A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by Beanhead » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:24 am

7 pages went up fast, I just read this story a couple of hours ago.

Raptor posted earlier that someone in the schools chain of command may be trying to stick one to the kids (police chief) dad by going after his son. I actually thought about this while I was reading the story and have a gut feeling that's what's going on.

The totality of the circumstances don't seem to warrant the punishment that was doled out to this kid. If he had past behavioral issues then I would probably agree that he should be severly punished, but that doesn't appear to be the situation.

According to the article, the school seems to have violated it's own policy in regards to the childs due process, this is unacceptable. In real life, this would result in a dismissal of charges.

In real life, if rules are poorly/broadly written and not equally enforced, they are overturned and those that have been injured by them can seek compensation for their injuries.

The "Zero Tolerance" policy is not, in fact, truly "Zero Tolerance". There are knives in the cafeteria, there may be scalpels used to disect frogs, kitchen knives in Home Ec class, there is perhaps x-acto knives in the art classes or any number of chisel/saws/boxcutters/pointy sharp things in the wood shop. These are all tolerated everyday in many class rooms and handled by many students without punisment. Why is it then that a small folding knife, in a emergency pack, in a locked car, in a parking lot is grounds for suspension of that student?

If I lived in that district, I'd probably call the superintendent to voice my opinion. I'd probably call him at (518) 233-6850 ext. 3400. yup, that's what I would do.
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by LowKey » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:27 am

sheddi wrote:
slipangle wrote:Rights are inborn, not conferred upon you by another entity (religion and Lincoln aside).

I could write volumes on the importance of this concept and its implications. Do I need to?
This is a topic that has been taxing the greatest thinkers in philosophy for the past 300 years or so, without any conclusion reached being universally agreed upon. I'm guessing that even if you were to write volumes, you still wouldn't actually manage to prove your point to everyone.
Sorry....fixed that for ya! :wink:
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by Erik » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:31 am

Beanhead wrote:If I lived in that district, I'd probably call the superintendent to voice my opinion. I'd probably call him at (518) 233-6850 ext. 3400. yup, that's what I would do.
Awesome. I hope someone from ZS does call, even though I agree with the kid's suspension. I will be very interested to hear what the conversation is.

If you want to have any chance for headway, whoever calls shouldn't sound like a stark raving mad, frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic. Screaming at the superintendent like a drunk hillbilly will just reinforce in his mind that the policy is right. So talk the superindendent's office like an angry but civilized person if you want even the smallest chance to change the man's mind. Or his secretary's mind. Whoever you end up talking to.

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by LowKey » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:54 am

harleytrypp wrote:<snip>... for the past 9 years I have been sent a copy of the schools code of conduct. I have signed the statement that I have read and understand this "Code of Conduct" and returned it the the school adminstrator. Have I read the whole thing every year? no. Am I aware of what it says? for the most part, yes. <snip>
You haven't read the whole thing yet you sign your agreement and consent to abide by them?
That's like writing a blank check..... :shock:

As much as you seem to be on the side of the schools policy right now, by not reading the Code of Conduct that you agree to have your daughter abide by you open up the possibility that you and your child will be in a position similar to the one the young Eagle scout and his family find themselves in someday. All it would take is changing the phrasing of one rule ever so slightly.

I'm not hacking on you for this, just pointing it out.

One of the most important things I learned decades ago: NEVER sign anything you haven't read completely and are not sure you understand perfectly. If even a sliver of doubt exists pay the money and consult an attorney who specializes in that subject.
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by Erik » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:14 am

I don't think an attorney is required to go over a school code of conduct rules. Those rules tend to be common sense - things like don't start fights, don't cheat, don't yell obscenities at the teacher, be on time to class, follow the dress code, don't bring guns and knives to school. You know, obvious things like that.

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by JTNieman » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:19 am

sheddi wrote:
slipangle wrote:Rights are inborn, not conferred upon you by another entity (religion and Lincoln aside).

I could write volumes on the importance of this concept and its implications. Do I need to?
This is a topic that has been taxing the greatest thinkers in philosophy for the past 300 years or so, without a conclusion being reached. I'm guessing that even if you were to write volumes, you still wouldn't actually manage to prove your point.
Volumes shouldn't HAVE to be written. This country's framework specifically, exclusively, extensively, and clearly states that, here, this is how we roll.

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by LowKey » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:34 am

Erik wrote:I don't think an attorney is required to go over a school code of conduct rules. Those rules tend to be common sense - things like don't start fights, don't cheat, don't yell obscenities at the teacher, be on time to class, follow the dress code, don't bring guns and knives to school. You know, obvious things like that.
I didn't say that an attorney would be required to go over a school code of conduct. I stated that if you don't understand a legal document that before signing it you should consult an attorney.....doesn't matter what the legal document is, school code of conduct or business contract, if you aren't sure you understand it do not sign it.
If you haven't completely read the document you cannot be sure you understand everything it states.
“Political tags – such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth – are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by harleytrypp » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:05 am

LowKey wrote:
harleytrypp wrote:<snip>... for the past 9 years I have been sent a copy of the schools code of conduct. I have signed the statement that I have read and understand this "Code of Conduct" and returned it the the school adminstrator. Have I read the whole thing every year? no. Am I aware of what it says? for the most part, yes. <snip>
You haven't read the whole thing yet you sign your agreement and consent to abide by them?
That's like writing a blank check..... :shock:

As much as you seem to be on the side of the schools policy right now, by not reading the Code of Conduct that you agree to have your daughter abide by you open up the possibility that you and your child will be in a position similar to the one the young Eagle scout and his family find themselves in someday. All it would take is changing the phrasing of one rule ever so slightly.

I'm not hacking on you for this, just pointing it out.

One of the most important things I learned decades ago: NEVER sign anything you haven't read completely and are not sure you understand perfectly. If even a sliver of doubt exists pay the money and consult an attorney who specializes in that subject.
Read my post again, more carefully. I have read the whole thing, just not every year. If the date on the cover is new, I read it. Otherwise, it hasn't changed, I know what it says, and I sign. I a nut shell it always say... "weapons-NO, drugs-NO, fighting-NO, backtalking teachers/adminstration-NO, Absences/tardies-NO.... Sign Here _________ Date _______" and it of course describes some consequences. We know that weapons is broadly defined so make sure NOTHING she brings to school could possibly be defined as a weapon (again beyond the rediculous of pens, pencils, and she's not yet old enough to bring a lethal car to school).

I agree "don't sign anything you haven't read" and I have read, just not 9 times.
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by dogbane » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:25 am

Never sign anything you haven't read thoroughly, and never post a response to a comment you haven't read thoroughly. :lol:

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by kfdiesel » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:21 am

A sharp pencil resembles a weapon and can be used as a very effective one. But the student carries one without the intension of using it as a weapon. The small pocket knife was inaccesible and not possessed with the intension of using as a weapon.
Fucking lawyers win again on this one.

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by Erik » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:36 am

LowKey wrote:
Erik wrote:I don't think an attorney is required to go over a school code of conduct rules. Those rules tend to be common sense - things like don't start fights, don't cheat, don't yell obscenities at the teacher, be on time to class, follow the dress code, don't bring guns and knives to school. You know, obvious things like that.
I didn't say that an attorney would be required to go over a school code of conduct. I stated that if you don't understand a legal document that before signing it you should consult an attorney.....doesn't matter what the legal document is, school code of conduct or business contract, if you aren't sure you understand it do not sign it.
If you haven't completely read the document you cannot be sure you understand everything it states.
I can agree with you on that.

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by Baretta9 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:33 am

If the schools were really serious about the whole, "no weapons" issue, they really, really need to rethink their educational materials list.

What I had back in school that had more dangerous potential than a 2 inch swiss army knife.

(I will not describe how they could be mis-used as a weapon for obvious reasons but anyone with a sharp mind can CLEARLY figure out what kind of hazards they could pose to ANY person if not used for their intended purposes.)

- Protractor, metal
- Compass, metal (see link) http://www.theartistsdepot.com/images/S ... 1_40WP.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Scissors, metal
- Pen, metal and plastic
- Pencil, wood and graphite
- Most anything from the chemistry lab
- Most anything in the weight room by the football field
- Most instruments in the Band department (ever broken one of those down to it's base components to clean it?)
- Everything in the wood/metal shop building

I could go on, but I think you see my point.
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by CLEAR CUT » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:23 pm

useless info wrote:no offense Clear Cut but:

" I'm glad. He should face the same consequences as any other kid who broke that rule. He shouldn't be shown an ounce of leniency due to the fact that he's an Eagle Scout, honor student, dog catcher, space pilot, porn star, whatever. Why should he be cut slack when others in his position aren't?"

"Like it or not, we live in a world filled with double-standards. Get used to it."

your words not mine.

the way your talking you seem like part of the problem. I dont want to seem like the stupid american here but there were many times in our history when we could have said "get used to it"
but we didnt
None taken, but if you're going to try boarding the jump on Clear Cut bandwagon get your shit together first and quote the whole thing so as not to take things out of context.

I am glad this kid is going to be punished. Just like any other kid who commits the same offense. And why shouldn't he? Because he's a standout? Sorry, but I'm not buying it. In fact, if you read more carefully, I said I would hold him to a higher standard because he IS a standout and I would expect more out of him than the rank and file. And if you did quote the whole thing you might have seen this-->
CLEAR CUT wrote:
jtnieman wrote:
CLEAR CUT wrote:You have no rights that someone else doesn't give you and they can take those rights away at a whim without notice. Get used to it because there isn't a fucking thing you can do about it. And it's going to stay that way until the citizenry stands up and starts saying NO. We're not having this bullshit any longer.
Bullshit. Rights are naturally born. Rights are not currency that we're "allowed" to have by our 'betters'. Fuck anyone who disagrees. That's not opinion, that's straight fucking fact and I have no respect for anyone who doesn't understand that.
I wish it were bullshit but clearly it is not. Our rights are eroding one by one day by day. If you can't see that you need to have your eyes examined. Don't get me wrong, I agree that our rights should not be infringed upon. I am a realist though and it's hard not to see what's going on right before my eyes and it's not good. Like it or not, we live in a world filled with double-standards. Get used to it.
Pay close attention to the part in RED(*Hint* It's the part you ommitted when quoting me). And had you paid closer attention you'd see that I'm not down with our rights being infringed upon. And the BLUE part is how I said we as a whole could go about changing things. That being the case, how does that make me part of the problem? Oh, because I can call a spade a spade and see things for what they are and not what I would see had I not broken my rose-colored glasses. Grow up, man. The world isn't as rosy as we would like it to be.

Just a little more about myself, I'm not what you would call clean cut and without incriminating myself too much. I am a thought criminal and I don't always follow the rules. But, I am an adult and know the consequences of my actions and should I be caught doing something wrong I will man up and accept my punishment and not whine about it like a pussy. And I do go out of my way trying to change things I don't like so I am NOT part of the problem.

useless info wrote:the school board is probably destroying this guys dream over beuracratic bull. they dont care about the knife they care about losing their jobs, the same job that most people have because they actually care about these kids future.
The school board ruined nothing. This kid did by not paying attention to detail and because he didn't he's going to raise a stink claiming that this is a "witch hunt" and that he's being singled out because of who his family is.

Bullshit! THIS is the true problem. No one wants to take personal responsibility for their actions. They want to do what they want to do and when they get caught doing something wrong they want to claim ignorance of the law or that the law is unfair. Life is unfair and nothing ever goes the way we want it to. That, my friend, is the cold hard truth. Like it or not.

Now had he really cherished this "dream", he should have safegaurded it more carefully and made sure he followed the rules closely.

Take heart though, his "dream" isn't entirely shot to hell and as one of our other posters have said; he'll still be able to join the Army and given time possibly rise to the rank of officer. He just won't be attending West Point. Aww, life didn't turn out quite the way he wanted it to? Join the club kid, you're not alone.

So, no, there isn't any offense taken. I just want to make sure to clarify MY position and not be taken out of context.
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by useless info » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:15 pm

I didnt mean to quote you out of context I just wanted to point out those parts without quoteing your entire comment, I know whenever I see a quote I normaly go back and read the entire thing.

By the way I omitted more than that maybe you should highlight that in red as well

If you change things you dont like than why tell people to get used to things that they dont like

I realize life isnt a beautiful fairy land but that doesnt mean people cant use common sense(on both sides of the fence on this and so many other occasions)

sorry didnt realize there bandwagon, I hate those things(I get motion sickness)
im really sorry so many people have opinions that arent the same as yours get used to it because "Life is unfair and nothing ever goes the way we want it to. That, my friend, is the cold hard truth. Like it or not."
would you prefer if I quoted the entire thing?

once again no offense, but I just clarify MY opinion
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by stefan2004 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:44 pm

check this out, now schools think their jurisdiction works outside of schools aswell.

http://www.momlogic.com/2009/10/new_yor ... _rides.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PLEASE, tell me this is justified

looks like the PC brigade are now taking over the US aswell.

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by Glennbo » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:10 pm

Sometimes Zombie Squad disappoints me. Like when "boy scouts" think a Boy Scout isn't enough of a boy scout.

Before schools were totally wrecked I was taught that civil disobedience is honorable in the face of injustice.

And if you think a kid getting his future ruined because he has a pocket knife in his car isn't an injustice you have my complete sympathy for what I can only assume is a severe cognitive disorder.
Last edited by Glennbo on Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by Vicarious_Lee » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:39 pm

stefan2004 wrote:check this out, now schools think their jurisdiction works outside of schools aswell.

http://www.momlogic.com/2009/10/new_yor ... _rides.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PLEASE, tell me this is justified

looks like the PC brigade are now taking over the US aswell.
Yeah, the fact is that this has been going on for decades, generally very quietly. Most of us are just trying to quarantine the spread, but truthfully, things are going very badly.
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by JRR » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:52 pm

liberty45 wrote:That's not cool to bring any weapon to school even if it is in your car. That is something the child should have left at home. A lawsuit is a little over the top.

Don't get me wrong I am all for preparedness but come on bringing a knife onto school property? WTF was he thinking? "Oh it will be okay cause I am prepared!". Being prepared also means being smart and not raising red flags or causing unwanted attention. YOU DO NOT NEED A KNIFE TO SURVIVE! And if he "felt the need" he should have put an art exacto blade in his car and just say it was for an art project or something.

Suspension is sound but nothing more is needed IMHO. The kid learned his lesson and HOPEFULLY won't do it again.
What complete and utter bullshit. A knife is not a weapon. As the article stated, he probably had a tire tool in his car that's more dangerous than the knife. His history book is probably more dangerous. How the hell do they cook the kids' food? Bludgeon the meat apart? Do they play baseball there? A baseball bat could reasonably be considered a weapon. It's much more dangerous than a knife. And as far as "YOU DO NOT NEED A KNIFE TO SURVIVE!" - how are you going to start a fire, cut cordage, or skin a rabbit?

"And if he "felt the need" he should have put an art exacto blade in his car and just say it was for an art project or something."

Unbelievable, you condone lying to his teachers, but carrying a tiny pocket knife in his car is WRONG?

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by Abacus » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:13 pm

JRR wrote:
What complete and utter bullshit. A knife is not a weapon. As the article stated, he probably had a tire tool in his car that's more dangerous than the knife. His history book is probably more dangerous. How the hell do they cook the kids' food? Bludgeon the meat apart? Do they play baseball there? A baseball bat could reasonably be considered a weapon. It's much more dangerous than a knife. And as far as "YOU DO NOT NEED A KNIFE TO SURVIVE!" - how are you going to start a fire, cut cordage, or skin a rabbit?

"And if he "felt the need" he should have put an art exacto blade in his car and just say it was for an art project or something."

Unbelievable, you condone lying to his teachers, but carrying a tiny pocket knife in his car is WRONG?
A knife is a weapon. Deal with it. And it is a specific weapon that is specifically prohibited.

Tire tool, immaterial...sustained.
History book, immaterial...sustained.
Cooking knives (if they have them), immaterial...sustained.
Baseballbat, immaterial...sustained.

The issue isn't what else are weapons, or what would have been worse. The issue is that this little bugger knew the rule, and then broke it. That's all there is to it.

Others may complain about the efficacy of zero tolerance, or what is a weapon or let's give him special treatment, or how much common sense is used or how good or bad the school board is, and none of that matters at all.




And while you, or this little piker may feel the need for it, you don't need a knife to survive. Fire, cordage, or dress...flint or glass. Work on those skills ;)
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by codecowboy » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:22 pm

Of for the love of God....

There are sissors in that school bigger than that knife.
His car is a 3000 pound missle.
There is a tire iron in his car that is more dangerous
How about the bats that the baseball players use?

It was in his friggin CAR!!! Why ruin his life over something that was in his car!?!?!?

Superintendent needs to lose his job over this one.
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by JTNieman » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:26 pm

Dude.

You guys.

Seriously I don't think anyone realizes this yet. I haven't seen anyone mention it... but like

The SCHOOL has weapons more dangerous than that knife.

I don't think anyone's thought of this, but the BASEBALL BATS can be more dangerous than that knife.

I can't believe no one else has thought of this yet.

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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by Masterless Warrior » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:35 pm

:| I really was not going to add to this thread. But after reading some uneducated ignorant opinions by some I am now going to opine. First, how can anyone say that having a knife is not absolutely needed for survival??? Thats a rather arbitrary opinion. If only for the fact that by saying that your including every possible scenario in your conclusion. Furthermore. "He leaned his lesson"??? What lesson is that? That living a rightous life, being honest, ready for anything lumps you in with the illegal gun toting drug dealing "kids" that are "just disadvantaged". Please.
Now for a history lesson. KIDS. As in 4th graders etc used to carry/bring their 22 rifles to school with them everyday and on the way home they would hunt/plink. School shootings? Nope. Prohibitions on bringing "weapons" to school/ nope.

Fast forward to present. GOOD kids can't/don't bring guns to school. Because they aren't supposed to. The drug dealing little gang banger wanna be's do. prohibitions on bringing "weapons" to school? yep.They got'em. Depressed over medicated kids? Got'em.

Eagle scout/hero/Good Samaritan/breaking no laws/ = needs punished??????? WTF.......Not in my eyes. Lets explore this gem while we are at it.
He got hemmed up for having a small knife.
His classmate lets say has a tire iron, some aluminum baseball bats, his practice javelin, a shotput, and some laundry detergent in his car. This kid is considered ok and has no "weapons". But the kid with the small knife is....? Please... Help me to understand. It must be me.
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by shrapnel » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:58 pm

I believe that the point is, he was breaking the law, by having a knife on school grounds. It doesn't matter that a car or a tire iron or a pencil can be used as a weapon (which they most certainly can); the point is, knives are specifically banned from school grounds. The fact that he had his knife for survival or preparedness or because he wanted to knight a squirrel after school has no bearing on the consequences. The point is that he broke the (admittedly fairly silly and absurd) rules.

He wants to go to West Point? From what I can tell, being in the military often means following orders and rules that are fucking retarded. If some guy who is in charge of you wants you to dig holes and fill them back up, you do it. Why? Because it's the goddamn rules that you need to, that's why. Is it stupid and pointless? Yes. That does not matter, right? You don't get to ignore rules just because they're stupid, right? If you find the rules to be truly repugnant and utterly without merit, there are other, more effective ways to go about trying to get them changed. If the guy is really that worried about changing the rules at his school, he conceivably could have organized a petition, or gotten involved with the school board. If that didn't work, perhaps he could have helped to orchestrate a mass student protest- if everyone brought a knife in to school, they can't really suspend or expel everybody. Most school funding relies on having bodies in seats- threaten that, and school officials are suddenly much more likely to listen.

Instead, he willfully ignored the (stupid, but nonetheless present) rules. If doing so ruined his chances at getting in to West Point, then that's the way it is. He ignored the rules. They don't not apply because he's a good kid. His stellar performance prior to this incident doesn't really matter. Yes, maybe they were more harsh with the punishment than he deserved, but he still did not comply with the (ridiculous) rules set forth by the school. If you were caught carrying a personal weapon on a base (that is not allowed, yes?), would you expect or demand that they take in to account that you're a really nice guy? It would be great if they did, but you aren't entitled to leniency. Your previous status as a nice guy should certainly play a part in how harshly you are punished, but it shouldn't count as a 'get-out-of-jail-free' card either.
OTTB wrote:"What's that you're wearing?"
"This? Oh, just my rabies hat."
shrapnel wrote:Darling, I would never fondle your sphenoid.
Dr. Cox wrote: People aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.
JamesCannon wrote:Shrapnel, if you were a superhero, you'd be Captain Buzzkill Peener Pain.

rpc
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Re: A friend's son suspended from school for being prepared...

Post by rpc » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:16 pm

Several pages ago, I commented that the original article didn't say that "knives" were banned. It said that things that could reasonably be considered weapons were banned.

Somone posted the actual rule, and it did indeed say that knives were not allowed in cars.

I strongly suspect that this kid did not intentionally violate this rule. Chances are, he negligently violated the rule. He had a tool kit in his car, and when he put the knife there, it probably didn't occur to him one way or another that he was violating the rule.

The problem with "zero tolerance" is that it does not allow discretion in a case such as this where the violation is probably unintentional. Again, I think most people have some sort of tool kit in their car, and if it's like mine, it includes a small knife. The screw driver would probably be more dangerous as a weapon, but the orange object is indeed a "knife", and thus banned. Honestly, it wouldn't have occurred to me, even if I had read the rule in the past, that this tool kit was prohibited.

If I loaned the car to Junior to drive to school, then he would be in violation of the rule. In a reasonable world, Junior would get some sort of reprimand, he and I would apologize, and we would take the knife out of the tool box. But zero tolerance is not the same as a reasonable world.

Therefore, the time will come when I'll have to have a talk with Junior, just in case I make a similar mistake. For example, in answer to the question "do you have a knife in the car", hopefully he would be alert enough to think on his feet and say (truthfully, IMHO), "I don't have any type of weapon in my car." Or perhaps if he's not quite as quick on his feet, it would be better if he said (untruthfully), "no." If he was asked to consent to a search of the car, even if he had previously agreed to provide consent, then the best course of action would be to say (truthfully), "it's my dad's car, and he told me that I should call him before consenting to any search."

The big problem is that saying things like this, while they might be necessary and effective, don't provide much support with the concept of respect for the rule of law. Respect for the rule of law flows from the fact that those charged with enforcing the law will be reasonable most of the time. If they lack the discretion to be reasonable, it's one more chink in the respect they will get.

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