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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:25 am 
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Thank you very much!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:56 am 
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EBuff75 wrote:
I printed each page to .pdf and then merged them all into a single document (link below) for those who would like a copy of this thread for themselves. Sorry that the post numbers don't show, but that option appears to be turned off right now on the boards, regardless of the board style being used. If you find any errors in the .pdf (pages out of order), please let me know and I'll try to fix it (I kept all the original pages). I think that they're in the proper order, but it was still a lot of piecing things together, so there could be mistakes. Apologies in advance.

Warning for the bandwidth challenged: This file is nearly 9Mb and is 458 pages long, so download responsibly!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ktAV ... sp=sharing

Enjoy!


Thanks for that, I'll be perusing it as time allows.

I still think it'd be worth it for the Powers to install a mod to allow an entire thread to be downloaded... some searching last night revealed that such things do exist.

After all, come TEOTWAWKI, we won't be able to log on and study any more!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:43 pm 
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To be fair, they weren't bugging out to Wal-Mart; just stopping in for some supplies.

Quote:
Armed men in body armor at Walmart tell police they are preparing for Doomsday

LEXINGTON, KY.
Police were called to the Richmond Road Walmart Saturday night after a witness noticed a car full of men in body armor holding semi-automatic weapons. A six-month old baby was also in the car.

Lt Jackie Newman said when Lexington police officers got the three men out of the car at about 11:15 p.m., they said were preparing for Doomsday and needed supplies. The men were armed with pistols and semi-automatic rifles, police said. A license is not required to have semi-automatic weapons in a car, police said.

Police also found marijuana in the car.

All three subjects voluntarily came down to police headquarters for questioning that night, said Lt. Richard Willoby of the Lexington Police Department. They were given a citation for the marijuana but were not charged with any other violations, and were later released.

Willoby said police took photographs of the car and the weapons in order to complete a report to the Cabinet for Health and Family Services because of the baby in the car.

“There appeared to be nothing criminal,” Willoby said. “They’re in the mindset of preparing for the end of the world, accumulating weapons and things like that, but the weapons appear to be legally owned.”


"No, no, we said bong-making materials!"
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:33 pm 
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A good example of what we have discussed other places about having illegal things on your person. If the EOTW really were on it's way then the fearless well armed crew would have spent it in the slammer.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:16 pm 
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A minor marijuana charge may not be a big deal, and everything else they had might have been perfectly legal, but I'm still getting the hunch that there's a family in Kentucky about to be torn apart, or at least about to face a long, uphill legal battle against child protective services.

I mean, for fuck's sake, people...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:23 pm 
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Hmmm... I think someone is in need of a remedial course in operational security...among other needs. :clownshoes:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:00 pm 
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dogbane wrote:
To be fair, they weren't bugging out to Wal-Mart; just stopping in for some supplies.

Quote:
Armed men in body armor at Walmart tell police they are preparing for Doomsday

LEXINGTON, KY.
Police were called to the Richmond Road Walmart Saturday night after a witness noticed a car full of men in body armor holding semi-automatic weapons. A six-month old baby was also in the car.

Lt Jackie Newman said when Lexington police officers got the three men out of the car at about 11:15 p.m., they said were preparing for Doomsday and needed supplies. The men were armed with pistols and semi-automatic rifles, police said. A license is not required to have semi-automatic weapons in a car, police said.

Police also found marijuana in the car.

All three subjects voluntarily came down to police headquarters for questioning that night, said Lt. Richard Willoby of the Lexington Police Department. They were given a citation for the marijuana but were not charged with any other violations, and were later released.

Willoby said police took photographs of the car and the weapons in order to complete a report to the Cabinet for Health and Family Services because of the baby in the car.

“There appeared to be nothing criminal,” Willoby said. “They’re in the mindset of preparing for the end of the world, accumulating weapons and things like that, but the weapons appear to be legally owned.”


"No, no, we said bong-making materials!"
"Oh, well, carry on, then."


What I find most disturbing about this story, that a group of people with no visible violation of the law were stopped and searched until some violation was found.

They were stupid for being all tactically dressed, yup definitely. But being dumb and dressed tactically is not probable cause to search a vehicle. The cop even said “There appeared to be nothing criminal,” so why did they do a search of the vehicle? My guess is the cops pressured the group with taking the baby if they did not consent to a search.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:07 pm 
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ineffableone wrote:
They were stupid for being all tactically dressed, yup definitely. But being dumb and dressed tactically is not probable cause to search a vehicle.

Perhaps related, perhaps not, but we're already so far off topic what the hell:

When my daughter was very young and I occasionally felt insecure about my parenting skills, I'd wander over the nearest Walmart on a Saturday night and just observe.

I'd walk out of that store inside of 15 minutes feeling like the goddamn Father of the Year.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:45 pm 
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Quote:
What I find most disturbing about this story, that a group of people with no visible violation of the law were stopped and searched until some violation was found.

They were stupid for being all tactically dressed, yup definitely. But being dumb and dressed tactically is not probable cause to search a vehicle. The cop even said “There appeared to be nothing criminal,” so why did they do a search of the vehicle? My guess is the cops pressured the group with taking the baby if they did not consent to a search.


Ah well you see, marijuana is illegal IAW Federal Law and illegal in most states by sate law including TN... Not surprisingly most people keep it hidden. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that you can't SMELL it. Most times weed, especially good weed has a unique smell.

So how would all that work? Someone calls the police and reports six heavily armed people in the Walmart parking lot. Given the number of terror attacks these days the police will go check it out. The police make contact with the driver. So how does that play out?

Andy- "Hey fellas wahtchall doing?"
Outoftowner- "We are preparing for the end of the world."
Andy- "Hopefully not today..."
Everyone- *Giggles*
Andy- "Hey uh fellas... What's that smell?"

Things kind of go down hill from there....

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:19 pm 
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This thread could be livened up again by inviting Lord Rahl back.... :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:36 pm 
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Barghest wrote:
They're everywhere around here, have cafeteria's well stocked with enough food to feed hundreds of students for weeks at a time, have water and milk if the power's not out,

So, I dunno about your schools - the ones where I am (and a lot of other places) contract with an outside service which does just-in-time delivery of that day's food and no more, there are facilities to hold the food and possibly reheat it. Hate to burst your bubble, but this is yet another example of why a lot of us do not plan to use resources not in our direct possesion. Improvisation may need to happen, but planning to improvise isn't the way I'd recommend going.

&while some schools may have some attractive defensive features when considering zombies, they are all different. Be fun to see that play out as a zombie movie, especially since schools can be a rallying point for communities.

(IRL? There's trespassing issues there...)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:57 pm 
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duodecima wrote:
So, I dunno about your schools )


Are you responding to the ten year old post or something from 2016?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:54 am 
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teotwaki wrote:
duodecima wrote:
So, I dunno about your schools )


Are you responding to the ten year old post or something from 2016?

Weel carp. I thought I was responding to something just posted but apparently cannot navigate forums well. Never mind...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:20 am 
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duodecima wrote:
teotwaki wrote:
duodecima wrote:
So, I dunno about your schools )


Are you responding to the ten year old post or something from 2016?

Weel carp. I thought I was responding to something just posted but apparently cannot navigate forums well. Never mind...


Although you had a point about the schools I think the real motive of the thread was to encourage folks to build their own stockpile at home. Also to forget the idea of looting from stores and warehouses that a million other unprepared folks are descending upon.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:04 am 
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duodecima wrote:
Barghest wrote:
They're everywhere around here, have cafeteria's well stocked with enough food to feed hundreds of students for weeks at a time, have water and milk if the power's not out,

So, I dunno about your schools - the ones where I am (and a lot of other places) contract with an outside service which does just-in-time delivery of that day's food and no more, there are facilities to hold the food and possibly reheat it. Hate to burst your bubble, but this is yet another example of why a lot of us do not plan to use resources not in our direct possesion. Improvisation may need to happen, but planning to improvise isn't the way I'd recommend going.

&while some schools may have some attractive defensive features when considering zombies, they are all different. Be fun to see that play out as a zombie movie, especially since schools can be a rallying point for communities.

(IRL? There's trespassing issues there...)



duodecima wrote:
teotwaki wrote:
duodecima wrote:
So, I dunno about your schools )


Are you responding to the ten year old post or something from 2016?

Weel carp. I thought I was responding to something just posted but apparently cannot navigate forums well. Never mind...



Don't worry about it. Your point was valid when the original quoted post was made and even more so today. Good advice stands the test of time. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:08 pm 
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Instead of trying to copy what is good here into a PDF why not copy it over to the Wiki?

https://www.zombiehunters.org/wiki/inde ... rt_Bug_Out

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:20 pm 
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What ransacking Walmart will look like at the start of the PAW












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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:18 pm 
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I may have mentioned this before but Walmart is the epicenter of crime in most small towns and cities. Drug deals, assaults, theft, abductions, DV fights all take place at Walmart. A lot of departments have a mini-police station in the Walmart to handle all the reports there as well as to make arrests that are a frequent occurrence.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:23 am 
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(Note: if this discussion goes somewhere it might need its own thread)

Duodecima and I were chatting via PM and the exchange led me to this train of thought:

1. I've been a good ZS'er, prepped well, hunkered down during the opening months of the PAW and made it through.
2. The Feds have yet to ride in on white horses so I start kicking in longer term activities for growing food.
3. Having survived another six months or so I've used up certain stored items and added group members.
4. We need to expand and that requires things we don't have. The Feds are never coming. It is truly TEOTWAWKI.

When do we start to salvage the remains of the world? For a start I looked up "abandoned property" and "salvage":

Abandoned property: an overview

Personal property left by an owner who intentionally relinquishes all rights to its control. Real property may not be abandoned. See Adverse Possession.

At common law, a person who finds abandoned property may claim it. To do so, the finder must take definite steps to show their claim. For example, a finder might claim an abandoned piece of furniture by taking it to her house, or putting a sign on it indicating her ownership.

Many jurisdictions have statutes that modify the common law's treatment of lost or abandoned property.

In the context of intellectual property, abandoned property refers to the relinquishing of intellectual property rights by an owner, thereby allowing others to use the intellectual property without protest. For example, an inventor who does not register a patent to his invention relinquishes the patent rights associated with his invention, allowing others to use his invention freely and without recourse.



The Wiki on Salvage is an interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_salvage

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:33 am 
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teotwaki wrote:
(Note: if this discussion goes somewhere it might need its own thread)

When do we start to salvage the remains of the world? For a start I looked up "abandoned property" and "salvage":

Abandoned property: an overview


Buried somewhere in the 50 some odd pages of this very thread is a similar discussion. This thought process comes up elsewhere occasionally.

The general stance of ZS is that all property belongs to somebody and even abandoned property belongs to someone. Taking someone else's property is stealing and we do not discussing stealing, raiding or borrowing other property.


That said the reasoning behind this bears repeating.

The first flaw is that valuable property will simply be left available for taking. That you will be able to go "shopping" and find what you want. Odds are good that things of value will be consumed, stolen and other wise misappropriated long before your time frame passes. In Hollywood this is not the case but in instances like Katrina the only things left were not exactly valuable or usable. See the videos linked in the post above.

The second point is that even after such a long period of time, property that you may claim as abandoned may latter be reclaimed by the original owner who will not be very happy. What you may see as TEOTWAWKI may actually not be the case and you may be held accountable for your "salvaging" efforts. This thread is an adult thread that deals with people who though TEOTAWKI was upon them. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60213

Finally what you may consider to be abandoned my actually be in use at that point in time. The owner may be nearby keeping an eye on it and would take a dim view to your salvage efforts.

In Hollywood things are very clear ... there are 10 people left alive and millions of zombies. In the real world these things are not so obvious. It is best to plan for an ambiguous situation and make sure you have what you need for the long term.

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Last edited by raptor on Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:39 am 
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FAKE EDIT Raptor is clearly reading things & posting right before I do! :lol:
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As interesting as this is, it gets really fraught really fast ime.

You propose a scenario 6 months in. People have second houses/vacation properties etc that they may not visit for at least 9 months, or even a couple years - can we claim them? Um, NO. It takes me a year and a half to get to my folks place because it's far away - I still consider myself the heir and rightful owner if they're dead. Raptor had some really good examples/comments about this kind of thing in the Katrina thread (or was it a different but related thread?) about people thinking rule of law didn't apply in Katrina & some of them finding out how wrong they were about that.

In the event of an actual TEOTWAWKI, or even just a disaster, we're all just going to have to use common sense about the specifics of our own situations - but people sometimes start thinking/acting like it's TEOTWAWKI at really low levels of problem. Or frankly there are people looking for an excuse to get away with things they'd like to be able to do. I think, in the end of TEOTWAWKI, I would end up assuming for a fairly long time, that I was going to have to answer for/justify anything I did because ROL would eventually return, and I would choose my actions based on that.

(The scenario I was thinking of in the PM envisioned a neighborhood school as a community rallying/defense point - I may not have explicitly stated it, but I was imagining it with the permission/cooperation/leadership of people with authority to allow community use of school property.)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:51 pm 
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duodecima wrote:
(The scenario I was thinking of in the PM envisioned a neighborhood school as a community rallying/defense point - I may not have explicitly stated it, but I was imagining it with the permission/cooperation/leadership of people with authority to allow community use of school property.)


In a declared "State of Emergency" in many areas, the highest ranking elected official frequently has extraordinary authority in some cases to bypass certain normal legal channels. In this instance he/she is acting lawfully and within scope of their lawful authority.

So for instance in LA once the governor declares a State of Emergency, the Mayor of NO (since the parish boundary is the city boundary) or the President of a Parish (a.k.a. county) has the lawful authority to commandeer any and all personal and real property for the duration of the State of Emergency. In this case he/she has the absolute lawful authority to take, seize and use anything (including two of my drums of diesel fuel) within the boundary of the Parish, although by doing so the Parish/City has to guarantee appropriate compensation and restitution for anything seized or used....(BTW I am still waiting on my reimbursement check.)

With that in mind, in theory any such public use is by fiat, a legal act.

However, that same authority goes back to the original premise of the thread and the two arguments I posted as to why you should not plan on doing that.

1) If that authority exists, the most likely storehouse of value will be seized by lawful authority. They will likely use all of those resources easily found first; leaving nothing to "salvage".

2) Anything of value that remains unused, is likely (by fiat or force) to belong to that governmental authority, who will likely take a dim view of any third party "salvage" efforts.

In a SHTF situation avoid Walmart et. al. Make Plans to get by without resorting to "salvage".

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:16 pm 
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Some good points mentioned but I was looking for relevant law that governs us in the here and now and how it applies after any major true PAW event, not an 8 day weather event. This is not a question of "..stealing, raiding or borrowing other property", especially the Walmarts, etc. Following the law plus acting ethically should avoid huge mistakes mentioned in that 2010 thread:

"The assumption is that some switch will be turned on and the rules of law will some how, at some point, be suspended. It will then be acceptable both morally and legally to do that which we individually deem "necessary" to ensure the “survival of our family and ourselves”

A key part of preparing is that our plans recognize that we can be unaware of what is happening outside of our AO and assumptions are perilous. One reason that radio communications are part of preps. I am surprised that a bad but local weather event would make anyone think what was stated:

"During the immediate aftermath of Katrina there was a widespread feeling in the GNO area that the world had indeed ended. That we were living in the PAW. Even I felt this way initially."

How could the entire remaining United States be written off by anyone due to severe local weather in GNO??? No matter how slow the Feds were you'd have to know that they would be showing up at some point and take a very dim view of illegal acts. The timeline shows that it was a little over a week before thousands of troops showed up, not even close to PAW. It was a screwed up mess but not "living in a PAW". A massive California earthquake is not a PAW; the rest of the United States is still around. Multiple nukes from China or a Yellowstone super eruption might make for a PAW.

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