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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:29 pm 
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After five days managing near riots, medical horrors and unspeakable living conditions inside the Superdome, Louisiana National Guard Col. Thomas Beron prepared to hand over the dead to representatives of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Following days of internationally reported murders, rapes and gang violence inside the stadium, the doctor from FEMA — Beron doesn't remember his name — came prepared for a grisly scene: He brought a refrigerated 18-wheeler and three doctors to process bodies.

"I've got a report of 200 bodies in the Dome," Beron recalled the doctor saying.

The real total?

Six, Beron said.

Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide...


Full Story

What's most amazing about the overstated violence in NOLA after Katrina is how persistant the belief of the violence was.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:40 pm 
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While the violence was certainly overstated, it wasn't non-existant. It just wasn't happening at the Dome. One of the JP deputies I know says he fired about 300 rounds of 5.56mm in the week following the storm. For that matter, there's been persistent rumors that some of the more criminally inclined folks who were killed by "flying debris" during the storm were actually hit sometime soon after the storm by "flying debris" consisting of copper coated lead if they happened to be looting someplace the TV News cameras weren't...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:21 pm 
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Cybrludite wrote:
While the violence was certainly overstated, it wasn't non-existant. It just wasn't happening at the Dome. One of the JP deputies I know says he fired about 300 rounds of 5.56mm in the week following the storm. For that matter, there's been persistent rumors that some of the more criminally inclined folks who were killed by "flying debris" during the storm were actually hit sometime soon after the storm by "flying debris" consisting of copper coated lead if they happened to be looting someplace the TV News cameras weren't...


OK, this photo was never actually taken, it does not exist, it does not come from my camera and I will deny all knowledge of it :D

But some one working in the public interest took this shot on the Gulf Cost at some time in the past and it wound up as the desktop graphic on several government owned computers.

Some places, they still know how to deal with looters :D
(lets see if I can figure out how to make the image embed work)

Sorry about the size, if someone can tell me how to display it with sizing, I will be happy to fix it. (Thanks to Raptor for the assist on compressing the image)

-Bubba

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Last edited by bgnad on Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:39 pm 
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Cybrludite wrote:
While the violence was certainly overstated, it wasn't non-existant. It just wasn't happening at the Dome. One of the JP deputies I know says he fired about 300 rounds of 5.56mm in the week following the storm. For that matter, there's been persistent rumors that some of the more criminally inclined folks who were killed by "flying debris" during the storm were actually hit sometime soon after the storm by "flying debris" consisting of copper coated lead if they happened to be looting someplace the TV News cameras weren't...


Truer words have not been written. If you read my Katrina post you will see my Sgt Friday friend's remarks to this matter.

If you study the confirmed deaths you will notice groups of males under the age of 30 in clusters where the water was not deep. An unusual occurance for pairs of young males to die spontaneously, not proof of wrong doing, but something to consider.

My violence comment was indeed directed towards the SuperDome.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:21 pm 
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There was some looting of commercial areas in Orange and Port Arthur after Rita, but since Katrina was only 3 weeks prior many people stayed behind to guard their homes and businesses. All the commercial places that were looted that I know of were chain stores, where there was not a local owner.

Signs like bgnad's were common. KOGT has taken down the Rita photos; they had many photos of signs like that. As far as I know, no defended property was looted in that area.

It is very important to note that people act based on perceptions at the time. I can read now (Feb 2008) about the problems at the Superdome being exaggerated, but at the time, all the info anyone had (NO Police, FEMA, etc) said there were raped infants and the dead were stacked in the halls like cord wood. If I were there at that time, my actions would be based on that, not a two year later report.

And the LEO firing 300 rounds is totally believable. I was at the range a couple months ago, and some deputy sheriffs where there qualifying with FA M4s. Watching those guys for a while, I have to say in a stressful, poorly lit situation, the rounds expended will be equal to the rounds carried. 300rds is only 10 mags. DavePal has more than that in his first aid kit.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:32 pm 
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One thing that I think has to be understood is the chaos, confusion and stress that such a situation will bring. There may be an element who thinks this will cool, like the movies. However, this situation will be chaotic, stressful, the area will stink (go sit in a fast food dumpster for a few minutes in the summer for a good simulation).

These are things that you will have to deal with and help your family or group deal over come.

I went back in the archives and found some a good thread that shows clearly the chaos and confusion of the day. Today we know some of this is false but at the time who the hell knew? You would act on the information available to you at the time.

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... ht=#115770


By posting these links I am not being critical of any poster in any way.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:50 pm 
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raptor wrote:
One thing that I think has to be understood is the chaos, confusion and stress that such a situation will bring. There may be an element who thinks this will cool, like the movies. However, this situation will be chaotic, stressful, the area will stink (go sit in a fast food dumpster for a few minutes in the summer for a good simulation).

These are things that you will have to deal with and help your family or group deal over come.

I went back in the archives and found some a good thread that shows clearly the chaos and confusion of the day. Today we know some of this is false but at the time who the hell knew? You would act on the information available to you at the time.

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... ht=#115770


By posting these links I am not being critical of any poster in any way.


Amen brother!

As the military folks would say "it is never as good or as bad as the initial reports indicate."

Speaking as an Emergency Management volunteer, I can say with a great deal of confidence that getting good accurate information as to what is really happening is one of the hardest parts of the job. Equaled only be getting that information to the people who need it.

On just about every response I have ever worked, the level of inaccurate information running around is just amazing! And as Mark Twain said "A lie will get half way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."

-Bubba

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raptor wrote:
By posting these links I am not being critical of any poster in any way.


At the time, Sept 1 2005, you could hear the NO Mayor and Police chief saying the same things on TV. Much of it was proven not to be true, but they acted on it none the less.

I read a report of a news person on the roof of a police station, talking about taking sniper fire. Later, that was reported by other news people to have been a complete fabrication. Who knows?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:53 pm 
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raptor, thanks again for an amazing thread and invaluable insight and advice. I truly appreciate that time you've taken to not only collect your thoughts on these things, but also put yourself back in those memories to share the experience with us.

a big thanks to Dak Kovar, phil_in_cs, Moana Drifter, bgnad and the rest for also taking the time to do the same. I've bookmarked this as a great resource.

some random thoughts:

raptor wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:
People doing the bug out boogie that had nothing 'real' to fear will severely clog things up for everyone.

This is the herd mentality/panic at work. You see this in a lot of situations. .
I don't know, that seems a close call. On one hand people are being criticized for not acting soon enough and evacuating earlier. On the other hand they're being criticized for being overly proactive and evacuating when they shouldn't.

raptor wrote:
on cammies and "ninja" dress.... it screams to the people in charge "HEY EVERYONE I NEED ADDITIONAL NEGATIVE ATTENTION ALONG WITH AN EXTRA HELPING OF HASSLE ME".
It's my understanding that in a ZPAW situation you want to look capable but not confrontational, friendly/harmless but not an easy victim, prepared but not loot-worthy. That's a difficult line to walk, but I imagine you dial up or down certain traits as needed.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:58 pm 
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some questions...

BTW, what are these "water shoes" raptor and Dak Kovar spoke of?

Say that despite super human efforts you still end up in a shelter, or you have absolutely no choice but to stay in one. Can those of you with volunteer or shelter experience comment on the following?:

1) - how do you increase your odds of being able to keep your gear when either being transported or entering the shelter?
(say you have a camelbak/daypack and a larger hiking pack or regular backpack)

2)- would they confiscate small knives like camping knives or swiss army knives?

3) - how do you secure your gear at night?
(same amount above) When I slept in hostels I'd padlock my pack to the mattress springs under the bed/cot. I'd keep all money and ID in either a neck pouch or inside the pillow case of the pillow I was sleeping on. I wonder if those would be good techniques in a shelter as well

4)- how much at risk would you be for getting rolled for your gear, as opposed to a little sticky fingers here and there? and what kinds of things are likely to get stolen from fellow refugees?
My thought is that if you show up with even a small pack and people start to see you're prepared (you seem to have the basics that you need, or can share), then they may start wondering what else you have that they want/need. Or justify theft with the thought that you obviously would be ok without.

5)- how do you repack, get things out, or put them away discretely so as not to show what you have?

6)- how do you change clothes and handle toilet biz while (a) not dropping everything on the dirty wet floor and (b) keeping your gear with you?
When I'd use the shower facilities at campgrounds I'd bring one of those small plastic over-the-door hooks with me (like what you'd hang a coat or door wreath from). I'd hang it over the bathroom stall door or shower bar and use that to hold my shower bag and clothes while getting ready. Would such a thing work in shelters?

7)- how do you wash clothes (such as for clean underwear) and where/how do you dry them?
I'm guessing this is done in a sink, but I don't know if there would be water rations or time limits in the facilities. Would you just walk around holding your wet undies til they dried?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:12 pm 
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Y.T. wrote:
raptor wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:
People doing the bug out boogie that had nothing 'real' to fear will severely clog things up for everyone.

This is the herd mentality/panic at work. You see this in a lot of situations. .
I don't know, that seems a close call. On one hand people are being criticized for not acting soon enough and evacuating earlier. On the other hand they're being criticized for being overly proactive and evacuating when they shouldn't.


At times there is a fine line between having to bug out and panic. In the case of Hurricane Rita I know people who lived in the North Woodlands who were advised that evacuation was not necessary, yet they bugged out and got caught in the mother of all traffic jams. These people should have stayed put.


Y.T. wrote:
raptor wrote:
on cammies and "ninja" dress.... it screams to the people in charge "HEY EVERYONE I NEED ADDITIONAL NEGATIVE ATTENTION ALONG WITH AN EXTRA HELPING OF HASSLE ME".
It's my understanding that in a ZPAW situation you want to look capable but not confrontational, friendly/harmless but not an easy victim, prepared but not loot-worthy. That's a difficult line to walk, but I imagine you dial up or down certain traits as needed.


I would suggest Mall Ninja attire is more of a liability in any situation. Personally I will strive for invisibility (not literally obviously) but will settle for obscurity. I would not want to call excessive attention attention to myself so that I can go unnoticed doing whatever it is I have to do.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:51 pm 
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Y.T.,
Picture slippers made of rubber bottoms and mesh sides. They are sold at Wal-Mart and sporting goods stores. You can wear them to the shower and inside the shelter. Wear boots outside as there were ALWAYS needles tossed about outside and needed to be picked up everyday.

Getting a 'shelter buddy', if you are by yourself, is important as it gives you a way to get things done without schlepping your whole kit around the shelter. Doing laundry, getting food, bathroom runs and the like work better with a buddy. You have to trust them and they you.

Pack and repack your things after lights out. They always keep enough light to keep an eye on things for people's safety. Pack then and it will be difficult for others to see what you have. Having some trade items such as smokes or gum/hard candy can help get 'favors'.

While in the army I have slept with my leg draped over my ruck. They would have had to wake me do steal from me. I was never disturbed that way. I would also drape my towel over my ruck so people didn't see what was under it. Out of sight, out of mind.

You can do a wear one/wash one rotation on undergarments. Either in the sink or the shower if no other option is available. Likely there may be 'something' available to wash clothes. Having a mesh bag is a good thing and I keep extra plastic grocery bags around for such things.

HTH,
DK

BTW- This is one of my favorite threads, this and the Katrina thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:04 pm 
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raptor wrote:
I would suggest Mall Ninja attire is more of a liability in any situation. Personally I will strive for invisibility (not literally obviously) but will settle for obscurity. I would not want to call excessive attention attention to myself so that I can go unnoticed doing whatever it is I have to do.

yep, I'm with you on that. sorry, I don't think I made it clear that my previous post was agreeing with you and adding on to the idea. :) I sometimes worry that my preferred bugout wear might look a little too G.I. Jane: cargo pants and men's A shirts, usually in tans or greens. It's just comfortable and practical and what I'd wear camping anyway. And while I'd hardly be confused with someone in the military by anyone with 2 brain cells left, I do wonder if it might look to aggressive or poseur-ish.

I have to say the idea of being unnoticed is something I even used to strive for when I lived in the city. Coming and going from a club at 4am, by myself, in an abandoned part of town was not the time for me to be prancing around in my club clothes announcing "HEY, SINGLE FEMALE WALKING ALONE AND UNARMED WITH NO ONE ELSE IN SIGHT!" ;) I used to wear baggy track pants and big hoodie over my club wear, then shed them once I got inside and check them at the coat check. If I found myself walking home alone late after being out with friends I'd turn my bright red fuzzy vest inside out so the black lining was showing and put the hood up for the same reason. If I was riding the subway at 2am I sat wide legged and leaned back casually.

I think the balance is to attempt to be inconspicuous without looking like you're trying to hide. The latter can be a signal to some that you're vulnerable or weak, looking like you're afraid of being picked out instead.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:29 pm 
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Dak Kovar,
thanks! that was very helpful. :)

Dak Kovar wrote:
Having some trade items such as smokes or gum/hard candy can help get 'favors'.
I've often thought it might be a good idea for me to tuck a pack or two of cigs into my gear. as a non-smoker it might offer me a loss-free trade item.

Dak Kovar wrote:
While in the army I have slept with my leg draped over my ruck. They would have had to wake me do steal from me. I was never disturbed that way.
thanks. :) when traveling I've often stuck a leg or arm through the bag straps then looped them over once for similar reasons.

Dak Kovar wrote:
You can do a wear one/wash one rotation on undergarments. Having a mesh bag is a good thing and I keep extra plastic grocery bags around for such things.
I was thinking the same thing about the wear one/wash one. I often bring a mesh bag camping to let damp sponges or clothes air dry first. It hadn't occurred to me that if pressed, I could always hang the bag from my belt while it dried. And I usually have a stash of plastic grocery bags, but this gives me more reasons to include them.

Dak Kovar wrote:
This is one of my favorite threads, this and the Katrina thread.
agreed. they're both so info-packed and honest. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:10 pm 
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Y.T. wrote:
I think the balance is to attempt to be inconspicuous without looking like you're trying to hide. The latter can be a signal to some that you're vulnerable or weak, looking like you're afraid of being picked out instead.


As a middle aged, white male my attire would clearly be a bit different than yours. However, I have found that a jumpsuit with a corporate logo, a clip board with work orders and a white pick up truck with a commercial license plate and corporate logo (note make sure it matches the logo on the jumpsuit) on the side makes me almost invisible in an urban environment.

I suspect something along the same line would work for you also.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:28 pm 
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raptor wrote:
I have found that a jumpsuit with a corporate logo... makes me almost invisible in an urban environment. I suspect something along the same line would work for you also.


oh my gawd, if you only had an idea of how funny that is to say to me. my friends would crack up if they read that. I am the jumpsuit.. ahem, speedsuit... queen. I love jumpsuits. I've made several, I've bought several, I own a sizeable variety. but NONE of them would even remotely instill an sense of authority in anyone. and they REALLY wouldn't be inconspicuous. we're talking shiny, bell bottoms, day glo, faux fur. hee hee hee hee hee he he he heee heee hee.

*whew*

sorry, the thought of me roaming around all survival-like post apoc in one of those jumpsuits is just killing me.* hee hee.

an-y-way...
I noted that when you mentioned it elsewhere, either here or in the other thread. I was trying to figure out what the Y.T. equivalent would be. Between my bf and I we have power of stealth design skills (faking letterhead, car vinyl, signage, etc.), so that's a plus. but we're a zero on the vehicle. A Golf hatchback doesn't exactly scream "corporate authority". ;) I'll need to ponder that some more.


* Secretly, I kind of hope that the ZPAW happens on halloween so everyone has to live out their days in crazy costumes and the wasteland world at least looks "fab-u-lous, honey!"

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:05 pm 
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Y.T. wrote:
I noted that when you mentioned it elsewhere, either here or in the other thread. I was trying to figure out what the Y.T. equivalent would be. Between my bf and I we have power of stealth design skills (faking letterhead, car vinyl, signage, etc.), so that's a plus. but we're a zero on the vehicle. A Golf hatchback doesn't exactly scream "corporate authority". ;) I'll need to ponder that some more.




Package delivery/courier services frequently use compact cars for delivery. These delivery people generally wear knit sport shirts with a logo. Get a couple of sports shirts and magnetic signs for the vehicle. All you need is a clip board with delivery orders on it. Who pays attention to or bothers couriers? Viola a low profile urban image.

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Nope a hatchback just won't cut it, you need a middle aged slightly dinged up white F150

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ZS0069 gets some good parking out of the ford urban stealth. 8)

Y.T. wrote:
raptor wrote:
I have found that a jumpsuit with a corporate logo... makes me almost invisible in an urban environment. I suspect something along the same line would work for you also.


oh my gawd, if you only had an idea of how funny that is to say to me. my friends would crack up if they read that. I am the jumpsuit.. ahem, speedsuit... queen. I love jumpsuits. I've made several, I've bought several, I own a sizeable variety. but NONE of them would even remotely instill an sense of authority in anyone. and they REALLY wouldn't be inconspicuous. we're talking shiny, bell bottoms, day glo, faux fur. hee hee hee hee hee he he he heee heee hee.

*whew*

sorry, the thought of me roaming around all survival-like post apoc in one of those jumpsuits is just killing me.* hee hee.

an-y-way...
I noted that when you mentioned it elsewhere, either here or in the other thread. I was trying to figure out what the Y.T. equivalent would be. Between my bf and I we have power of stealth design skills (faking letterhead, car vinyl, signage, etc.), so that's a plus. but we're a zero on the vehicle. A Golf hatchback doesn't exactly scream "corporate authority". ;) I'll need to ponder that some more.


* Secretly, I kind of hope that the ZPAW happens on halloween so everyone has to live out their days in crazy costumes and the wasteland world at least looks "fab-u-lous, honey!"

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:17 pm 
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raptor wrote:
Y.T. wrote:
I noted that when you mentioned it elsewhere, either here or in the other thread. I was trying to figure out what the Y.T. equivalent would be. Between my bf and I we have power of stealth design skills (faking letterhead, car vinyl, signage, etc.), so that's a plus. but we're a zero on the vehicle. A Golf hatchback doesn't exactly scream "corporate authority". ;) I'll need to ponder that some more.




Package delivery/courier services frequently use compact cars for delivery. These delivery people generally wear knit sport shirts with a logo. Get a couple of sports shirts and magnetic signs for the vehicle. All you need is a clip board with delivery orders on it. Who pays attention to or bothers couriers? Viola a low profile urban image.


+1 !

That's a good one I had not thought of! :oops: I am obviously standing too close to that box while I'm thinking!

Also a Pizza/Chinese/whatever food delivery sign would work with a car like that, we get a lot of odd ones around here.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:27 pm 
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raptor wrote:
Package delivery/courier services frequently use compact cars for delivery.
raptor wrote:
Also a Pizza/Chinese/whatever food delivery sign would work with a car like that


pardon me, I think I just died of comic irony.

give me a minute...




ok. I'm back. ;)



and YES, those are both excellent ideas! made even more impressive by their simplicity. Thank you so much for the suggestions. I feel like I need to be baking cupcakes or something and mailing them out to you folks for all the help I've gotten here. which I would do, if I actually baked. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:29 pm 
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apologies, I don't mean to get wacky or flippant in a thread about such a serious topic that deserves respect. I think I had too many freezy pops today. all that sugar.

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bgnad wrote:
Also a Pizza/Chinese/whatever food delivery sign would work with a car like that, we get a lot of odd ones around here.


That could work but the people you run into may want the food and a package courier needs only a readily attainable sealed manila envelope with some papers in them to show the officials whereas a pizza delivery vehicle needs a pizza. Even better yet put a label on your BOB and claim that is what you have deliver. :D

Actually the fact you did not think about the delivery service is a good sign. It shows how they just kind of blend into the background noise, which is exactly what is needed.

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Y.T. wrote:
apologies, I don't mean to get wacky or flippant in a thread about such a serious topic that deserves respect. I think I had too many freezy pops today. all that sugar.


Well.....
I'm not offended :) and I'll bet Raptor is not either.

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raptor wrote:
bgnad wrote:
Also a Pizza/Chinese/whatever food delivery sign would work with a car like that, we get a lot of odd ones around here.


That could work but the people you run into may want the food and a package courier needs only a readily attainable sealed manila envelope with some papers in them to show the officials whereas a pizza delivery vehicle needs a pizza. Even better yet put a label on your BOB and claim that is what you have deliver. :D

Actually the fact you did not think about the delivery service is a good sign. It shows how they just kind of blend into the background noise, which is exactly what is needed.


Good point on the Food :!:

And if your BOB was built around one of the "courier" style bags, it would work even better.

Yep, come up with a good generic logo, a mag sign, a dark polo shirt with same logo, khaki pants, a bag and some stuff and you could walk in and out of a lot of places.

I knew a guy at Fort Sill back when Dinosaurs ruled the earth, who grabbed a buddy, gave the buddy a clipboard with paper, then took off his rank tabs and walked around with said buddy pointing at things while the buddy wrote.

No one stopped them. No one asked them what they were doing. He even got some solutes out of the deal.
I knew this guy before, during and after his service, while I was not with him at the time, I don't think he made up the story.

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