Long Term Water Treatment

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

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TheSnoo
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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by TheSnoo » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:48 pm

If you want info on survival w/no gear, check out this youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/abodudeman

Cody Lundin is a aboriginal survival skills expert, he teaches survival skills up in prescott. You could truly drop this guy naked into the middle of nowhere, and come back in a few days to see him cooking up a tasty stew over the fire outside of his new and very cozy looking wikiup. He also has a few books out:
98.6 Degrees: The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive
When All Hell Breaks Loose: Stuff You Need To Survive When Disaster Strikes

As an aside, I would like to add that this guy is not one of those so called "survival experts" who will teach you a few skills and tell you you're ready for anything. This guy is the real deal. He makes stone knives, eats rats, makes fire from sticks, The Whole Deal(tm). When he was going to college in prescott, he actually lived for two years in a wikiup that he had built outside of town.
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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by LowKey » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:29 pm

navarre1095 wrote:
TheSnoo wrote:Well, I keep my sawyer in my BoB/INCH bag. It doesn't take up much room at all.
Seriously, the Sawyer rocks. The WTP operators want one to play with. I wasn't bagging on your post. Whether we have the cool stuff or not, we will by necessity be the ones to teach the others.
I'd love for someone in the field <cough...navarre...cough> to get a hold of one of those and run some tests to verify the companies claims, at least on the filters effectiveness. Might be a bit of a challenge to run 1,000,000 gallons through it in a week or so :lol: so I suppose that could be skipped :wink:
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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by navarre1095 » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:55 pm

Here's one made with poop.
http://www.off-grid.net/2008/06/19/chea ... -everyone/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
WT4 Water Treatment license
DSL Distribution System (Large) license
ASO Industrial Waste Water license
NIMS 700

Long Term Water Treatment
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=51917" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Disaster Plan for Water Customers
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=50970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by Dawger » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:51 am

I'm resurrecting this old thread to ask a stupid question. :lol:

So, the high test calcium hypochlorite is good for treating water (high-test being a good option).

But, what about Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione and sodium hypochlorite?

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by Dawger » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:48 pm

I'll try more specific questions.

I bought some Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione and don't know if it is as effective as calcium hypochlorite or whether it isn't recommended for potable water treatment (OK for main drinking & cooking water). (same for sodium di-chloro)

I realize Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione tabs are slow dissolving, but in small enough quantities, can it be used? Any idea how long would the water need to sit?

Should the same amounts be used for Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione, calcium hypochlorite & sodium di-chloro for water (taking into account % of active ingredient)?

Obviously, I wasn't a chem major. :oops:

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by navarre1095 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:16 pm

Dawger wrote:I'll try more specific questions.

I bought some Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione and don't know if it is as effective as calcium hypochlorite or whether it isn't recommended for potable water treatment (OK for main drinking & cooking water). (same for sodium di-chloro)

I realize Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione tabs are slow dissolving, but in small enough quantities, can it be used? Any idea how long would the water need to sit?

Should the same amounts be used for Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione, calcium hypochlorite & sodium di-chloro for water (taking into account % of active ingredient)?
I don't believe that that's NSF approved for drinking water. Cyanuric acid can be a problem.
Anything over 4 ppm (Mg/L) of chlorine may make you wish that you had just drank straight from the creek

Just plain old bleach will do what you want. Or, you can make your own Sodium Hypochlorite.
http://www.swimforhim.net/9.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




http://www.swimforhim.net/9.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
WT4 Water Treatment license
DSL Distribution System (Large) license
ASO Industrial Waste Water license
NIMS 700

Long Term Water Treatment
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=51917" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Disaster Plan for Water Customers
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=50970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by Dawger » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:50 pm

Thanks navarre. I'll look for the right chlorine and not consider the tabs for use unless they are the last resort. That will teach me to run rush and not pay close enough attention.

I also like the idea of being able to make more chlorine, thanks.

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by stilagrrl » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:59 pm

Speaking of long-term water treatment, is it possible to use 500 - 1000 gallon water tanks such as these:

http://www.watertanks.com/category/367/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

to store water outdoors, for example, in the backyard area? Or would the sun beating down on them cause problems? We would treat the water when it's first stored and if necessary rotate it, but even then, rotating through 1000 gallons will take a while. Does anyone currently use these types of tanks for long term water storage? Not having a well or a stream/river nearby makes water our biggest achilles heel and it seems like this would at least mitigate the problem somewhat.

Thanks!

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by Benbrutal » Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:17 am

Could try one of these: http://www.waterwalltanks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with perhaps one of these: http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetail ... LO-300P24V" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You could make a nice bench with a long rectangular water tank, such as this: http://www.watertanks.com/products/0260-736.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
on your patio. Useful seating and hidden water storage. Add a solar powered ozonator to keep the water fresh.
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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by navarre1095 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:25 pm

Another generator site.
http://www.waterlootrinity.com/water_project.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
WT4 Water Treatment license
DSL Distribution System (Large) license
ASO Industrial Waste Water license
NIMS 700

Long Term Water Treatment
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=51917" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Disaster Plan for Water Customers
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=50970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by raptor » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:28 pm

navarre1095 wrote:Another generator site.
http://www.waterlootrinity.com/water_project.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is a neat unit.

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:50 pm

stilagrrl wrote:Speaking of long-term water treatment, is it possible to use 500 - 1000 gallon water tanks such as these:

http://www.watertanks.com/category/367/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

to store water outdoors, for example, in the backyard area? Or would the sun beating down on them cause problems? We would treat the water when it's first stored and if necessary rotate it, but even then, rotating through 1000 gallons will take a while. Does anyone currently use these types of tanks for long term water storage? Not having a well or a stream/river nearby makes water our biggest achilles heel and it seems like this would at least mitigate the problem somewhat.

Thanks!
My only argument against using this type above ground is the loss by evaporation as the sun heats the tank day after day. Heat will also raise tank pressure, which could decrease tank life. Night time cooling (freezing temps aside for the moment) will also lower tank pressure, easily to the point where it starts sucking in air from wherever it vented pressure during the day, possibly drawing in contaminants.
If you are going to invest in such a tank, I'd either install it somewhere inside an environmentally stable area (temperature rise and fall within a small range over a 24 hr period) or consider burying it, with a riser for water access. Burying a tank of water below the frost line will provide it with a relatively stable temperature range, and keeping it full will offset pressure differences from above- I'd still keep the traffic lanes away from right over ANY tank. Or closer than 10 feet to the side.
The cistern method of water storage is almost as old as Man, and is a proven method. Modern methods have helped to eliminate the problems the old stone-lined cisterns had, like purity, seepage, leeching, etc. Another advantage to the cistern method is that it's invisible- no one needs to know you have it, and properly installed, no one is going to accidentally find it, either.
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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by stilagrrl » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:08 pm

Benbrutal wrote:Could try one of these: http://www.waterwalltanks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with perhaps one of these: http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetail ... LO-300P24V" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You could make a nice bench with a long rectangular water tank, such as this: http://www.watertanks.com/products/0260-736.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
on your patio. Useful seating and hidden water storage. Add a solar powered ozonator to keep the water fresh.
Thanks for those links Benbrutal. I like that water wall tank and there's a wall next to my garage which should be perfect for it. I saw navarre1095 post about bromates forming in the water when you introduce ozone (O3) to water (although I guess it depends on how much bromide is in our water). I was just going to threat the water with chlorine when it's first filled.

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by stilagrrl » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:30 pm

KnightoftheRoc wrote: My only argument against using this type above ground is the loss by evaporation as the sun heats the tank day after day. Heat will also raise tank pressure, which could decrease tank life. Night time cooling (freezing temps aside for the moment) will also lower tank pressure, easily to the point where it starts sucking in air from wherever it vented pressure during the day, possibly drawing in contaminants.
If you are going to invest in such a tank, I'd either install it somewhere inside an environmentally stable area (temperature rise and fall within a small range over a 24 hr period) or consider burying it, with a riser for water access. Burying a tank of water below the frost line will provide it with a relatively stable temperature range, and keeping it full will offset pressure differences from above- I'd still keep the traffic lanes away from right over ANY tank. Or closer than 10 feet to the side.
The cistern method of water storage is almost as old as Man, and is a proven method. Modern methods have helped to eliminate the problems the old stone-lined cisterns had, like purity, seepage, leeching, etc. Another advantage to the cistern method is that it's invisible- no one needs to know you have it, and properly installed, no one is going to accidentally find it, either.
Thanks KnightoftheRoc, those are very good points. We live in an area that seldom gets below freezing so that won't be an issue. We can have temperature swings of 30 degrees or more, so that is a concern. The area I was thinking of putting the tank is in the shade of a large pine tree, so that should help moderate the temperature swings somewhat, but I'm sure on the hottest days for summer, evaporation would be a problem.

The issue with burying the tank is that 1) we have clay soil, so digging a hole that deep will be difficult and 2) our backyard is enclosed with a fence and while we could have a tank brought in over the fence, getting a backhoe in there means taking out part of the fence and probably cutting at least one fence post (they're cemented in). Then, of course, there are all of those roots from the large pine tree that we'd have to worry about. Perhaps we could build a covered shed to prevent direct sunlight, but it really wouldn't offer a temperature stable environment.

Anyway, all good things to think about before we pull the trigger on a tank. BTW, as I mentioned in another water post, we do have about 235 gallons of stored drinking water and 110 gallons of non-potable rain water, but at best, that's only a couple of months of water for us.

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:10 pm

Avoid the pine tree at all costs. Pine pollen seems to create an ideal breeding ground for mildew. Take a look around your town for a white building in the shade of pines- you can almost guarantee the shaded side will have mildew on it. Asbestos shingles are the worst, because they are porous. If the pine is a dominant feature of your yard, I'd go with the shed, and build it with air circulation in mind- a well vented shed will help on the temperature shifts by making them gradual, and it will also help with security. If you're going to build, consider stashing a generator in there as well, if you don't already have one.
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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by stilagrrl » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:38 pm

KnightoftheRoc wrote:Avoid the pine tree at all costs. Pine pollen seems to create an ideal breeding ground for mildew.
Wow, that is something I never knew before. It does answer one question I've had for a while...why do my pumpkins, peas and eventually, my zucchini get mildew on their leaves...you guessed it, my garden is also in the backyard and pine pollen must be the root cause. I can't see us ever getting rid of that pine tree, so I suppose I'll have to learn to live with it.

As far as a generator goes, we do have a small 2000 watt backup generator. Thank you so much for this valuable information. I guess we'll have to plan on putting in a small building to house the water tank in. Better safe than sorry.

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by ZombieKraft » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:34 am

A small item of importance:
Intermittently-operated slow sand filtration simple diagram of a generic sand filter
Until recently, it was considered impractical to operate a slow sand filter intermittently, due to the need for a continuous supply of food and oxygen. However, Dr. Manz of the University of Calgary re-designed the traditional sand filter, making it suitable for intermittent use at a household level. This adaptation, brilliant in simplicity, consists of raising the under drain pipe back up to between 1 and 8 cm above the sand level, ensuring a foolproof method for maintaining the water level just above the sand. Manz proved that, even when water is not continually added to the filter, oxygen can still permeate into the water to reach the organisms living in the sand by diffusion accross this shallow layer of standing water.
http://www.biosandfilter.org/biosandfil ... p/item/229" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by navarre1095 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Long Term Water Treatment
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51917
Disaster Plan for Water Customers
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50970
WT4 Water Treatment license
DSL Distribution System (Large) license
ASO Industrial Waste Water license
NIMS 700

Long Term Water Treatment
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=51917" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Disaster Plan for Water Customers
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=50970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by ZombieGranny » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:45 am

http://tilz.tearfund.org/Publications/F ... filter.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://tilz.tearfund.org/Publications/F ... ilters.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Before the modification, in case someone has no idea what a sand filter is:
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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by navarre1095 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:22 pm

Slow Sand Rocks!
WT4 Water Treatment license
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Long Term Water Treatment
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=51917" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Disaster Plan for Water Customers
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=50970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by kalos72 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:35 pm

Some the links provided I noticed that they use a first tank to let the water settle. That seems like a very good idea as long as there is a way to clean the bottom of that tank.

Any idea on how long that sand can last before needing to be replaced? Or do you just take some out, clean it and put it back in? I am wondering so that you can make sure you have enough sand in storage if its a consumed resource in a bio-sand filter system...

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by navarre1095 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:57 pm

That's covered in the articles. When the flow stops from the filter, you scrape of the top layer and wait two weeks or so for the biological layer to reform.
WT4 Water Treatment license
DSL Distribution System (Large) license
ASO Industrial Waste Water license
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Long Term Water Treatment
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=51917" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Disaster Plan for Water Customers
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=50970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:36 am

This is a very nice thread.

I would like to interject a few notes on water storage. Cisterns are very nice but if you live in area that is prone to flooding (even a 100 year flood), then an above ground, possibly roof mounted tank might make more sense. True people might see it but at least you will have water. The other advantage to a roof mounted tank is that you can make it gravity fed plumbing to your house therefore less pumping and hauling of water. If you shut off the inlet valve when there is no water pressure with most house you only have to apply enough pressure anywhere along the line to have enough to perform tasks like showering and filling toilets.

A connection to your municipal supply into your storage tank with an automatic pump that can be turned off is also an excellent idea. Suppose you are in a situation where the municipal water is good enough to drink but only flows a few hours a day? Having a storage tank would allow you to have water on tap 24/7.

Our cistern is not really hidden even though it is underground. It is located in the herb garden so almost anyone that visits us knows we have it. For us it is a backup system to the county water that after 8 years has yet to fail us. Useful for watering the grass, but that is about it. We are located along a very large water main that provides service to a large portion of the county. If it goes down anyone not on a well out here won't have water. We could drink out of it, I guess if we had to. We have sufficient back up filters to provide an ample amount of water.

Our water supply is safe but we run the house line through a cartridge filter to remove sediment and various other large impurities and then all the drinking water runs through a carbon filter. Since we don't use bottled water we run through a filter a year roughly on the drinking water and a filter a month through the sediment filter. In the unlikely even that the water is contaminated than it means no change to us. Cartridge filters are inexpensive and can save wear and tear on your plumbing lines (faucets and water heaters mostly) while providing you with a higher quality product. If you have ever looked inside and old hot water heater you will know what I am talking about.

One thing I am curious about. We have a very large creek running through the place that is also a water source upstream for cattle. There is likely fertilizer run off as well as ecoil from septic tanks in the ground near the water. I have considered digging a well beside the creek (only for extreme emergencies) and was wondering how well a sand filter would do against all of that (fertilizer, cow poop, human poop)?

The Army issued me something similar to this device except powered by two AA batteries.

http://www.waterlootrinity.com/water_project.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I never used it.
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KnightoftheRoc
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Re: Long Term Water Treatment

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:56 am

FWIW, when I worked in the plumbing dept. at Lowe's, Honeywell introduced a water filter which we carried.
It was pricey, around $350.00, if memory serves. However, it could save you money by not buying cartridges.
Ever. It had it's own electrically operated valving and timer system, which back flushed the filter on a regular basis- you could set the time from hours to days, and alter it at any time if you noticed a drop in pressure sooner than usual. A customer finally bought one, and knowing I was a plumber by trade, hired me to install it on my own time.

Installation was quite simple for anyone with even moderate plumbing skills. I'd love to say it was a job only a supremely skilled craftsman such as myself could pull off, but it's a Honeywell product- simply not the case.
It comes with a system of 3/4" unions that allow you to connect to almost any type of piping, threaded fittings or solder connections. The electrical aspects were quite simple- the transformer plugs into an outlet like a cell phone charger, and plugs into the timer. Everything was clearly labeled, and the directions were quite simple. The only thing that requires any extra attention is watching the flow direction when you install the actual filter housing, as it CAN be installed backwards. A separate drain line from the housing is then run to a sewer line, basement sink drain, or floor drain- a dirt floored basement could even let this go right onto the dirt, if it doesn't need to flush the filter too often.

A few weeks after installing it, I had to come back for a small leak. As it turns out, it wasn't one of my joints, but an older one that popped a joint while I was working on the lines. It happens to the best of us. I asked the customer how they liked the system, and their response was "it's great!". To this day, I've not had a call back on it, and this was 4 years ago or more. They still have my number, so I count this as a good thing.

I would strongly suggest this to anyone looking at installing a filtration system. It can cover a whole house demand, and will save you much more than the purchase and installation price over time by saving you the hassle of buying filters. It uses no extra materials, and very little electricity. If the power should fail, the back flushing can be done manually, and really- if there's NO power, how is your well pump running? The only disadvantage I can see to this system, is that it has to be mounted into the system AFTER the pump, so it cannot protect a well pump or pressure tank, as it needs to be on the pressurized side in order to accomplish the back flushing. The filter element has an excellent filtration rating.
More info can be found here: http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/p ... 2-3015.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm looking at a farm purchase, and if this works out, I'll be installing this system in my own home. I know the water in the area is heavy in lime content, and I don't mean it tastes citrus-ey. :D

ETA: This system is a sediment filtration system- if you need chemical or biological filtration, those would be separate units. If you were to install this after a reverse osmosis system, and before an activated carbon filter, and with a UV chamber, there's precious little that's going to get past it all. Carbon filters do eventually need replacing, but this unit installed before a carbon filter will greatly increase the carbon filter's life span. This is not intended to be a one-item-to-solve-every-problem type solution. and, of course, YMMV.
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