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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:54 pm 
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jnathan wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:

Raptor:
Aren't these statements you've made "political" as you've defined mine in a previous thread? Please send me a PM and explain the difference. I'm very curious. Really.


Since you opened the door, ODA, I'm going to step through it.

We would all do ourselves a big favor by remembering that text is a very poor medium for conveying the intention of our words. When you're talking with someone face-to-face you get non-verbal indicators such as their tone of voice. In text, the best we can do is to use italics. underlining, bold text and emoticons :) . All of which are a very poor substitute.

The wording of your message to Raptor could very easily be taken as sarcastic. On the other hand, regardless of someone's position within ZS and on the ZS forums, asking questions is a GOOD thing to do.

At the suggestion of NJDirtyNip (sigh, yes... that's his forum username) I'll paraphrase Bill S. Preston Esquire and Ted Theodore Logan by saying "be excellent to each other".

-Jeff


Jeff,
Just for general info here, this post was ABSOLUTELY intended to be sarcastic and abrasive! This is a very old post and Raptor and I have already worked through this. You can PM him for confirmation. :wink:
Craig

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:35 am 
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Now this here is a good example of why I joined this forum. You read the stuff that's written by the people who been there and done that, and ya might just learn something. I know more about what to do/what not to do in a post-disaster SHTF scenario than I did 15 minutes ago. Excellent OP, Raptor.

I have two good friends who are Katrina survivors. They are a semi-married couple and had just had a baby 3 months before Katrina hit. My buddy was out trying to find a way to get the baby formula about three days after the storm. One New Orleans cop told him to go ahead and grab a box of it out of a store, so he went in and grabbed it. On the way out, a different cop was standing there in the same place and ordered him — at point of shotgun — to drop the formula.

Goes to show ya — in a post-SHTF scenario, the boys in blue are NOT your friends. Stay the fuck away from them at all costs. Stay away from cops, stay away from looters, stay away from everybody. The people who tend to fare the best are the people who bug in — that is, they're prepared, they're in their own place/on their own property, and they're secure and prepared to defend.

And just remember if you do decide that you have to go out and walk around and experience the PAW for the adventure of it, it's an adventure your ass might not make it back from. Like walking through a war zone just to see what's a-happenin'. Carlos Mencia comes to mind .... DEE DE DEE!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Raptor,

Thank you for the post; it has been informative, but do you have another story about your experiences from Katrina? I did not see your story in the opening post.

Thank you.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:45 pm 
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PWA2600 wrote:
Raptor,

Thank you for the post; it has been informative, but do you have another story about your experiences from Katrina? I did not see your story in the opening post.

Thank you.

It's a great read and very informative.
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=16627

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:53 pm 
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I actually signed up based on this post, as I hope I have some good input to add to the conversation. During Katrina I was assigned to the 220th Military Police Colorado NG, deployed to New Orleans to carry out stabilizing operations. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of the arrest I made were local PD, hording relief supplies and looting to take care of there own families. And the other 20% would be media going where they were not allowed to be. Our marching orders were aid and protect the civilian population, and reestablish rule of law, through the use of marshal law. The whole experience left a pretty bad taste in my mouth for civilian law enforcement, and really exposed for me some of there training weakness. So here is my advice when you find yourself in that kind of situation. 1: If the local administration orders an evacuation....Leave! It’s very easy to go from "Defender of my house" to refugee when everything on your block gets destroyed by an act of God. 2: If you’re going to stay make sure you have not only suitable shelter, but all the supplies you need to pack in at least a month. I came across many houses that had the food, water, medicine, and responsible firepower to sustain a safe and healthy environment for an extended time. I also came across many houses that had wannabe Rambo’s looking to pick a fight with anyone who came near there property. Rambo was usually dumb enough to start trouble with a platoon of hardened vets fresh off a tour from Iraq, and he always lost. The well prepared and disciplined survivalist was not only allowed to carry on, some invited us in for a hot cup of coffee and have since become very good friends of mine. 3: And most important of all, Keep your head on a swivel and your eyes and ears open and sharp. In the modern day a total nationwide break down of law cannot be caused by a natural disaster, and even if the local government agencies can’t handle it, there are always more resources coming, and you will know them when you see them.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Raptor, thanks for posting this. I had family down in Mississippi when Katrina hit. We knew it was on the way, and since they live in southern MS, I had them "bug out" to my house in Tennessee well ahead of everything.
-Not there for the storm
-Were able to bring their firearms and other preps with them
-Were not caught in traffic jams
-No interaction with police or military units at all.

I agree with what many have said: If bad things are happening, be elsewhere. The time to "bug out" is before trouble hits. Worked well for my family.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:36 pm 
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Outlaw80401 wrote:
I actually signed up based on this post, as I hope I have some good input to add to the conversation. During Katrina I was assigned to the 220th Military Police Colorado NG, deployed to New Orleans to carry out stabilizing operations. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of the arrest I made were local PD, hording relief supplies and looting to take care of there own families. And the other 20% would be media going where they were not allowed to be. Our marching orders were aid and protect the civilian population, and reestablish rule of law, through the use of marshal law. The whole experience left a pretty bad taste in my mouth for civilian law enforcement, and really exposed for me some of there training weakness. So here is my advice when you find yourself in that kind of situation. 1: If the local administration orders an evacuation....Leave! It’s very easy to go from "Defender of my house" to refugee when everything on your block gets destroyed by an act of God. 2: If you’re going to stay make sure you have not only suitable shelter, but all the supplies you need to pack in at least a month. I came across many houses that had the food, water, medicine, and responsible firepower to sustain a safe and healthy environment for an extended time. I also came across many houses that had wannabe Rambo’s looking to pick a fight with anyone who came near there property. Rambo was usually dumb enough to start trouble with a platoon of hardened vets fresh off a tour from Iraq, and he always lost. The well prepared and disciplined survivalist was not only allowed to carry on, some invited us in for a hot cup of coffee and have since become very good friends of mine. 3: And most important of all, Keep your head on a swivel and your eyes and ears open and sharp. In the modern day a total nationwide break down of law cannot be caused by a natural disaster, and even if the local government agencies can’t handle it, there are always more resources coming, and you will know them when you see them.


That's a good post. This whole thread has been a good one. Very thought provoking. One thing those of us who've served in interesting places like Iraq and Afghanistan can tell you is that civilization is a thin veneer. Don't count on it when SHTF. You have the right to self defense and defense of your family, and short term, bugging in and staying out of trouble is probably best. But at the same time, civilization is EACH and ALL of us. In a longer term situation where there's enough of a breakdown that Fed and State and even civilian Law Enforcement is no longer very present, then do your part to support and maintain whatever order your community/neighborhood comes up with, even if you don't 100% agree with it. Hold it together. Encourage your little group to work as a team and to respect seniority and competency. Throw your support behind any local elected positions, councils, courts, legal codes, and the people in leadership positions. If most everyone is supportive, and the set up is reasonably just, then these systems will have legitimacy, because that only comes with "the consent of the governed." Be cooperative, respectful, willing to pitch in. And as TheLight said earlier in the thread, act with integrity. They taught us when very new Army recruits that integrity means doing the right thing, regardless of whether anyone's watching.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:40 am 
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Collie of Doom wrote:
Outlaw80401 wrote:
I actually signed up based on this post, as I hope I have some good input to add to the conversation. During Katrina I was assigned to the 220th Military Police Colorado NG, deployed to New Orleans to carry out stabilizing operations. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of the arrest I made were local PD, hording relief supplies and looting to take care of there own families. And the other 20% would be media going where they were not allowed to be. Our marching orders were aid and protect the civilian population, and reestablish rule of law, through the use of marshal law. The whole experience left a pretty bad taste in my mouth for civilian law enforcement, and really exposed for me some of there training weakness. So here is my advice when you find yourself in that kind of situation. 1: If the local administration orders an evacuation....Leave! It’s very easy to go from "Defender of my house" to refugee when everything on your block gets destroyed by an act of God. 2: If you’re going to stay make sure you have not only suitable shelter, but all the supplies you need to pack in at least a month. I came across many houses that had the food, water, medicine, and responsible firepower to sustain a safe and healthy environment for an extended time. I also came across many houses that had wannabe Rambo’s looking to pick a fight with anyone who came near there property. Rambo was usually dumb enough to start trouble with a platoon of hardened vets fresh off a tour from Iraq, and he always lost. The well prepared and disciplined survivalist was not only allowed to carry on, some invited us in for a hot cup of coffee and have since become very good friends of mine. 3: And most important of all, Keep your head on a swivel and your eyes and ears open and sharp. In the modern day a total nationwide break down of law cannot be caused by a natural disaster, and even if the local government agencies can’t handle it, there are always more resources coming, and you will know them when you see them.


That's a good post. This whole thread has been a good one. Very thought provoking. One thing those of us who've served in interesting places like Iraq and Afghanistan can tell you is that civilization is a thin veneer. Don't count on it when SHTF. You have the right to self defense and defense of your family, and short term, bugging in and staying out of trouble is probably best. But at the same time, civilization is EACH and ALL of us. In a longer term situation where there's enough of a breakdown that Fed and State and even civilian Law Enforcement is no longer very present, then do your part to support and maintain whatever order your community/neighborhood comes up with, even if you don't 100% agree with it. Hold it together. Encourage your little group to work as a team and to respect seniority and competency. Throw your support behind any local elected positions, councils, courts, legal codes, and the people in leadership positions. If most everyone is supportive, and the set up is reasonably just, then these systems will have legitimacy, because that only comes with "the consent of the governed." Be cooperative, respectful, willing to pitch in. And as TheLight said earlier in the thread, act with integrity. They taught us when very new Army recruits that integrity means doing the right thing, regardless of whether anyone's watching.


I should have read this posting when I first joined this group. Thank you Raptor for sharing your story and insights. It is still difficult to talk about my Katrina experience in any detail. It changed my opinion of local LEOs forever. A totally agree with your observations and those of others above. The only thing I would add, and this maybe controversial.
Don't be so critical on ALL "looters". We have all seen this famous photo comparison; if not here it is:
http://www.flagarts.com/faculty-staff/J ... atrina.pdf
Looting is wrong, it's stealing and should not be condoned. That being said, desperate people do desperate things. There is a big different between stealing a big screen TV during a flood, and taking water from an abandoned truck. I saw people attempt to drink that flood water because they were so thirsty . No one deserves to be shot, because their thirsty or starving during a Natural Disaster. Just my opinion.
Almost, a clear distinction needs to be made between a Natural Disaster and a true PAW situation. As bad as Katrina was, it was still only a Natural Disaster, be it the worst this country has seen. LEO while out of control at time, were still functional and had limited capability. The LA Riots of 1992, a different situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsKGhLdZuQ
After returning from NO, I spent several days volunteering at the Houston Astrodome. Thousand of volunteers , from all over Texas, came out everyday to help the evacuees, with tons of donated clothing, shoes and basic necessities. That outpouring helped restore some of my faith in my fellow man. My purpose for joining this group was to improve my knowledge and expand my survive skills, in the event of the unthinkable. Thanks Raptor for keeping humanity in our discussions.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:54 am 
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Omega DR wrote:
Looting is wrong, it's stealing and should not be condoned. That being said, desperate people do desperate things. There is a big different between stealing a big screen TV during a flood, and taking water from an abandoned truck. I saw people attempt to drink that flood water because they were so thirsty . No one deserves to be shot, because their thirsty or starving during a Natural Disaster. Just my opinion.


I don't think anyone here would disagree with your opinion. Good post!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:11 am 
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I agree that there is an argument for the distinction between looting a TV and bottled water. Both are undeniably wrong but obtaining drinking water through theft is at least arguably (not on this forum or in this thread however :wink:) understandable.

That said the the incident in question in the OP was triggered not by the theft and looting of the water truck but by the reports that the BGs were said to be using the stolen water truck as bait to attract people for the purpose of robbery and/or rape. That was the reason the LEOs showed up.
Not to stop the looting of the water truck.

The lesson was not to hang around an area where looters were engaged in the act of looting. If the LEOs show up you will be judged by the company you keep.

Finally I would also be remiss if I did not point out the obvious. Despite our ability to rationalize the fine distinction between the TV and water, that water belongs to someone else. They may value that water more than they value your life. Over the centuries I suspect a lot of people have been killed in conflicts over the possession of water rights. This something to keep in mind when you are determining the size of your water inventory. The simple and selfish act of self preservation suggests finding alternate sources of potable water.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:19 pm 
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[quote="raptor
Finally I would also be remiss if I did not point out the obvious. Despite our ability to rationalize the fine distinction between the TV and water, that water belongs to someone else. They may value that water more than they value your life. Over the centuries I suspect a lot of people have been killed in conflicts over the possession of water rights. This something to keep in mind when you are determining the size of your water inventory. The simple and selfish act of self preservation suggests finding alternate sources of potable water.[/quote]

No matter how well we prepare and stock up, the time may come when we must venture out and find a new source for water or other necessities. Over many a hot cup of coffee at the local Dennys the discussion of what to do in SHTF situation, one of the initial steps in our plan includes a rally point. I have some very close friends and family that I would want to help ensure the safety of. And as a group we stand a much better chance than alone. One particularly fun scenario revolved around having to bug out and head for the country side. Many cups of coffee later we not only had a list of the vehicles we would be taking, but the order of the convoy, distance to keep, how much fuel would be needed, and procedures to follow in the event the lead vehicle was stopped by bad guys looking to loot it. If you have to leave the safety of your shelter, roll deep. There will be far fewer bad guys looking to jump a group.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:25 pm 
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Outlaw80401 wrote:
...snip One particularly fun scenario revolved around having to bug out and head for the country side. Many cups of coffee later we not only had a list of the vehicles we would be taking, but the order of the convoy, distance to keep, how much fuel would be needed, and procedures to follow in the event the lead vehicle was stopped by bad guys looking to loot it. If you have to leave the safety of your shelter, roll deep. There will be far fewer bad guys looking to jump a group.


Welcome to the forum Outlaw80401. When you get a chance please go by the introduction thread and introduce yourself. :D

Rather than rolling deep plan ahead and avoid the need to travel to find a basic supply like potable water. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Fantastic thread, Raptor!

Both disheartening and enlightening at the same time. Unfortunately, the stories you provided made me even less trusting of LEO and their abilities/accountability than earlier.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:02 am 
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Outlaw80401 wrote:
During Katrina I was assigned to the 220th Military Police Colorado NG, deployed to New Orleans to carry out stabilizing operations.


Were you with the 220th MPs at Camp Okucani, Croatia in 1998 by chance?

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ODA 226 wrote:
Outlaw80401 wrote:
During Katrina I was assigned to the 220th Military Police Colorado NG, deployed to New Orleans to carry out stabilizing operations.


Were you with the 220th MPs at Camp Okucani, Croatia in 1998 by chance?


In 98 I was changing MOS from Medic to MP so I was in school when they went to Croatia. I tried extreemly hard to make that deployment but just could not get the schedule to work out.

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Outlaw80401 wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
Outlaw80401 wrote:
During Katrina I was assigned to the 220th Military Police Colorado NG, deployed to New Orleans to carry out stabilizing operations.


Were you with the 220th MPs at Camp Okucani, Croatia in 1998 by chance?


In 98 I was changing MOS from Medic to MP so I was in school when they went to Croatia. I tried extreemly hard to make that deployment but just could not get the schedule to work out.


Do you know anyone from 1st Platoon from back then, like SFC Joe Thill or 1 LT Jason Reed perhaps?

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Zombie Squad always stresses acting within the law whilst SHTF, because you'll be held to account whenever ROL is restored. This can take years, but it happens. Glad it happened in this case.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162- ... shootings/

The stress of a pseudo-apocalyptic / SHTF situation could probably tempt the most honest person to break the law, out of desperation, fear, or opportunism. There's a reason ZS says to fight that temptation.

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this is covered well in raptor's epic thread on Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60213

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phil_in_cs wrote:
this is covered well in raptor's epic thread on Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=60213

Yeah, I should have posted it as a reply to that topic - or, you know, checked to see if it was already posted. And "epic" is just the word for that thread, one of ZS' best.

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Outlaw80401 wrote:
And the other 20% [of arrests I made] would be media going where they were not allowed to be.


Not to be naive, but where were the press not allowed to be, and why was it necessary to infringe upon the freedom of the press?

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I merged Squinty's post to this thread.

Yes the LEOs involved in the Danzinger shoot and its subsequent cover up were sentenced today. There were other LEOs who pleaded guilty and turned State’s evidence. This is as it should be and justice hase been served.

This said this thread is not about the bad deeds of group of LEOs. It is not to criticize LEOs. In fact there were citizens who were prosecuted for street justice, if you can call it that. This person was one of the people who was arrested but not charged for his actions, for the simple reason he has a terminal medical condition and is not fit for trial. His story is in this link: http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/201 ... trial.html

This link is to remind those who think that like in Hollywood movies at some point in time that the rules of law will disappear and they will be able to do what they “need to do” and “take what they need”. This link will hopefully prevent someone from “going Hollywood” and committing an illegal act for which they will be held accountable.

It is very probably that we all will face a SHTF event however just because the feces is flying that does not mean the rule of law has been suspended.

So before you go Hollywood make sure you keep in mind that the odds are very good at some point in time you will be called upon to justify your actions and face legal consequences for these actions.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:53 pm 
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squinty wrote:
Outlaw80401 wrote:
And the other 20% [of arrests I made] would be media going where they were not allowed to be.


Not to be naive, but where were the press not allowed to be, and why was it necessary to infringe upon the freedom of the press?


Because it was a toxic spill area and in an effort to get some dramatic footage they put themselves, and my team in danger. Even going so far as pulling down barricades that were marked "Toxic spill do not enter" One even tried to tell me that he was a local and just wanted to take a picture of his house. The NBC News credentials around his neck and very expensive camera told a different story.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:10 pm 
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DarkAxel wrote:
And yes, running around in your cammies or mall ninja gear is a bad idea. You could even be charged with impersonating an officer or soldier after TS gets cleaned up.


+100

I always love post that start with. . .

If TSHTF I'll gear up, recon my AO and report the status back to the MAG. . . :?

That tells you to move on to the next post/thread. . .

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:33 pm 
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While unrelated to the incidents in NOLA the other shoe seems to have dropped on these guys and this seemed a good a place as any to drop this in there.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/10 ... rds-trial/
Quote:
Four former Blackwater security guards were found guilty Wednesday in the 2007 shootings of more than 30 Iraqis in Baghdad, and a federal judge ordered them immediately to jail.

In an overwhelming victory for prosecutors, a jury found Nicholas Slatten guilty of first-degree murder. The three other guards -- Paul Slough, Evan Liberty and Dustin Heard -- were found guilty of multiple counts of voluntary manslaughter, attempted manslaughter and gun charges.

The four men had been charged with a combined 33 counts in the shootings and the jury was able to reach a verdict on all of them, with the exception of three charges against Heard. The prosecution agreed to drop those charges.

The outcome after a summer long trial and weeks of jury deliberation stunned the defense.....



You pull the trigger, you own those bullets for life. It does not matter who you are.

Most of us who have lived in the profession of arms for years or decades understand this. Buying a gun and learning how to use it does not give you any better judgment. If trained policemen, military and special operator washouts can screw the pooch so can you.

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