The myth of zip ties for restraints

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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by drop bear » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:02 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
drop bear wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Allow me to ask the burning question: Who are you restraining and for how long?
People you have arrested and untill the cops arrive. Nicer than sitting on them with you knee in their neck.
Why would you sit with your knee on their neck? That's asking for soemthing bad to happen. Anyone else see Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang, in particular the scene where Travolta explains why you don't stand point-blank on someone you're covering with a gun?

Some things to remember:
1. The coips and military who do this are trained for it. They know how to avoid that permanent damage I talked about. That leads to number two:
2. They have unions and lawyers on standby to fight cases of excessive force and the like. You zip those cuffs too tight and cause soem permanent damage, I guarantee you will get sued. I'm not aware of any laws that grant you any protection when you cause injury to an incapacitated person. That would include sitting with your knee in someone's neck. Why not stand off-line and keep the gun pointed in their general direction? Leading to:
3. Okay, you have incapacitated someone by merely pointing a gun at them, and against all odds they have laid down on the floor instead of running or fighting. Now you want to get close enough to touch them because? What keeps them from trying to fight as soon as you get into grappling range? You're adding a risk when you could sit across the room talking to the dispatcher with your gun at the low ready so as not to accidentally shoot them, and then let the guys with an army of lawyers do the restraining.

So the question now is why.

I think you are over cooking this a bit.

Last guy I arrested because he broke my windscreen wiper. I just chased him down with a couple of mates and sat on him. That is hardly worth shooting someone for. If I had to shoot him I probably wouldn't have bothered.

I admit I wouldn't use the metal zip ties. Otherwise just slap some restraints on sit them down and wait. You can still watch them so they dont do something silly. Safer than waving guns at people. Especially people you haven't searched,

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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:08 pm

I wouldn't have bothered. I have better things to do than try to run soemone down for a $50 part.

Point remains, you zipcuff/ziptie dudebro and cause injury, you can be held liable. Civil, maybe criminal depending on his lawyer and your local law.
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by drop bear » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:21 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:I wouldn't have bothered. I have better things to do than try to run soemone down for a $50 part.

Point remains, you zipcuff/ziptie dudebro and cause injury, you can be held liable. Civil, maybe criminal depending on his lawyer and your local law.

Yeah but if you have hooked after a guy and dropped them you do sorta have to be making an arrest. Otherwise there was no reason to have done that in the first place.

Pretty much if you are using force on people you are either arresting them or escaping from them. If you are arresting people then you may as well do it properly.

Otherwise it is still with the lawers and stuff.

Personally I would like to secure the guy before I get distracted by making phone calls. It is a bit safer.

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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by Mikeyboy » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:24 pm

ineffableone wrote:
Mikeyboy wrote:On the flip side, I want to thank the OP, ineffableone for posting those videos on how to escape zip ties. Its going to be required watching for my wife and kids when I get home from work. You are right, it could save a life.
Your welcome. There are a lot more videos on youtube showing this, and it might be worth searching a bit to find other examples for your family. The ITS page is the most complete info pulled into one place, giving text pictures and video of different conditions front, back, paired ties, etc.

While the show was a bit corny, Spikes' "Surviving Disaster" episode on Home Invasions got into ways to "pick" a Zip tie and how to saw off duct tape with your shoelaces.

http://www.spike.com/episodes/r99ydj/su ... n-1-ep-104" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:31 pm

drop bear wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:I wouldn't have bothered. I have better things to do than try to run soemone down for a $50 part.

Point remains, you zipcuff/ziptie dudebro and cause injury, you can be held liable. Civil, maybe criminal depending on his lawyer and your local law.
Pretty much if you are using force on people you are either arresting them or escaping from them. If you are arresting people then you may as well do it properly.
That's a key difference then. I don't want to use force on someone that's running away. Runnign away means they aren't a threat to me. I'm not a cop, I don't arrest people. My problem with running after someone over a petty crime like that is that I may turn a $50 wiunshield wiper into a thousand dollar hospital bill if he decides to fight. I practice avoidance, and running someone down is sort of the opposite of avoidance.
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by .milFox » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:18 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: Maybe it's a TTP difference, but the only time we restrained anyone was when the gunfight was over and you had someone else there to cover you. We never trained to restrain someone when the possibility of getting shot in the ass still remained.
Lots of TTP differences between LE version of VBS versus the Marine version. ;) Sometimes you need to adequately restrain/detain someone before you can continue on with your search, and we're a bit more manpower constrained team sizewise on a typical boarding.

Also, yeah. I wouldn't be doing anything without adequate cover, but that's covered in that whole cuffing training caveat. Solo? I'm going to talk you into a cuffing position if that's the way the scenario plays down.

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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by BloodLust » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:15 pm

Double the zip-ties for restraining and still wrap in duct tape.
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by drop bear » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:17 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
drop bear wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:I wouldn't have bothered. I have better things to do than try to run soemone down for a $50 part.

Point remains, you zipcuff/ziptie dudebro and cause injury, you can be held liable. Civil, maybe criminal depending on his lawyer and your local law.
Pretty much if you are using force on people you are either arresting them or escaping from them. If you are arresting people then you may as well do it properly.
That's a key difference then. I don't want to use force on someone that's running away. Runnign away means they aren't a threat to me. I'm not a cop, I don't arrest people. My problem with running after someone over a petty crime like that is that I may turn a $50 wiunshield wiper into a thousand dollar hospital bill if he decides to fight. I practice avoidance, and running someone down is sort of the opposite of avoidance.
Life means engaging in some degree of risk. I like to do my bit to make the world a better place. Otherwise what is the point?

And look if I get bashed for my trouble I get bashed. It is charactor building.

And you don't have to be a cop to arrest people.

By the way. And I know I am weird about this. But if you walk around gunned up. Then you are walking around with the ability to kill people.

If you are able to kill people then you should be able to have options that don't involve killing them.

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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:35 pm

drop bear wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
drop bear wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:I wouldn't have bothered. I have better things to do than try to run soemone down for a $50 part.

Point remains, you zipcuff/ziptie dudebro and cause injury, you can be held liable. Civil, maybe criminal depending on his lawyer and your local law.
Pretty much if you are using force on people you are either arresting them or escaping from them. If you are arresting people then you may as well do it properly.
That's a key difference then. I don't want to use force on someone that's running away. Runnign away means they aren't a threat to me. I'm not a cop, I don't arrest people. My problem with running after someone over a petty crime like that is that I may turn a $50 wiunshield wiper into a thousand dollar hospital bill if he decides to fight. I practice avoidance, and running someone down is sort of the opposite of avoidance.
Life means engaging in some degree of risk. I like to do my bit to make the world a better place. Otherwise what is the point?

And look if I get bashed for my trouble I get bashed. It is charactor building.

And you don't have to be a cop to arrest people.
Replace "bashed" with "shot" or "stabbed" and you may see my point.
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400 Grains
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by 400 Grains » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:35 am

As a long time cop, I think Doc has made several good points. Once the major threat has been dealt with, trying to restrain someone has a whole lotta down side to it.

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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by Doryman » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:33 am

Zip ties are a good piece of kit to have on hand. Lots of every-day, practical uses. That video on escapes was pretty informative, and was worth the several seconds it took to impart the knowledge (thanks OP!)

However, the idea that you should be using them to restrain something is ridiculous, on a couple levels. Doc Fab, 400 grains and others have already gone into the obvious downsides of using them to tie someone up (physical and legal issues, etc.) My issue is that hearing about "zip tie skillz" automatically trip my 'survival fantasist alarm". Having to restrain a bad guy in a state of lawlessness is a very low-percentage possibility. If a person is spending their time cooking up and practicing zip-tie related after-action scenarios, they are likely ignoring some other type of skill/preps that have a higher percentage of usefulness. It reminds me of the type of guy that has an elaborate ninja-weapon for every possible scenario, but is a financial incompetent with the physical fitness of a geriatric leper. Striving to be the best Zip Tie specialist in your group means you are gone way too far down the rabbit hole, bro!

As much as I try, I cannot concoct a scenario where my best course of action would be to zip-tie a miscreant. If I chase down some chucklehead and introduce him to the pavement with the intention of holding him for the authorities, I'll just keep him in place with a rear-naked choke or kata-gatame. If I deem it too dangerous to grapple with him, fucked if I'm going to do the same thing in order to zip-tie him.

If said chucklehead has friend that also need an attitude adjustment, it's kind of silly to think that I'm going to tackle and hog-tie them one-by-one, in some sort of piecemeal, catch-all-the-pokemon strategy of criminal control. Too dangerous, and likely not worth the effort. I'd be better off holing up somewhere safe and waiting for the authorities to arrive.Either the cops get them or I give the popos the description and wish them good hunting. If there aren't any authorities anymore, I still don't see why I'd zip tie anyone. A couple rounds of "fuck off" would be more in order.

If I somehow become the main character in a post-apoc survival film scenario, and had to restrain an individual while I engaged in a tension-building philosophical argument with my equally attractive and sweat-glistening co-stars over the fate of the captive, all the while agonizing over whether pre-collapse morality and rule of law had a place in a post-collapse world, then, yeah, my zip-tie skills would be hella cool.*

*(NOT gonna happen...)
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by none1 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:12 pm

400 Grains wrote:As a long time cop, I think Doc has made several good points. Once the major threat has been dealt with, trying to restrain someone has a whole lotta down side to it.
I disagree. The concept of "once the threat has been dealt with" is key. We can keep making up stories on specific scenarios, but, really? Home burglar. Hurts a child in your house (say stabbing) and you confront him with a handgun, tell him to get on the ground. Now what? "wait for the cops" seems to be a common point in the thread. How about if the cops aren't going to be coming for hours, or days? Say you have others that can put restrains on said burglar while you cover from a safe distance.

Or say its a small local disaster, no food in grocery stores, no immediate LEO support, and small group of burglars. I can sit and cover them for days, or I can let them go ... trusting that as hungry as they are they won't come back .....

or
whatever.

Options are:
1) Let the threat walk away
2) end the threat
3) perpetual / long term cover of the threat with your firearm
4) restraint

In the absence of near time LEO support, is letting the threat walk away really always better than restraints?

Ok, so why are restraints bad again?
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by Das Sheep » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:39 pm

I would argue that if someone is stabbing your child and you confront them with a gun asking them politely to stop stabbing your child is probably the wrong response. I mean what sort of crazy mental state is someone in if they break into your house and start stabbing your child.

Its hard to handcuff people who don't want to be handcuffed. At least I think it is. And that was just practicing in training. I imagine someone resisting for real would be not fun at all.

Zip cuffs are pretty serious. If you need to zip cuff someone you should cuff them behind their back and have them lay belly down on the ground. Probably not going to get out of those things unless they are the hulk.

In most civilian situations there is very little reason to retrain someone against their will.

For instance: Someone breaks your $50 windshield wiper. You chase them down, take them down, and hold them down until the police arrive. They are potentially guilty of a misdemeanor. You are potentially guilty of felony assault, kidnapping and making terroristic threats. Now do I agree that you should be able to do that if someone breaks your shit? Sure. But really that guy can sue your ass and will probably win or settle out of court for a lot more than $50. If you zip cuff the guy (or zip tie him or duck tape him) then that's a whole slew of other questions as towards why you have that shit on your person when you are not a cop or a security guard. And what if you catch the guy and he has a knife. Maybe you get stabbed, maybe you shoot him and have to defend yourself in court as towards why it was ok to chase someone down and shoot them to death over a $50 windshield wiper.

My thoughts are that if you need to draw your gun, you probably need to shoot someone, or you didn't need to draw your gun. If you do draw it and don't need to shoot someone, maybe going to restrain them is not a great idea since it takes away your range advantage and you probably need to holster or set down your gun. If he resists on the ground then you probably shoot someone laying on the ground, which is also hard to explain to police. "Yeah, he broke into my house so I drew down on him and had him lay down. Then I tried to cuff him and he tried to get away. So I capped him." I can not imagine that most juries are going to look favorably on killing someone who is prone, even if they were a burglar. And if they are down on the ground you can just hold down on them with your pistol until the police show up. Its not like you need to cuff them so you can go make a sammich while you wait for the cops or something.

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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by Almighty » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:08 pm

Das Sheep wrote:Its not like you need to cuff them so you can go make a sammich while you wait for the cops or something.
Gave me a chuckle.

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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by ineffableone » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:15 pm

For all those saying "why would you restrain someone" or "restraining someone is dangerous" I agree. I did not post this to advocate restraining people. On the contrary the post was to show how easy it is to get out of zip tie restraints (non LEO Mil ones) and so showing how ineffective they are.

Two reasons for showing this.
In case you are stuck in them by kidnapper/home invader and to hopefully show that you can't rely on them to restrain someone for those who think restraining someone might be a good idea.

Like others have stated your a lot safer just keeping the person covered with your firearm than putting zip ties on them and thinking now they are restrained and so now safe.

Movies TV and internet makes some people believe that regular zip ties will work as well as the ones specifically meant to be used as restraints. This is not so, regular zip ties the small or big ones all can be defeated fairly easy due to inherent weakness in the locking mechanism. All it takes is a little ability to move your arms to beak free. The speed of how fast you can defeat these is amazing. If being held captive, you could break free and still have a huge element of surprise to overpower your captor or to run.
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:22 pm

none1 wrote: Or say its a small local disaster, no food in grocery stores, no immediate LEO support, and small group of burglars. I can sit and cover them for days, or I can let them go ... trusting that as hungry as they are they won't come back .....
So you're going to zip tie them for however long? Are you going to have a 24 hour watch on them? If you don't, they will get out. You going to feed them, take them for potty breaks, etc? That would get messy fairly quickly.
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by ineffableone » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:10 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
none1 wrote: Or say its a small local disaster, no food in grocery stores, no immediate LEO support, and small group of burglars. I can sit and cover them for days, or I can let them go ... trusting that as hungry as they are they won't come back .....
So you're going to zip tie them for however long? Are you going to have a 24 hour watch on them? If you don't, they will get out. You going to feed them, take them for potty breaks, etc? That would get messy fairly quickly.
Here is an idea, rather than restrain them, take their ID, and let them go. Telling them that you will be leaving a note with their ID for police to find if they try and return. If they don't return, then you will put their ID in a mailbox and it will be returned to them and cops will not be notified.

Sounds a lot better than shooting them or restraining them for days. I am guessing most desperate hungry people would take you up on this option.
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by none1 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:20 pm

ineffableone wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
none1 wrote: Or say its a small local disaster, no food in grocery stores, no immediate LEO support, and small group of burglars. I can sit and cover them for days, or I can let them go ... trusting that as hungry as they are they won't come back .....
So you're going to zip tie them for however long? Are you going to have a 24 hour watch on them? If you don't, they will get out. You going to feed them, take them for potty breaks, etc? That would get messy fairly quickly.
Here is an idea, rather than restrain them, take their ID, and let them go. Telling them that you will be leaving a note with their ID for police to find if they try and return. If they don't return, then you will put their ID in a mailbox and it will be returned to them and cops will not be notified.

Sounds a lot better than shooting them or restraining them for days. I am guessing most desperate hungry people would take you up on this option.

So, if someone breaks into your house, injuries a family member, and the police aren't going to be around for awhile, that the ZS consensus course of action is to let them go?

Do we do that with all looters, even small groups of 3 to 5 that break into your house? Let them all go?
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by ineffableone » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:09 pm

none1 wrote:
ineffableone wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
none1 wrote: Or say its a small local disaster, no food in grocery stores, no immediate LEO support, and small group of burglars. I can sit and cover them for days, or I can let them go ... trusting that as hungry as they are they won't come back .....
So you're going to zip tie them for however long? Are you going to have a 24 hour watch on them? If you don't, they will get out. You going to feed them, take them for potty breaks, etc? That would get messy fairly quickly.
Here is an idea, rather than restrain them, take their ID, and let them go. Telling them that you will be leaving a note with their ID for police to find if they try and return. If they don't return, then you will put their ID in a mailbox and it will be returned to them and cops will not be notified.

Sounds a lot better than shooting them or restraining them for days. I am guessing most desperate hungry people would take you up on this option.

So, if someone breaks into your house, injuries a family member, and the police aren't going to be around for awhile, that the ZS consensus course of action is to let them go?

Do we do that with all looters, even small groups of 3 to 5 that break into your house? Let them all go?
Well your senerio of someone stabbing a child would mean a dead body to deal with not someone to restrain. If there had been others in that group, I would imagine their dead friend has become a good deterrent to return.

But lets keep playing the what if game ok.

What if you place someone in zip ties, and you then let your guard down. They then break out of them as shown in the vidoes. Over power you and kill you, then go on to harm your family. Was it worth it to keep them restrained?

Or

You zip tie them but they don't know how easy it is to get loose. You feed them, you deal with their wastes, you deal with their pleading and crying for release. They struggled a lot damaging their wrists. When finally police do arrive 3 weeks later your child and wife are malnourished from having to share your supplies with your prisoners. Your prisoners are released and rushed to the hospital a long with you. While in the hospital you are arrested for imprisonment and mistreatment of the home invaders. While you and your wife are waiting for trial, your charges change to manslaughter due to one of the men dying due to injuries caused by the restraints.

or

Your keeping these men restrained, and their families show up and demand you give them back. These families outnumber and out gun you.

Or....

We can what if again and again through so many things.

If they are hurting your family, shoot them. If they are trying to enter your home, most places allow for lethal force to protect yourself. If you have caught them and they are stopped, and have only tried to take your stuff yes just let them go. It beats the alternative of caring for them or their family coming for you, or being charged with a crime for holding them.

I would not call this ZS consensus, just my opinion and the opinion of some others who have answered this thread.

*edit to add, At this point having encountered looters, it should be time to consider bugging out. The safety of your home is now not what it was once. If one group has come looting, there will likely be more. This is not the first time I have said such a thing either. Note the last paragraph which I bolded, where I say once your home is discovered by looters, it might be time to consider bugging out. If it is just you and your family in a home, your not likely to be able to post an effective guard to stay safe. Even if those looters don't return you will likely end up having wave after wave of looters coming through testing your home. Are you ready for that?

From Hiding Valuables from Looters and Burglars thread http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 6&t=110890
ineffableone wrote:I figure there is basically 2 types of looters.

First if they have eaten recently they will likely be semi rational and only after the easy chance for looting of empty homes. Often in this senerio just letting them know your place is occupied can be enough for them to skip your place. Typically the roving gangs are included in this category though they tend to need more convincing than just knowing your there, they need to know your capable of defending your supplies. Though when in a group and not solo, they pose the problem of marking your place as a place to watch and return to later after they run out of easy choices. The gangs can also present the "if I can't have it no one will" attitude and try to burn you out or other methods of just destroying what you are trying to protect. Which is something to serious watch out for.

Second however the truly desperate who hasn't eaten in a long time, or has a sick child Spouse they need to find medicine for can be more determined if they know you are surviving and occupying a place. To them they see this meaning (often rightly) that you have supplies and if they could just get access to those they are saved. This type of looter can be the scariest and most determined. Actually discovering your occupying a place and still surviving can make them loose all rational thinking. Instead of moving on to easier targets they can fixate on getting what you will not give them. These can take considerable force to dissuade. Or just might be diffused by giving them something from your supplies. This is a gamble, but someone like this tossed a small pack with a bit food and basic supplies can suddenly be snapped back into a thinking person. They at this point might listen to reason enough to leave you alone for a bit.

This gets to the point where your place has been discovered. Your occupying and hording supplies and people know it. This is dangerous. At some point if things do not return to normal the person you repelled will return. It is just too much of a draw. Now is a time to start thinking about Bugging Out rather than Bugging In. This is when you also want to serious think about stashing your valuables. You will not be able to watch your property 24/7. You need to sleep. If you have a family, how many will be effective as defense how many a liability and need protecting. How likely is it that you need to leave for some supply yourself? Do you have to go out to get water? What about wood for fires? At this point stashing what you can't take with you in walls, and other hiding places could be a decent idea. In fact this is one of the biggest things I would say hiding your valuables would be the best bet. When you have to bug out, if you can stash some of your valuables they might actually be there if you have the chance to return. If you have already set up stash spots, it is easier to stash away what you can't take. This is where stuff like the video about hiding things in the wood work really could be useful.
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drop bear
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by drop bear » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:52 am

Manually restraining someone for more than about five minutes is a big fat pain in the bum by the way.

If you have to hold a guy for longer than that finding something to tie them up with is not such a bad idea.

NWDub
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by NWDub » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:57 pm

use the big zip ties made for restraints or holding up ducting

standard zip ties are only rated for 45lbs, big ones maybe 90lbs. most of the ducting ones are rated for 150-300lbs

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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by strm_trpr » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:40 pm

Speaking as a former LEO handcuffing is one of the most risky activities engaged in by officers, and that is with quick to apply metal cuffs. I never carried flex cuffs because they are hard to apply, especially alone. Usually flex cuffs are used as part of an arrest team, one officer would apply the cuffs with multiple other officers watching with both lethal and less lethal support. Now that I am not an LEO I cannot think of any situation where I would cuff somebody, because, i do not have the proper backup. If an intruder in my house or mugger on the street gave up I would stand off at a good reactionary distance until LEOs arrived. In fact even when I was an LEO there were times that I stood off until i got a backup officer, and just had the perp chilling face down on the ground. A lot can go wrong during cuffing especially if the guy is a ground fighter.

That's my soap box.

That being said it is important to know how to get out of improvised flexcuffs because it is likely that some people may use them against you to take your stuff or even hurt your family.
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manowar1313
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by manowar1313 » Sun May 18, 2014 9:17 pm

74 or more wrote:
Image
Aren't these just heavy duty zip-ties? So when people say "zip-ties aren't good restraints because you can breakout of them", I say use bigger zip-ties.
I can kinda guess from the argument here that no one watched the LONG video. I will break it down for you, the police/military handcuffs ARE NOT zip-ties. They are fundamentally different, they have metal hooks that keep them from breaking.
Points of the video:
Probably not a good idea to use zip ties.
If you are in zip-ties, even the police ones, might as well try and break free.
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Re: The myth of zip ties for restraints

Post by ineffableone » Sun May 18, 2014 9:41 pm

manowar1313 wrote: I can kinda guess from the argument here that no one watched the LONG video. I will break it down for you, the police/military handcuffs ARE NOT zip-ties. They are fundamentally different, they have metal hooks that keep them from breaking.
Points of the video:
Probably not a good idea to use zip ties.
If you are in zip-ties, even the police ones, might as well try and break free.
Nice to see that someone actually did watch. thanks.
"Once a man has seen society's black underbelly, he can never turn his back on it. Never pretend, like you do, that it doesn't exist"

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