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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:48 am 
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The standards for deadly force will not change but they may become more common. Property such as food will increase in importance for survival. So protecting property may well be protecting your life. And aside from legal standards you have to live with the consequences of your actions. I am not particularly eager to use deadly force. I have only come close to drawing my gun once, fortunately the bad guy dropped the knife. But it did confirm my dislike of crowds. You do have to weigh those things and avoid potential dangerous situations if possible.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:50 am 
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Great post Raptor. I think you were right on the money on every point. I also like the point Phil made.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:30 am 
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phil_in_cs wrote:
Cybrludite wrote:
I recall one of the JPSO deputies I know mentioning that he'd fired 300 rounds keeping back "looters" from the hospital I work for prior to the 82nd Airborne (I shit you not) showing up to provide security.


If I had time I'd set up a fancy math looking function, but basically if you have low training and high stress, the rounds used will approach the rounds on hand.

Meaning, if he'd had 20 mags instead of 10, he'd have shot off 600 rounds.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:09 am 
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This post dovetails nicely with some of the discussions I've been in recently. Namely, have your home prepared and being able to stay put as opposed to being out traveling. If you have water, food, power, you don't need to be out "gathering"

Things were ugly for miles in all directions after Katrina. While they had warning, I think that in many cases your just not sure if it's going to be bad enough to evacuate or will it be a short term thing?

If you don't get out early, then you sure don't want to try and get out late.

I also take note of the point about weapons and gear. I've seen many talk about having their armor on, dozens of mags, w/ hundreds of rounds strapped on with their rifle at the ready. Seems to me you'd be a bullet sponge for good guys and bad guys.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:02 am 
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Paladin1 wrote:
This post dovetails nicely with some of the discussions I've been in recently. Namely, have your home prepared and being able to stay put as opposed to being out traveling. If you have water, food, power, you don't need to be out "gathering"
SNIP
I also take note of the point about weapons and gear. I've seen many talk about having their armor on, dozens of mags, w/ hundreds of rounds strapped on with their rifle at the ready. Seems to me you'd be a bullet sponge for good guys and bad guys.

I would(theoretically in some situations) gear up like that at home in an extreme crisis situation and have the rifle either slung or extremely close at hand. But not if I had to go any distance from the house. It would be indoor only gear or concealable. One reason I am getting the uzi is it is more concealable than the sig 556.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:35 am 
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There is one additional point I neglected to mention. This may seem counter intuitive but bear with me on this.


The people who are now facing criminal charges are those who in effect tried to Shoot, Shovel & Shut up. This action alone is both illegal and counter productive if you have even a small shred of legitimacy for your actions. The facts are a powerful thing they remain absolute and despite the trying to hide it, eliminate it or ignore it, facts (truthful facts anyway) do not change.

With that in mind I would direct your attention to 2 different incidents the first is Braumfield incident. There was a full report of the incident eventually made. 3rd party photos actually showed the scissors that the man was likely holding next to his corpse. The participants likely overreacted but nevertheless they had reasonable proof that they could at least justify their actions were not criminal (I am only worried about criminal prosecution here not morals or civil liability). If they had attempted to shoot, shovel and shut up the tenuous justification they had would have been nullified (IMO).

Now compare this to the Glover case where the shooting was quite likely justified since it is likely Glover and his friends were trying to loot a store. Instead of rendering medical aid to a clearly mortally wounded (based on Tanners accounts) or even simply leaving him without medical aid. The LEOs clearly engaged in an attempt to cover up the shooting by torching the car. I do not think Glover was alive when they did that but I do believe they were trying to cover up the incident, since no report was filed. If a report had been filed and the whole incident would likely have been completely within legal limits.

Therefore the lesson I think we should all take from this is a simply business axiom. Bad news does not get better with time. If there is an incident during a SHTF situation you should to the greatest extent possible, document the incident and site.Then report it as soon as practical (perhaps waiting only until you speak to your attorney and provide him/her with the documentation you have obtained). Ideally 3rd party assistance should be used. Videotape the scene and any discussions with witnesses or what ever is sensible with time. Yes I know people will say this is just asking for trouble but if you are involved in a justifiable incident today, the first thing you should is call the LEOs. IMO this will not change in a SHTF situation. Besides you are already in trouble.

Covering up a justifiable incident will come back to bite you whether you are a civilian or on duty. My advice would also include consulting an attorney ASAP and not make any statements until he/she is present.

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Last edited by raptor on Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:58 am 
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I'll chime in on the chorus of 'Great Post, Raptor'!

There was another poster who noted that during a disaster where NG or regular military folks are called in to help maintain order, it is important to realize that their primary training does not (typically) involve domestic security or law enforcement. Considering that our 'shooters' in the armed forces (all branches, all components) are typically combat veterans with multiple overseas deployments at this point, I would be especially concerned with avoiding these types of security patrols. All things being equal, I imagine a combat vet is probably going to be more likely to shoot first and ask questions later in a Katrina like incident.

Let the nice soldiers and Marines do their part in restoring order, and avoid them like hell if at all possible!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:08 pm 
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You bring valid points Raptor. Just because it feels your world is coming to an end,does not mean it will stay that way. I have heard so many stories both before and after from people all over the coast. Mississipi got messed up too. They just didnt publicize much of it. I do know a lot of people who did as you suggested and laid low. I believe it is the most sound way to remain alive. Food for thought for us all tacticool could equal deader than hell.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:58 pm 
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raptor wrote:
perhaps waiting only until you speak to your attorney and provide him/her with the documentation you have obtained


Sorry, I know that post was completely serious and valid, but when I read that part, I thought instantly of seeing a slip and fall lawyer-like commercial a couple weeks after your area starts rebuilding.

"Were you involved in a societal breakdown? Did you have to shoot people that were trying to steal your MREs and water? Do you feel you were wrongly butt stroked by the shotgun of someone who you later discovered was a law enforcement officer? If so, ::pounding table in cadence with words for emphasis:: I WILL TAKE YOUR CASE!"

Okay, sorry, back to the serious and much appreciated thread.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Very interesting, raptor. Thanks for posting this.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Just a quick note on an update. This is really unrelated to the original posting but I think it is worth noting. Since it does impact the responsibility aspect of the post.

The Feds are now looking into two more of the incidents I cited in my post. The investigations involve the Brumfield and McCann shootings. Brumfield was killed in front of the convention center.

I also note that McCann survived the police shooting only to be murdered in front of his girlfriend's house in August 2008 in what is reported to be drug related shooting.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/201 ... ights.html

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:55 am 
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I'm going to make this thread a sticky for a while.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Great post, Raptor. Best I have seen in a long while.

As you know, being a mod means having to read everything. It just took me a while to get to this one.

Dogbane, do so NOW! :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:45 pm 
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Very hard to reconcile supporting your neighborhood and neighbors in a crisis with keeping your head down...
Thought provoking post. Might I suggest that folks should always behave with integrity, regardless of the situation.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:29 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:26 am 
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Thank you raptor.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:45 am 
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Don't know how I missed this thread until today, but another +1 from me.

Unless it gets too heavy, I plan on bugging out, and recognize that if it gets bad enough that I feel the need to bug out, it might no longer be a safe option. Laying low is obviously the best option, but it might be hard for me to do at times. As a CERT and Red Cross volunteer, I want to help people if possible, but one thing they both emphasize in training is to avoid any dangerous situation and maintain personal safety as the top priority. In a SHTF situation, the stories in this post show that you can't really be safe anywhere other than isolated with your own people, but if you want to help you must assume some degree of risk. How much is up to personal calculation, but playing it safe is always the best option.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:19 pm 
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raptor wrote:
There is one additional point I neglected to mention. This may seem counter intuitive but bear with me on this.


The people who are now facing criminal charges are those who in effect tried to Shoot, Shovel & Shut up. This action alone is both illegal and counter productive if you have even a small shred of legitimacy for your actions. The facts are a powerful thing they remain absolute and despite the trying to hide it, eliminate it or ignore it, facts (truthful facts anyway) do not change.

With that in mind I would direct your attention to 2 different incidents the first is Braumfield incident. There was a full report of the incident eventually made. 3rd party photos actually showed the scissors that the man was likely holding next to his corpse. The participants likely overreacted but nevertheless they had reasonable proof that they could at least justify their actions were not criminal (I am only worried about criminal prosecution here not morals or civil liability). If they had attempted to shoot, shovel and shut up the tenuous justification they had would have been nullified (IMO).

Now compare this to the Glover case where the shooting was quite likely justified since it is likely Glover and his friends were trying to loot a store. Instead of rendering medical aid to a clearly mortally wounded (based on Tanners accounts) or even simply leaving him without medical aid. The LEOs clearly engaged in an attempt to cover up the shooting by torching the car. I do not think Glover was alive when they did that but I do believe they were trying to cover up the incident, since no report was filed. If a report had been filed and the whole incident would likely have been completely within legal limits.

Therefore the lesson I think we should all take from this is a simply business axiom. Bad news does not get better with time. If there is an incident during a SHTF situation you should to the greatest extent possible, document the incident and site.Then report it as soon as practical (perhaps waiting only until you speak to your attorney and provide him/her with the documentation you have obtained). Ideally 3rd party assistance should be used. Videotape the scene and any discussions with witnesses or what ever is sensible with time. Yes I know people will say this is just asking for trouble but if you are involved in a justifiable incident today, the first thing you should is call the LEOs. IMO this will not change in a SHTF situation. Besides you are already in trouble.

Covering up a justifiable incident will come back to bite you whether you are a civilian or on duty. My advice would also include consulting an attorney ASAP and not make any statements until he/she is present.


Raptor:
Aren't these statements you've made "political" as you've defined mine in a previous thread? Please send me a PM and explain the difference. I'm very curious. Really.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Thanx for the post Raptor! We've followed the disaster on tv in our country but this is giving me some good background information.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:11 pm 
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Quote:
One incident that Foti's probe is focusing on took place at Amerihost Inn and Suites just days after the storm hit, said police spokesman Capt. Marlon DeFillo. It was captured on tape by a reporter from WAFB-TV in Baton Rouge and a photographer from WAFF-TV in Huntsville, Alabama.

Officials viewed the TV news video showing an officer reaching for a gun as he blocked media from a door to the 10th floor, where he and seven other police officers were thought to be staying, DeFillo said .(See the video behind the investigation -- 3:50)

The hotel's owner, Osman Khan, told CNN that on the night of August 29, when the city flooded, 70 police officers had moved into his Canal Street hotel. He said that 62 went out to fight looters and thugs on the streets, while eight launched a four-day drinking and looting binge.

"They'd leave [at] nine or 10 at night and come back 4:30 in the morning," carrying "everything from Adidas shoes to Rolex watches," Khan said.

The eight officers were drinking almost all of the time, said hotel engineer Perry Emery, and when he came to the men's 10th floor room to bring towels, he saw "jewelry, generators, fans."

"One time they came back with a bunch of weapons," Emery said. He said he had no doubts about what he witnessed: "These were New Orleans police officers -- looting."

One generator, Khan said, was stolen -- as he watched -- from Tulane University Hospital next door. He added that the officers ran an extension cord to a refrigerator in their room to keep their beer cold.

The reporter and photographer who confronted the police officer at the 10th-floor door reported that a source told them the people inside the room were New Orleans police.


from http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/29/nopd.looting/index.html

I never did figure out the mentality behind this. I mean, a hurricane wiped out NOLA, not the whole US. It did take the .gov awhile to move in and restore order, but they did. Just because YOUR world turned upside-down doesn't mean TSHTF all over the country.

EDIT: Clicked Submit too soon.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:32 pm 
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For your BO/Survival plans.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... ource=grid

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:42 pm 
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This subject was covered in depth in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60213

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:17 pm 
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Roger that. Found the PBS program on it "enlightening", thought I'd share. L&B as appropriate as a duplicate.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:49 pm 
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I will merge this post with the thread above rather than L&B it.

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