Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

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Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by Mechphisto » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:03 pm

Did a quick scan and couldn't find this exactly topic elsewhere...
Caveat: I KNOW this is an impossible question, there are WAY too many unknowns and variables, this cannot be answered in any objective fashion.
That said, I'm curious to hear peoples' feedback and things to consider that I may not have.

Question: Should I stay in my home in the middle of the metropolis, or try to make it in the wilderness?

Situation: Something that causes complete shutdown of electrical grid for the forseeable future for not just my city (Portland, OR) but the entire Pacific Northwest if not the entire country.

Conditions: My house is half a duplex, reasonably overlooked, but right off a couple of highways literally in the middle of metro area.
My current car is a Fiat 500 and not something that can off-road.

Factors:
1. I'm a skilled low-tech camper. With the exception of food, I have the gear and skills and experience to live in the wilderness in all but the most extreme conditions for an indeffinite period.
1.b. So are a lot of people in Portland (it's not all hipsters here).
2. However, my hunting skill and experience is nearly non-existant. I have the weaponry and marksmanship to hunt small game, but I have no skill or experience in dressing, cleaning, or cooking hunted game.
3. Portland is situated right in a confluence of mountain and river valleys -- there's essentially one highway leading out of it in each cardinal direction. If there's an emergency, they're all going to be completely and utterly locked up, and it's not exactly Kansas where you can just pick a side road and drive it out of town. Even Jeeps aren't going to be able to just off-road it out of town very easily. If I want to leave after an emergency has begun, I'd have to hike it on foot.
4. My stove at home is electric, so if I'm boiling water and cooking, it's going to have to be in the wood-burning fireplace.
4.b. Did I mention I live in the middle of the city? My access to firewood is going to be VERY limited. (The back deck is made of wood, though.)
5. While the duplex is easily overlooked where it is, and not exactly a prime target for looting on a road where there's a lot of larger and more appealing houses, it's not by the best neighborhoods to begin with. Defense is going to be an issue.
5.b. I have the weaponry for defense, and there's actually very few points of entry to defend.
6. Assuming the water runs in town still, I have fire to boil water (as long as I have wood), a good supply of sanitizing tabs, bleech, iodine. And a handpump water filter that handles heavy metals.
6.b. Same issue with if I made it to the wilderness, except, anywhere there's going to be flowing water is going to have a lot of hikers/campers living by them.
7. The Portland metro area, like I said, actually has a TON of skilled nature-lovers, low-tech campers, hikers, etc.
7.b. There's going to be a lot of them out at any and all known areas with access to flowing water.
7.c. They tend to be very liberal, progressive, cooperation-minded over competition. So living around and among them could be very positive, a giant Burning Man/Woodstock/Pickathon gift-economy. People used to living among others in scarce environments.
7.d. Those in the city, are going to start freaking out once the stores are empty and won't know how to cooperate and share skills, leading to certain violence and starvation.

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by majorhavoc » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:11 pm

With your very accurate assessment that this is an impossible question to answer in any kind of definitive way, let me start this discussion with a few observations. First and foremost: you can't exist in your urban home indefinitely during a widespread, long-term grid-down situation. That leaves your two choices:

1) Bug out at the very first whiff of an impending disaster, or
2) Hunker down and try to ride out the initial weeks of the situation. And then get out when the mass exodus period has passed. This is going to sound incredibly cynical, but that mass exodus period will pass when those lucky enough to get out have done so and the rest of the urban population (the majority) have starved to death, otherwise gotten themselves killed or are too weakened to present much of a threat. Sorry, that's harsh I know, but that's how I think things will play out.

My thought is leaving at the first opportunity makes sense only if you can get ahead of the masses who will be trying to do the exact same thing. That'll take some foresight and an ironclad commitment to immediately abandon your home, your job, your neighbors and most of your supplies in order to hit the road with whatever your Fiat 500 can safely carry without sacrificing mobility. And you absolutely must have a secure bug out location in mind. Only you know your personal capabilities, but my strong suspicion is that a vague "head for the hills" plan isn't going to turn out well for most people, experienced preppers included.

Hunkering down for three or four weeks makes sense only if you can defend your urban home. Because after a week or so, you will be receiving lots of, ahem "visits" from very desperate, very frightened and very hungry people. They might first give you the courtesy of asking for what you have, but I doubt it. They'll take it by force if necessary. That requires you to fortify your home, have enough occupants to keep up a round the clock watch and a willingness to use your weaponry if the need arises.

A delayed exit after sheltering in for a period of time also requires that you have a means of exiting the city with enough supplies to have a reasonable chance of surviving. By that point I think you should assume that all roads will be impassable to vehicular traffic. At least to a subcompact, two wheel drive passenger car.

Also, I applaud your faith in the continued goodwill of the liberal, progressive, cooperation-minded, wilderness-skilled denizens of Portland OR. I happen to fit that description pretty closely. But I have my reasons for thinking those peace-minded campers may not be singing Kumbia for very long after their stocks of Mountain House freeze dried meals are depleted.

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by Mechphisto » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:39 pm

majorhavoc wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:11 pm
...
Ah, that's EXACTLY the kind of feedback, opinions, and advice I'm looking for! Good stuff there.

And yeah, there's going to be a LOT of liberals who can easily commune for a week at a Burning Man who will break down and get all "Lord of the Flies" as anyone... but I'm friends with some dreadlock-wearing-white-people progressives who are actually quite good hunters, make their own jerkey and provisions, are basically Foxfire self-sufficiency hippies who also happen to believe in, as Cory Doctorow puts it, meeting the neighbors in a crisis bearing a casserole dish instead of a shotgun. It's going to be difficult to tell at first which are the fellow outdoorsy granola-eaters who are capable AND believe in cooperation above all, and those who are only until their REI 3-season sleeping bag pops a zipper.

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by woodsghost » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:37 pm

I'll try to put more thought into this later, but I think heading for the hills and hanging out with the successful tree dwellers would work out, until it doesn't. At which point you head out. Basically, I'd want to be as deep as possible up in the hills on one of those streams and if the campers can feed the city, then cool. And if they can't, then leave. But put as many campers and chicken farms as possible between you and those who can't farm chickens, and use them as your canaries. When/if they start going dark, move on.

I figure 30% will die of disease. Maybe more? Rodents will be an issue. Aren't they already? I may be thinking of other cities. But my basic thought is things are not "destined" to fail, but there will be a lot of failure and I would not want to be near it.

I would consider stashing preps at another location. One you can find without GPS. Food, medicine, and ammo. Of possible, I would stash this with friends you trust and have similar beliefs.

Hunting can be learned. Butchering can be learned. I would start both NOW. I suppose it would be illegal to go hunting right now. Oh well. Your choices. After you have a crazy time with your first/second critter, really watch some good vids. It is an iterative process.

I cannot say if people will go nuts or not. I'm sure some will.

I would also consider learning to stealth garden and get ready to bring skills to your off-site friends.

Do you have basic medical skills? At least learn to live life without contracting dysentery and it's friends.

Just my quick thoughts. I am one who is very "let things play out and see where they go because one cannot fully predict what will happen." And have a plan to fight/kill all who wish you harm and be ready to GTFO at all times. One thing I think is safe to predict: inside a city will be rough, but not impossible. Selco managed it with family. Which brings up a point....

Where are your family? Of blood? Of choice? Where are the people who will welcome you, no questions asked?
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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:03 am

I think you've made a very accurate assessment with good assumptions, except for 1 of your points.

7c.

In my opinion, it does not matter what someone believes in or how someone lives their lifestyle when the SHTF. I wouldn't trust anyone to live communally in times of need the same way they do in times of plenty.

Like many of us on here, I've been in a few high stress situations and a few scenarios where the most "forward thinkers" have turned into monsters.

There will still be good people, and I would hope those of us on here would be those still living with our humanity.... But they will be greatly outnumbered by those desperate and devious if an event that forces people to flee to the wilderness.

People are like prep items... If you don't have it before, you won't get it after. So I wouldn't expect to make great connections after an event if you didn't have them before.
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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by majorhavoc » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:38 am

A few more quick hit thoughts:

1) Take up urban vegetable gardening; even if you have to do container gardening.
2) Own a good bike; maybe a hybrid or HD tourer with front and rear racks.
3) Nota bene: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheUrbanPrepper, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmb2QR ... 21CtxAQ-cA

#2 is an almost unnecessary reminder; you did say you're in Portland, OR, after all. Isn't owning a quality two-wheeler codified in the city charter or something? Just make sure you have racks and panniers. And a bicycle rack for your Fiat. And if your weaponry includes long guns, may I humbly suggest you carefully study RonnyRonin's setup below, as seen in zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=123701.

Edit: try this: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=123701

Image
Last edited by majorhavoc on Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by woodsghost » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:21 am

As I"m thinking things through, I"m hitting some walls.

1) There is some degeneration of "liberals" here, and the way I'm hearing it is they are equivalent to "community oriented" and "unprepared goofs." On this forum there are a number of people who are "liberal" and a number who are "conservative." Generally, those on this forum are not "unprepared goofs." So I would hesitate to tie those two terms together. Further, it sounds like Portland has some fantastic people with amazing skillsets. That is a tremendous strength and opportunity. The reason I bring this up is not to be "politically correct" but to better define "The Problem." The Problem is unprepared goofs if stuff hits the fan. A further element of The Problem is people who will, naturally, do anything to survive and who see "preying on their neighbors" as the path to survival. The problem of "unprepared goofs" and "praying on neighbors in hard times" is pretty universal across political spectrums, cultures, and human history. So this thread is not strictly applicable to Portland, OR, but is actually applicable to others, as well.

(If I misunderstood something, please feel free to call me out. It won't be the first time)

2) A lot of thought and digital ink has been spilled over this issue, as I feel it should be defined. In that context, I wish to point out Selco and FerFal have both written about these experiences in a Balkan city under siege in the early 1990's and Argentina's economic collapse in the late 90's/early 2000's (respectively). So the basic premise of the question has actually been answered.

3) I've written about my own reading and study of civil wars leading me to notice that the general pattern of human behavior is to not "head for the hills." JC Dodge (IIRC)(Mason Dixon Tactical) has written about a similar observation. Actually, my observation is that not many bodies are found randomly in the woods, implying that most people stay close to the roads or close to the cities. Although there was an African civil war where a number of bodies were found widely distributed in the wilds between cities (sorry, I forget which civil war (probably one of the Congo's/Zaire's wars), but that note was what made me realize the absence of this experience in the cleanup after other civil wars). There are other reasons one might not find many bodies in rural areas, so feel free to nitpick. My reading has also not included many/any accounts of people living in a rural area during a civil war, which further makes me confident in my conclusion. Also, my memory is our Venezuela Collapsing thread mentioned people in rural retreats in Venezuela getting hit by raiders and organized crime. Reading about African and Colombian experiences mirror this observation and rural villages experience a lot of raiders and bandits, particularly so when people are denied the right to arm themselves or cannot afford guns and training. So my reading suggests people generally move towards cities during SHTF because rural areas have fewer resources and people in rural retreats who have resources are very vulnerable to raiders and organized criminals (cities have the potential for greater social control & are the targets of International Relief efforts). Further, it is easier for people in marginal situations to find or scrape together enough resources to survive in a city. Homeless people generally flock to cities rather than finding little holes in the wilderness and living. There are exceptions, and we had a thread about a criminal who lived for years next to a dump and scavenged stuff to live off of during his hidy time. (so...maybe find out where the Portland Dump is and plan to bug out there? There is probably more useful stuff in the Portland dump than most other city dumps in America. Maybe more needles too...)

https://masondixontactical.wordpress.co ... e-in-shtf/

4) The above link is to a Mason Dixon Tactical re-post of a Selco article. My reading of Selco says he credits his survival with his being with family and his having tradable skills (EMT), and his having access to a fighting rifle and ammo. And a plot of land in the family compound in which to try and raise food. Selco talked about rural and urban people both having different experiences of the Yugoslavian Civil War, but ultimately, people in both areas survived, and people in both areas died. I think Selco mentioned he would have rather been in a rural area, but being in a family unit was more critical and useful than location. So my earlier question stands; "where is your family? Of blood? Of choice?" I think you want to be with people you trust and can depend on, and preferably who have skills which are tradable in a bad situation. JC Dodge moved to be with blood family. My reading of John Mosby (https://mountainguerrilla.wordpress.com) is he moved to be with family of choice. I would strongly consider who you would join with and communicate with them on this issue. Also, maybe you would want to invite people to join you? If you *need* to survive as an "Army of One," then be prepared to do so, but try to find people to share the load with. There will be an emotional load (as referenced in the linked article above in this post) and a physical load, and both are easier to shoulder if shared with others. This is where your "liberal" (i.e. community minded) friends will be a HUGE asset. I think it is unwise to disparage "liberal" or "conservative" people. We tend to focus on "community minded" or "individual responsibility" survival, and BOTH are VERY NECESSARY for survival in both the SHTF world and the modern world. Sadly, a lot of politics has got attached to both concepts. I think wise cultures rely on people with both dispositions. I would be aware of language, not because of "politics" or because of "forum rules" but because our language both drives our thinking and is a product of our thinking. Adopting a divisive language blinds one to the full utility that different people offer in a difficult situation. But adopting a "fantasy" language does not magically re-make the world into what we desire, so please strive to be very realistic too in your language and observation of people.

5) Hunting small game is a very small return on investment. Hunting large game is far more efficient. If all you have is a .22LR, then ok. But I would hunt small game now and look towards hunting larger game.

Just my $1.50, and remember, I"m no "expert." I'm just a guy who is thoughtful and has done some reading.
Last edited by woodsghost on Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by darmstrong » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:01 am

Obviously, the threat model dictates what to do. I live on the dry side of the wet state. However, after reading the state's plan for the Cascadia Subduction, I'd be looking to stock up 4-6 weeks of food and supplies and use that as my base of preparations for bugging in. Bugging out to the wilderness, IMHO, only makes sense in a very limited scope of situations.

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:11 am

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Apache/2.2.15 (CentOS) Server at www.zombiehunters.org Port 443

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by majorhavoc » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:24 pm

MPMalloy wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:11 am
Comes out as:
Not Found
The requested URL /forum/zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php was not found on this server.

Apache/2.2.15 (CentOS) Server at www.zombiehunters.org Port 443
I literally copied and pasted the link directly from the tent heater thread. Must be something wrong with the forum software. Here's the link without the [url] tags:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=123701

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by TacAir » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:54 pm

Modern cites and 'newer' houses will become unlivable shortly after the power goes out. Actually, most major urban areas are barely livable today (my personal opinion, of course)

No power to pump water
No power to pump sewage.
Even if your current hooch has a wood stove etc, you still need food and water. These will not be available in most major urban areas. At least not without considerable effort.

Moving to an ex-burb where you can commute to a day job and have some property may allow a large garden, the problem of quality water still remains.

Having raw land to move to is of little help - again, all the needed things are absent. And if you build a "vacation" cabin, the locals will loot everything in short order. I just sold off my rural Utah property last for this reason.

Living in a rural area - full time, is the best bet but you will likely have to do without thing from the Big City... Alternatively, looking for a gig that pays well and is week on/week off can allow you to commute to work and still build your rural place out. All you have to hope for is that you are at home the week the SHTF....

Good luck, there are no easy answers - only difficult choices.
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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by Mechphisto » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:07 pm

Way too much to respond to directly... But this is all exactly what I'm looking for! Great information and good for thought and things to consider!
Thank you everyone for the time and effort you're putting into replies!!

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by majorhavoc » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:49 pm

Thank you for getting us started. Things have been a bit slow lately here on the boards. You brought forward a really critical aspect of prepping. The whole "shelter in or bug out" decision is often not discussed very thoroughly on other prepping/survival forums. It's usually "My plan is to grab my INCH bag and SKS, head for the hills and live off the land!" Yeah, how does yet another meal of possum stew go down when you've got dysentery from drinking, bathing and shitting in the same mountain stream 5000 other survivors are using, and your teeth are falling out from scurvy?

Your initial post shows real thought and a genuine awareness that answers to questions like these are highly, highly dependent on the exact circumstances.

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by moab » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:21 pm

I find your post to be very well thought out and honest. Good on you for bringing it here. :)

I've learned some from https://shtfschool.com/ The biggest thing being I don't want to remain in a city. The author lived thru hell in Bosnia. And his biggest regret was not getting out early to the country.

Invest in property in the mountains. And invest in ways to get to it. Consider motorcycles. As they can get thru traffic to your bug out location. Whether that is something you own or just an old cabin or place you know you can go. Plan. Plan. Plan. Consider a boat that is flat bottomed and could access the rivers. Those will be the highways after everyone clogs the highways with dead vehicles. Maybe you can't make it out of town on roads. But you might be able to get to a river.

I'm from WA. So I know Portland isn't all hipsters. But it's not all liberal either. But it is most likely filled with people that know how to survive in the woods and country. If you can plan with others it's better. But just as valuable to get out alone and on your own. Groups are good for certain things. But I value security more. Perfect world would be private property hidden in the mountains with a small group or village you can acess for trade etc.

I'm in a similar but more severe situation here in LA for the time being. Hoping to move back to WA in the next year. (Waiting on my father in law to pass.) Boats, planes and motorcycles are probably my only way out. Planes are impractical. But boats and motorcycles are at least doable financially. I do have a small Jeep TJ. That can ride ditches and slip thru a certain amount of traffic. But I'm sure I won't be the only one with that plan.

The first thing I would do is evaluate your skills and start improving those right now. Then look into a better bug out vehicle than what you have. An older Jeep or some other 4x4 might not be a bad idea. Truck with a canopy you could sleep in. Or even a camper. Especially if you can tow some bikes or a boat behind it. Then start looking for a bug out location. Even if it's just an area and your not buying. Plan your routes. STart to plan for what you'll need to get there. And what you'll need once you do get there. If you can afford it a small cabin way out. Would be my best plan. Or a piece of property you can park your camper on. Or van or what have you. STart populating it with the bullets and beans you need. Maybe add some transportation. A buried secure storage unit? Someplace you can hide your loot. Or someone will along and just take it from whatever dwelling you have set up.

Start camping and hiking. Get to know the various wilderness areas around you. Trade in that Vespa (lol) for something that can get you there. And you'll soon find places you want to retreat to or buy.

Lastly, read this and other forums as much as possible. And books and YT.
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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:22 pm

majorhavoc wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:24 pm
MPMalloy wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:11 am
Comes out as:
Not Found
The requested URL /forum/zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php was not found on this server.

Apache/2.2.15 (CentOS) Server at www.zombiehunters.org Port 443
I literally copied and pasted the link directly from the tent heater thread. Must be something wrong with the forum software. Here's the link without the [url] tags: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=123701
GTG. Thanks.

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:28 am

Both Selco and Ferfal talked about how they'd have been better off in a smaller rural town or village. Not rural all alone. The people living alone in isolated homes or cabins did very poorly and were easy prey.

Vanishing into the hills to live is far more dangerous than staying in a city. Vanishing into the hills to travel to a secure community you know that you will be welcomed in may not be a bad idea. The two are very different things.

The greatest risk to Portland that could warrant evacuation is earthquake. There's no seeing that coming. If it's bad enough to warrant evacuating, no car or truck is getting out. Walking and biking are the only chance. The choice of whether to go or stay will likely depend entirely on whether your home is structurally stable.

If you don't have a solid core of good people you can without a doubt stay with in times of disaster, the next prep should be self improvement and developing a healthy social network. Healthy social connections have repeatedly saved me more than all other types of prepping combined.
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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by Mechphisto » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:40 am

RoneKiln wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:28 am
Both Selco and Ferfal talked about how they'd have been better off in a smaller rural town or village. Not rural all alone. The people living alone in isolated homes or cabins did very poorly and were easy prey.
...
Rebecca Solnit examined how people behave in major disasters in her book "A Paradise Built in Hell: The Extraordinary Communities That Arise in Disaster" and what you say mirrors what she found.

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by darmstrong » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:10 am

RoneKiln wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:28 am
The greatest risk to Portland that could warrant evacuation is earthquake. There's no seeing that coming. If it's bad enough to warrant evacuating, no car or truck is getting out. Walking and biking are the only chance. The choice of whether to go or stay will likely depend entirely on whether your home is structurally stable.
At one point the state was looking at the possibility of transporting the majority of Portlanders to Eastern Oregon after the Big One. My local Emergency Manager heard the number of people coming to our county and ask the State Office of Emergency Management (OEM) what infrastructure support will there be to add 4-5 times the population to the county? I'm told that was a wake up call for the OEM.

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by MacWa77ace » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:47 pm

Mechphisto wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:03 pm
Did a quick scan and couldn't find this exactly topic elsewhere...

Question: Should I stay in my home in the middle of the metropolis, or try to make it in the wilderness?

Search for "Bug in or Bug out" etc. The discussion on ZS is almost as great as Pie vs Cake, or AK vs AR.

Do you have family living with you or in town? If so, are you going to take them with you into the wilderness or leave them behind to fend for themselves? Do you have enough supplies for them too if you load up the vehicle[_s] and BUG OUT. [Fiat 500 :? ]

Your house is probably the best emergency food/equipment storage facility you could have. Since all your stuff is already there, work on security, community networks, and communications if you're unsure of a bug in, and see if you can make it safe[r] to BUG IN. You have to figure out long term water and sewer also. And maybe have an endgame where if things don't improve within X day/weeks, then go to plan B.

Plan B. Consider an alternate pre-stocked BUG OUT location [BOL], with a duplication of what you've got stored in your home. Preferably far enough away so that natural disasters, war, or apocalypse may not effect both locations at the same time. It could be a cabin or bunker in the wilderness, with a water source etc. Or a like minded friend or family member's home out of area but within reach during a disaster. If you BUG OUT, how much survival gear would you have to leave behind because you don't have room to take it. What if the roads are impassible. Can you make it via alternate transportation?

Plan C: BOL 2

[bunch of other Plans D-X after that to consider, search ZS for those under BUG IN vs BUG OUT etc.]

Plan Y would be some sort of govt or private shelter facility, or refugee camp, you probably couldn't bring in anything but food and clothing though. Do you have a pet?

Plan ZZZZZ. As a last resort go to living off the land/sea, aka nomad, which would be a failure of prep IMO. But the skills to do so are also part of prep. It is easier for someone with no family to go that route if they are skilled in bushcraft, but how many 'singles' will make it to the same bush you do and compete for those resources? Don't forget the TP.

Get a bigger vehicle if you're thinking of a BUG OUT, Fiat 500 is just an apocalyptically bad apocalypse vehicle. Even if it holds all the stuff you have, that only means you haven't got nearly enough stuff to BUG OUT with yet.
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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by PistolPete » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:54 pm

An important aspect to consider is that if you bug out without somewhere to go (a bug out location you own, families house, etc.) you are making the choice to become a refugee. That may be better than your existing situation or it may not be. In a disaster people in small communities are going to be extra suspicious of outsiders, so just wandering to the country to find a place to set up may be more dangerous than staying put where you know people nearby.
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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by RoneKiln » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:33 pm

Mechphisto wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:40 am
RoneKiln wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:28 am
Both Selco and Ferfal talked about how they'd have been better off in a smaller rural town or village. Not rural all alone. The people living alone in isolated homes or cabins did very poorly and were easy prey.
...
Rebecca Solnit examined how people behave in major disasters in her book "A Paradise Built in Hell: The Extraordinary Communities That Arise in Disaster" and what you say mirrors what she found.
Thanks for referencing that book. It's now on my list to watch for in used bookstores on kindle clearance sales.
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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:30 am

RoneKiln wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:33 pm
Mechphisto wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:40 am
RoneKiln wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:28 am
Both Selco and Ferfal talked about how they'd have been better off in a smaller rural town or village. Not rural all alone. The people living alone in isolated homes or cabins did very poorly and were easy prey.
...
Rebecca Solnit examined how people behave in major disasters in her book "A Paradise Built in Hell: The Extraordinary Communities That Arise in Disaster" and what you say mirrors what she found.
Thanks for referencing that book. It's now on my list to watch for in used bookstores on kindle clearance sales.

Never heard of it but it looks like a good read!!!


I'm gonna go on a limb and say that successful communities were already established. Like rooftop Koreans in LA or "you loot we shoot" neighborhoods during Katrina.
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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by Mechphisto » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:29 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:47 pm
... Fiat 500 is just an apocalyptically bad apocalypse vehicle...
Nice! :D
No I know, but my credit is as apocalyptic, so until it's paid off, it's what I got. (And it's a PERFECT Portland, OR car as parking around here is a daily apocalyptically abysmal affair, and streets so narrow anything wider takes side mirrors off, and the "sport" mode for the winding hilly roads between the various burbs and the moving in and out of traffic... there's no wonder why the Fiat 500 is a European stock racing car! :D so while the big disaster may come and I may need something better then, the 365 days of the years until then, there's been nothing better. I just ALSO need a Jeep. :D )

Thanks for all the other feedback and advice!!

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Re: Stay in city or attempt the wilderness?

Post by MacWa77ace » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:02 pm

Mechphisto wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:29 pm
MacWa77ace wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:47 pm
... Fiat 500 is just an apocalyptically bad apocalypse vehicle...
Nice! :D
No I know, but my credit is as apocalyptic, so until it's paid off, it's what I got. (And it's a PERFECT Portland, OR car as parking around here is a daily apocalyptically abysmal affair, and streets so narrow anything wider takes side mirrors off, and the "sport" mode for the winding hilly roads between the various burbs and the moving in and out of traffic... there's no wonder why the Fiat 500 is a European stock racing car! :D so while the big disaster may come and I may need something better then, the 365 days of the years until then, there's been nothing better. I just ALSO need a Jeep. :D )

Thanks for all the other feedback and advice!!
:lol:


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