Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:35 am

Just a quick update. The LEOs involved in the fifth incident were sentenced today. The federal Judge in his ruling said the the LEO who shot Henry Glover had no right to shoot a looter and sentenced him to 25 years in prison.

"You killed a man ... Henry Glover was gunned down because you believed he was a looter,"

The Judge rejected the extreme circumstance defense.

Africk noted that he had received many letters saying that as a result of Warren's conviction, officers will be more apt to question their right to protect themselves during chaotic events.

"I reject that argument."


Bear in mind LA has very pro self defense laws and strong castle laws. That being said this is a federal court and federal laws do apply. So if and when you find yourself in a SHTF situation you should assume that the laws of the land still apply and you shold govern your actions accordingly.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/201 ... recei.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:44 pm

Just a quick update. The federal trial related to the sixth incident listed in the OP has resulted in five guilt verdicts against the LEOs involved. The LEOs on the scene over reacted and shot innocent people. IMO that is both tragic and at the same time understandable. In a situation like that you lawyer up, tell the truth and hope for the best.

These folks though decided a cover up was the best approach and turned a very bad situation into an even worse situation for all involved. because of all of the lies and coverups the LEOs had no sympathy from anyone. What could have been a matter that was at worst a minor felony for the shooter mushroomed into many ex-NOPD officers spending a lot of time in jail.

The lessons to me are clear (and this is not directed at LEO's but especially to the ZS'ers who talk about shooting first and sing questions later...because after all TEOTWAWKI has occurred).

1) Do not shoot unless your actions are justified AND be prepared to prove it in a court of law.
2) If bad stuff happens document it, report it and be prepared to deal with the consequences of these actions.
3) The odds are excellent that if you are in a SHTF situation even if you think it is TEOTWAWKI, the odds are that rules of law still apply. Govern your actions accordingly.
4) If you are in a SHTF situation as I noted in the lesson of the OP. walking around sight seeing is not smart. Walking around armed is asking to get shot. If weapons had been found on these people even if they had not been fired I suspect that this case would have ended very differently. So stay inside in a SHTF situation...or better yet GTFO before the SHTF.


I am going to leave this thread unlocked for commentary. Please read the whole thread before commenting and above all this thread is not meant to bash LEOs. Comments bashing LEOs will be deleted. Also please do not judge the city of N.O. and the NOPD based upon the actions of the people in the referenced stories.

Link to news story update:
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/201 ... o_not.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by Dak Kovar » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:50 pm

Raptor,
I agree with your observations and I think that they are all very good points. In general, I think that this thread and the things that you have said are spot on. I've learned to trust your opinions on many things. Thanks for taking the time to post.

DK
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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by ei8htx » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:26 pm

Thnx for the update. I'm curious how many years they'll get.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by HKTackDriver » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:34 pm

I know it's already page 3, but I wanted to thank Raptor for providing excellent advice for those who believe they are part of the solution in the PAW only to become a victim of overzealous law enforcement. When cops get shot at, their outlook on the world changes. That outlook is, "better them than me." That includes anyone behind "them."

I live on a court, so if we had people near my location looting and rioting, I'm confident we can secure and patrol my block without police intervention. But I wouldn't chance running around outside with weapons visible. That's why you set up a communications network with neighbors - to report an incident to eachother and respond with necessary force - or lack thereof.

And these incidents and this excellent thread are proof positive on why you don't run around in cammies or mall ninja gear. It's also encouraging to me that maybe I SHOULD consider breaking out my ACU's and ID if I'm walking around armed. It may cause an officer to pause just long enough to ID me rather than shoot.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:44 pm

ei8htx wrote:Thnx for the update. I'm curious how many years they'll get.
There five other officers who pleaded guilty and cooperated with the prosecution for lessor sentences. They nevertheless faced serious charges including obstruction of justice, perjury and lying to a federal officer. They will likely get 3 to 5 years since they cooperated.

The other five convicted today face sentencing on multiple charges: Here is a list of charges and guilty verdicts.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/201 ... sheet.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know each of these have complicated sentencing guidelines but some have sentences that may be served concurrently and some consecutively based upon judicial discretion. I would suspect these guys will face the maximum penalties for the cover up since that was on going and particularly offensive to the community.


HKTackDriver wrote: I live on a court, so if we had people near my location looting and rioting, I'm confident we can secure and patrol my block without police intervention. But I wouldn't chance running around outside with weapons visible. That's why you set up a communications network with neighbors - to report an incident to eachother and respond with necessary force - or lack thereof.
Thank you.

However, this article highlights LEOs but they were not the only ones engaging in this type of activity. My article simply focused on these incidents.

When you arrange to get together with your neighbors you should keep this man in mind. He engaged in vigilante "justice" in the aftermath of Katrina. He was held accountable for his actions also.

A link to his story:
http://www.propublica.org/article/shoot ... shed-light" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


He was indicted and faces federal charges for his crimes. Though for health reasons he may or may not live long enough to be prosecuted.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/201 ... leads.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by Dak Kovar » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:21 pm

Interesting articles Raptor. Thanks for posting them.

DK
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"Well he should have armed himself...if he's gonna decorate his saloon with my friend."
"...And you can keep that silly fat wanker. The lads can't lift him."

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by deMaccusweil » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:32 pm

I agree with you absolutely Raptor, but please bear in mind what the Para's say when faced with an immediate do or die situation, even when you are not 100% clear. 'It is better to be in court than in a coffin'.

That should not always mean, whip em out if uncertain, but I'm sure I don't have to outline every scenario.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by TheGunslinger » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:45 pm

A similar saying is 'better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6'.
Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept. Who enjoys appearing inept? ~A Guide to Trial and Error in Government, Bene Gesserit Archive

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:54 pm

TheGunslinger wrote:A similar saying is 'better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6'.
The "judged by 12" aspect is the whole purpose of this article. :wink:

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by TheGunslinger » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:00 pm

True! :)
Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept. Who enjoys appearing inept? ~A Guide to Trial and Error in Government, Bene Gesserit Archive

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by gutterman1993 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:14 pm

Good read. I'd suggest in the beginning of the article to state what the abbreviations mean. I kne LEO and SHTF. was lost on the rest

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by evil0rphan » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:19 am

gutterman1993 wrote:Good read. I'd suggest in the beginning of the article to state what the abbreviations mean. I kne LEO and SHTF. was lost on the rest
There is actually a thread on that... wish I had the link.

And to Raptor... I want to say I feel bad you had to live through that, but at the same time I feel we are all fortunate you did, and you shared with us. It has really changed my game plan. I used to have the 'Mad Max' fantasies(we all do)... but I now realize that a more subtle approach is best. And it's really making me rethink my plans and preps. My 'next door' neighbor (about 100 yrd thru the woods) would be an optimal friend should something go south here. He thinks a lot like I do, but only in parts. Such as he's got a much larger arsenal, but nearly no food prep. I'm the opposite. I think he and I need to focus more on evening that issue out.

Anyway, thank you for sharing. "REAL WORLD" experience is invaluable, and your posts have been a massive reality check to us. Thank you.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by MPMalloy » Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:33 am

Raptor:

Thank you very much for posting your first-hand knowledge from Katrina. Your post has caused me to change plans for SHTF in my area and was very eye-opening all the way around.

UDAMAN!

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by Kevin108 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:46 pm

A lot can be said, however I think one simple sentence can sum it all up:

It's called bugging IN for a reason!

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by Dak Kovar » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:43 pm

This thread got me to thinking. If/when I'm ever involved in ANY type of bad situation after an emergency I plan on documenting it as best I can after things shake out and I'm safe. Photos, written witness statements and the names and contact info of anyone present (assuming that could be done at the time). I'd encourage them to write down what they saw and heard as they may be called as witnesses later. Yeah, I know, good luck but at least I plan on making an effort. As long as I act responsibly I should have nothing to fear from an inquest......right? (Yeah, I know). If nothing else it would show an effort and that by itself could help. Raptor, what is your take on that?

DK
"I don't wan't to be the ruler of this world... I want to be the ruler of another world."
"Well he should have armed himself...if he's gonna decorate his saloon with my friend."
"...And you can keep that silly fat wanker. The lads can't lift him."

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:54 pm

Dak Kovar wrote: As long as I act responsibly I should have nothing to fear from an inquest......right? (Yeah, I know). If nothing else it would show an effort and that by itself could help. Raptor, what is your take on that?

DK
If ( & I hope I never am) I am caught in such a position; my intention is to document the event truthfully and file a report with the assistance of my attorney ASAP. I will preserve my rights and seek legal counsel before I do anything though.

The people who tried to cover up their actions have thus far been nailed with the crime and additional obstruction of justice charges. The people who filed reports (for instance the Third Incident at the Convention Center) have not been charged with crimes thus far.They have been able to justify their actions and they reported the incidents.

If your actions are in any way justified (I assume they would be) the only way you can support that claim of justified violence is to report the incident. To do otherwise compromises your claim of lawful and justifiable violence. However seek legal counsel ASAP and certainly before you talk to any LEO. You have the right to remain silent and to let your attorney do the talking, utilize this right.

That said my intention is to avoid such situations in the future, if at all possible.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by Dak Kovar » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:21 am

This: "...legal counsel ASAP..." Good idea. That had not occured to me. Good advice, thanks.

DK
"I don't wan't to be the ruler of this world... I want to be the ruler of another world."
"Well he should have armed himself...if he's gonna decorate his saloon with my friend."
"...And you can keep that silly fat wanker. The lads can't lift him."

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by phil_in_cs » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:49 am

Dak Kovar wrote:This: "...legal counsel ASAP..." Good idea. That had not occured to me. Good advice, thanks.

DK
A basic item on defense lawyers: find out who is good and have them picked out before you have a problem. If you need counsel ASAP it is not the time to be looking through the yellow pages seeing which defense lawyers are good on traffic tickets and divorces.
Don't confuse a belligerent and aggressive attitude with the strength, training, and conditioning needed to prevail in a fight. How do you know you have the Will To Win, if you don't even have the will to train?

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by Dak Kovar » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:10 pm

Hahahaha good point. Well taken.

DK
"I don't wan't to be the ruler of this world... I want to be the ruler of another world."
"Well he should have armed himself...if he's gonna decorate his saloon with my friend."
"...And you can keep that silly fat wanker. The lads can't lift him."

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by raptor » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:04 pm

An update to the third incident outlined in this story. the two LEOs involved in this case were indicted for perjury in 201o and soon going to trial.

The reason this is interesting is that the charge is perjury stemming alleged lies they told during civil suit over the incident. They were not charged for the shooting. They reported the incident, filed a report in the matter and based upon documentation they were not charged with the shooting. If you remember in the OP there was a clear photographic image of a large pair of scissors next to the body.

The LEOs are alleged to have subsequently lied under oath at a civil deposition and they face charges over this matter.

Again because they reported the incident they are able to exert their claim of self defense in the matter. A good lesson on the value of documentation and being truthful in reporting the incident.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/201 ... g_inv.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by jnathan » Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:19 pm

sigboy40 wrote:One of the things that struck me was that walking around with camo on and with a rilfe was a problem, even the 'grey man' had issues as well. As Raptor had stated, your best bet is to hole up somewhere and be invisible.
I agree and would add that, if you have the means to leave and have advance warning then there's very little reason to not GTFO. Simply being somewhere else alleviates nearly everything Raptor referred to in the post.

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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by jnathan » Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:26 pm

As I was reading this post I was having some of the same thoughts. Regardless of the fact that I volunteer my time to my community and have received and given training, the collective amount of stress that everyone is under only magnifies the sometimes tenuous relationship between EMS/Police and non-EMS/Police responders.

I'm hardwired to lend aid wherever I can, but I want to live to lend aid another day as well.

-Jeff
Agent wrote:Don't know how I missed this thread until today, but another Indubitably, my good sir and/or madam. from me.

Unless it gets too heavy, I plan on bugging out, and recognize that if it gets bad enough that I feel the need to bug out, it might no longer be a safe option. Laying low is obviously the best option, but it might be hard for me to do at times. As a CERT and Red Cross volunteer, I want to help people if possible, but one thing they both emphasize in training is to avoid any dangerous situation and maintain personal safety as the top priority. In a SHTF situation, the stories in this post show that you can't really be safe anywhere other than isolated with your own people, but if you want to help you must assume some degree of risk. How much is up to personal calculation, but playing it safe is always the best option.
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Re: Responsibility and Accountability in a SHTF Situation

Post by jnathan » Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:31 pm

ODA 226 wrote:
Raptor:
Aren't these statements you've made "political" as you've defined mine in a previous thread? Please send me a PM and explain the difference. I'm very curious. Really.
Since you opened the door, ODA, I'm going to step through it.

We would all do ourselves a big favor by remembering that text is a very poor medium for conveying the intention of our words. When you're talking with someone face-to-face you get non-verbal indicators such as their tone of voice. In text, the best we can do is to use italics. underlining, bold text and emoticons :) . All of which are a very poor substitute.

The wording of your message to Raptor could very easily be taken as sarcastic. On the other hand, regardless of someone's position within ZS and on the ZS forums, asking questions is a GOOD thing to do.

At the suggestion of NJDirtyNip (sigh, yes... that's his forum username) I'll paraphrase Bill S. Preston Esquire and Ted Theodore Logan by saying "be excellent to each other".

-Jeff
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