never heard that from a credible source and I've been told that there are others that are harder to break. And I have never heard of anyone who doesn't suffer from some form of degenerative bone disorder who has broken ribs from sneezing or coughing. Lets step a little closer to the facts and not engage in hyperbole and extreme cases.

User avatar
TDW586
* * * * *
Posts: 8844
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Here, unless I'm not, in which case, somewhere else

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:04 am

Yep, Bullzeye, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a tool and a easily led sheep, that is a very mature and reasonable attitude. Well said.

Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk
Image

Bullzeye
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:26 pm

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by Bullzeye » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:57 am

BHP wrote:Bullzeye, while I agree with much of what you say you are also engaging in the sort of reasoning you seem to be railing against in your post. For example, there are a lot of reasons why most police, even SWAT guys, almost never use full auto in the weapons they have that feature in so its certainly possible that there are cases where a suspect was fired at for some time who is rarely hit, or in the supposed example you listed it takes so long for multiple hits to be delivered. Also, about the relative strength of the bones in the humann body... Where did you learn that the femer is supposed to be the strongest bone in the body? I've never heard that from a credible source and I've been told that there are others that are harder to break. And I have never heard of anyone who doesn't suffer from some form of degenerative bone disorder who has broken ribs from sneezing or coughing. Lets step a little closer to the facts and not engage in hyperbole and extreme cases.
Let's make it simple. Load-bearing bones are stronger than non load-bearing. I think you will find plenty of data to support my original assertions, but let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees; rib bones weak - leg bones strong.. conjured up interweb story about 5.7 bullets barely penetrating skin - hilarious.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/824856-overview
The femur is the largest and strongest bone and has a good blood supply. Because of this and its protective surrounding muscle, the shaft requires a large amount of force to fracture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rib_fracture
Rib fractures can occur without direct trauma and have been reported after sustained coughing and in various sports – for example, rowing and golf – often in elite athletes.
I want to leave you with a true story. I was at an IDPA match once and was shooting my Five-seveN. An older gentleman with a lot of shooting experience walked up to me and told me that he had previously owned a Five-seveN, but decided to sell it after firing a couple rounds at a coyote one night and failing to penetrate its skin. He said this to me with a straight face. I just kind of smiled, nodded, and looked down. His statement was so absurd I didn't really know how to respond. Later that evening after I had put on a fireball and thunder show like only the Five-seveN can, this same guy walks back up to me apologetically and tries to say that the gun really has potential and asks if he can have some of my used brass. I said sure and walked off shaking my head. One thing is for sure, the 5.7 platform makes normally sane folks act and talk very insane.

TerryGecko
* * *
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:17 am
Location: Charlotte NC

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by TerryGecko » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:37 pm

BHP wrote:Bullzeye, while I agree with much of what you say you are also engaging in the sort of reasoning you seem to be railing against in your post. For example, there are a lot of reasons why most police, even SWAT guys, almost never use full auto in the weapons they have that feature in so its certainly possible that there are cases where a suspect was fired at for some time who is rarely hit, or in the supposed example you listed it takes so long for multiple hits to be delivered. Also, about the relative strength of the bones in the humann body... Where did you learn that the femer is supposed to be the strongest bone in the body? I've never heard that from a credible source and I've been told that there are others that are harder to break. And I have never heard of anyone who doesn't suffer from some form of degenerative bone disorder who has broken ribs from sneezing or coughing. Lets step a little closer to the facts and not engage in hyperbole and extreme cases.
It's pretty well known that the femur is the strongest bone in the body. Some say the temporal bone in the skull but the femur is definitely the answer in mainstream medicine.
Violent Torpedo of Truth

User avatar
Gramaton Cleric
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:07 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: dawn of the dead
quarantine
diary of the dead
Location: Independence, MO

Re: is a PS90 practical for post-SHTF life?

Post by Gramaton Cleric » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:00 pm

Lol :lol: I started from my post and read till I got to Terry Geckos post and, Frankly Im amazed by people! Now Im no expert and wont claim to be, none of you know me from Adam. Honestly I don't give a shit what anybody else thinks, I personally like the Five Seven caliber, design, and round, more importantly In my hands it will work for what its intended for(TO FIRE PROJECTILES AT HIGH SPEED WHERE I AIM). I don't need an experts opinion on ballistics, wound channel data, or any other bit of data. The bullets go where I aim its light,fast,accurate. I don't care about what it was designed for either. It will work for the user. Im not swayed by the "mass" opinion of others, never have been, like I said before, "its a tool in the tool box" and in mine i have more than one tool! 8-). So op do what ya like!
NRA LIFE, NRA Pistol Instructor.
Aim small, Miss small.
Prior Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance.

ZSC:034 Kansas City
Fightin' 34th "Guardians of the Frontier!"

Post Reply

Return to “Longarms - Shotguns and Rifles”