How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by flybynight » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:11 pm

Sa-I-Gu
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by Tobias05 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:00 am

Now that I've verified I can form a militia, I just need a BOL. And some dummies.

Who's with me? I have cheesecake.
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by Stercutus » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:26 am

Might have trouble drumming up militia support here on ZS. Give Stormftront a whirl. They are always looking for a few good (WASP) men.
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by raptor » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:39 am

The term militia like survivalist comes with baggage. It means many things to many people and yet may have other meanings within state law. What you and I would call a hunting club may in some states and some instances be considered a paramilitia/militia by some individuals.

Best to check the laws locally if there is any doubt contact your attoorney for advice. Obviously ZS frowns on any illegal activity.

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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by woodsghost » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:05 pm

Now, a concerned citizens group or neighborhood mutual assistance group is great! Militias have been tricky since the mid 1990s.
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by flybynight » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:02 am

woodsghost wrote:Now, a concerned citizens group or neighborhood mutual assistance group is great! Militias have been tricky since the mid 1990s.
One mans concerned citizens group, another mans militia....I think we've strayed off topic here. IMO , if you and your group find yourself in the position that you need to implement the tactics discussed here. The legalities and even term Militia will be moot.
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by raptor » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:31 pm

flybynight wrote: One mans concerned citizens group, another mans militia....I think we've strayed off topic here. IMO ,

I would note that one key point to the successful defense of the BOL is prior planning, survey of positions and perhaps even some full scale testing of the preparations. So to the extent that legalities need to be addressed to do this; that aspect of the discussion is germane.

Granted that aspect is straying OT.
flybynight wrote: if you and your group find yourself in the position that you need to implement the tactics discussed here. The legalities and even term Militia will be moot.
I honestly have to strongly disagree with this. There have been many instances when people assumed the rules of law were irrelevant only to find themselves in court addressing their actions years and even decades later.

As an example of this I wrote this thread a few years ago.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60213

That said you can find numerous examples of Nazi death Camp guards in their 90's being put n trial, many instances of war lords in all regions of the world being held accountable as other examples. Granted these may not be exactly an apples to apples comparison, but it is something you should consider. That ZS always assumes the rule of law in force for discussion purposes.

So with that in mind I agree lets get on topic. The discussion thus far is worthy of a sticky.

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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by flybynight » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:17 pm

raptor wrote:
flybynight wrote: One mans concerned citizens group, another mans militia....I think we've strayed off topic here. IMO ,

I would note that one key point to the successful defense of the BOL is prior planning, survey of positions and perhaps even some full scale testing of the preparations. So to the extent that legalities need to be addressed to do this; that aspect of the discussion is germane.

Granted that aspect is straying OT.
flybynight wrote: if you and your group find yourself in the position that you need to implement the tactics discussed here. The legalities and even term Militia will be moot.
I honestly have to strongly disagree with this. There have been many instances when people assumed the rules of law were irrelevant only to find themselves in court addressing their actions years and even decades later.

As an example of this I wrote this thread a few years ago.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60213

That said you can find numerous examples of Nazi death Camp guards in their 90's being put n trial, many instances of war lords in all regions of the world being held accountable as other examples. Granted these may not be exactly an apples to apples comparison, but it is something you should consider. That ZS always assumes the rule of law in force for discussion purposes.

So with that in mind I agree lets get on topic. The discussion thus far is worthy of a sticky.
You're right, It's not a apples to apples comparison. :twisted:
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by Tobias05 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:28 pm

Should our group of dummies specialize on individual aspects of daily operations at the deer lease, or should we be generalizing the skill sets of our motley crew?

If we have guards for defense, scouts out on patrol, the company cook, maybe an LP/OP or two, and then finally the leadership positions HMFIC and #2, should everyone be learning everyone else's job? Tactics are easy to tell and teach, but it takes going through the motions for things to finally sink in.

You mentioned the strength of 20 in your first post, so I won't deviate from that. But if Tom is a miracle worker with the iron skillet, and Larry has a bum knee and can't walk far, what do we do? Hard time finding someone else to fill a spot without FNGs filing in regularly.

Lastly, do we have a strategy for leadership succession? Who's next in line if #2 gets bit by a rabid animal and slips into a coma?

How about someone who refuses to be a team player and decides they'd rather chance things on their own?


Thanks again Stercutus, great thread!

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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by Stercutus » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:22 pm

Tobias05 wrote:You mentioned the strength of 20 in your first post, so I won't deviate from that. But if Tom is a miracle worker with the iron skillet, and Larry has a bum knee and can't walk far, what do we do? Hard time finding someone else to fill a spot without FNGs filing in regularly.
I made everyone healthy to make it easier. Everyone eventually gets hurt and/or sick. If your group does not get bigger than you may have to curtail some activities as the situation dictates. There are other options as well.

The more you improve your position the less active manpower you will need to keep it secure. Improvements you should be designed to give you early warning, and some cover until more manpower can be brought into play as needed.
Lastly, do we have a strategy for leadership succession? Who's next in line if #2 gets bit by a rabid animal and slips into a coma?
That should be worked out as soon as practical. Some people are going to better at a certain activity than others. If it were me I would figure out who was doing well and work those people into the leadership. Keeping the group dynamics balanced would be a challenge. Sometimes a "vote" with a solid endorsement works best. Keep in mind whoever the leader is has no real authority other than what the group grants him or her.
How about someone who refuses to be a team player and decides they'd rather chance things on their own?
Well buh-bye. However; if someone leaves your group for good your are going to want to change up certain procedures and maybe even move some people around to make any insider information less useful. Especially if they left under less than ideal circumstances. And even if they didn't.

Teamwork can be tough when the group is peer led. If our group consisted of a bunch of "A type" personalities who were skilled and trained it is going to be tougher to lead then a bunch of people who don't know anything but are content to follow.
From this day to the ending of the world,
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by ssgcmw » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:00 am

Tobias05 wrote:Should our group of dummies specialize on individual aspects of daily operations at the deer lease, or should we be generalizing the skill sets of our motley crew?

If we have guards for defense, scouts out on patrol, the company cook, maybe an LP/OP or two, and then finally the leadership positions HMFIC and #2, should everyone be learning everyone else's job? Tactics are easy to tell and teach, but it takes going through the motions for things to finally sink in.
IMHO, initially you would have people focus on their "specialties" to the extent that it got the required jobs done. As time progresses, they can "cross-train" to give you bench a little depth.

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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by EndeavourOfWill » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:08 am

Old thread but interesting none the less.

In my group of dummies there's the following;

-Two light infantry NCOs (lots of weapon quals, lots of recce experience, one has CBRN defence and decontamination background and other one is skilled as a vehicle mechanic, welder and cook.)
-Ex light infantry turn special operations medic
-Ex light infantry turn special operations CBRN operator
-Two electricians
-Ex prison guard turn carpentry contractor (owns a company and has a fully decked out work trailer)
-Major cell phone company manger and former bartender
-Ex Air force helicopter repair instructor who does it civi side
-Ex army armoured soldier turn air force loadmaster turn civilian load master, turn train conductor, now back in the air force (real gypsie).
-Firefighter



Our BOL location is a remote cabin with a decent stock of cached food, medical supplies and alcohol.
We came up with a set of orders for everyone to bug out to the location with kitlists of what to bring, travel routes and times. Lay over positions on route and secondary locations.

We took some time and template the cabin for various firearms we have including their ranges and dead ground. We have a few projects on the go like a water pump to a near by stream, setting up an antennae , stuff like that.
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by teotwaki » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:09 pm

EndeavourOfWill wrote:Old thread but interesting none the less.
----snip----

Good thread necro! Interesting group of folks that you have. Must make for some good fun at your BOL cabin.
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by EndeavourOfWill » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:10 am

Some pretty fun times but not often productive.
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by teotwaki » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:36 am

EndeavourOfWill wrote:Some pretty fun times but not often productive.
Are the other folks not as dedicated to prepping? I have a relative who talks a lot but never seems to have the time for even easy preps. Has no food stocked up, bought a pistol but never fires it, too busy for a first aid class, etc.

He'll go on a campout once in a while but couldn't hike far enough to get anywhere notable. Some folks need a scare event to motivate them to get ready for a serious event.
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by Stercutus » Mon May 15, 2017 9:27 am

EndeavourOfWill wrote:Old thread but interesting none the less.

In my group of dummies there's the following;

-Two light infantry NCOs (lots of weapon quals, lots of recce experience, one has CBRN defence and decontamination background and other one is skilled as a vehicle mechanic, welder and cook.)
-Ex light infantry turn special operations medic
-Ex light infantry turn special operations CBRN operator
-Two electricians
-Ex prison guard turn carpentry contractor (owns a company and has a fully decked out work trailer)
-Major cell phone company manger and former bartender
-Ex Air force helicopter repair instructor who does it civi side
-Ex army armoured soldier turn air force loadmaster turn civilian load master, turn train conductor, now back in the air force (real gypsie).
-Firefighter
Well golly if you have one or two long tabbers in your group and some light infantry NCOs this thread is superfluous. If they are the real deal they won't be dummies at all. Although I have never heard of a special operations CBRN operator? or an armored soldier?

I'd vote for putting the bartender in charge.
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by teotwaki » Mon May 15, 2017 10:09 am

Stercutus wrote:I'd vote for putting the bartender in charge.
Hmmmmm..... :clap: I'd vote for her!

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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by flybynight » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:16 am

longy wrote:If you've got more than your immediate family with you, you dont NEED any external enemies, cause you've got plenty of them inside the "fort' with you, already! You need 24-7 coverage, in all directions, if you're above ground in daylight, or have "findable" shelter, etc.. If you've got a sandbagged tower, you can maybe get-by with just 2 people on overwatch, and you'll need at least 3 shifts. Those people can't be doing anything else. So that's 6 teenagers, adults, preferably people who can REALLY use a rifle, not just blow a whistle when they detect a problem. You'll need at least 6 more for your silly-arsed patrol. You're not going to have this many people (who are waf) make it to your BOL, guys. and the ones that DO show up will bring dozens of contagious, worthless, unprepped people with them.

You're DREAMING if you "think", that everyone is going to do what you want/say. Somebody will just shoot you in the back, over guard duty, discipining of kids, caring for the sick/elderly, etc. You can't get 6 guys (right in front of you, not on the Net) to agree on what rifle and load to use, for commonality of training, parts, mags ammo, and you "think" that they will agree on anything else. So the premise here is bs. You wont have the manpower to do anything but hide.

Get underground and stay there during daylight hours. Dont make noise, dont leave sign, dont show a light at night. Have silencers on all the longarms, at least, Have at least soft armor and night vision for any who go out at night. Just that will cost so much that you'll understand that the "group" thing is just a fantasy. You'll have to do a lot better than that. there is a REASON why dependants are not allowed into a combat zone. Having their families near the men renders the men ineffective for much of any sort of combat role, much less "patrols".
You're kinda the little evil retard of trolls aren't you ?
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:42 am

longy wrote:
If you've got more than your immediate family with you, you dont NEED any external enemies, cause you've got plenty of them inside the "fort' with you, already!


Well sure if by "you" you mean "longy". Given your predilections to speak to everyone from a place of ignorance with a condescending and insulting tone towards everyone I imagine most everyone that you meet does quickly become your enemy. Couple that with your great desire and willingness to murder people for the smallest slights such as trespassing and I imagine you are a nightmare to deal with on anything passing at a personal level. If you have family they have my pity.
Longy will not have this many people (who are waf) make it to his BOL, guys. and the ones that DO show up will bring dozens of contagious, worthless, unprepped people with them.
Yes, I understand and I understand why.
Longy is DREAMING if he "thinks", that anyone is going to do what he wants/says. Somebody will just shoot him in the back, over guard duty, discipining of kids, caring for the sick/elderly, etc. He can't get anyone (right in front of him, not on the Net) to agree with on what rifle and load to use, for commonality of training, parts, mags ammo, and he "knows" that they will disagree on anything else. So the premise here is bs. He wont have the manpower to do anything but hide.
Totally agree.
You'll have to do a lot better than that. there is a REASON why dependants are not allowed into a combat zone. Having their families near the men renders the men ineffective for much of any sort of combat role, much less "patrols".
I was going to post a long bit here about how this is this completely ridiculous and ignores all of human history to current day. About people pulling together to provide for a common defense, about the watch and militias and.... whats the use really.... you can't teach a rock.

Nobody can keep dependents out of combat zone. Certainly if a country is invaded... But.... all this stuff is self evident common sense. But some people are uncommon.

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But we in it shall be rememberèd—
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For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by woodsghost » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:57 pm

Nevermind. I thought I was PMing....
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by teotwaki » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:16 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:57 pm
Nevermind. I thought I was PMing....
you are such a tease.... :mrgreen:

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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by flybynight » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:43 pm

No I don't know what he said. You ask him
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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by woodsghost » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:35 pm

You guys are hilarious! Ok, I PM'ed someone more knowledgeable to see if they wanted to talk about some additional subjects. One I"ll touch on is the issue of weapons diversity. Again, I"m not an expert, and will gladly alter what I write, but I think there is some room for discussing weapons.

Evan the Diplomat wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:46 pm


Would a larger patrol have more distinctive weapon array? I withdraw the question, since there are no grenade launchers or LMGs in the real world.
On the one hand, we are talking about a group of people on a hunting lease or some other private land, living and avoiding the chaos in the wider world. We are not talking about a guerrilla unit or SF unit seeking to destroy the enemy. The entire concept of "offensive operations" is such a no-no in any Western legal tradition. I think this leads to real limits on the selection of weapons. But....

(Those living in Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, or Yemen, may find this more helpful and fitting of their current situations and prepping needs than those living in say, Canada. However....)

I was reading recently about some truly evil drug cartels and gangs which are active in different parts of America. Many of whom got their start from the veterans of civil wars (primarily in Latin American countries). If things went sideways those folks would very much be coming to loot and kill and would NOT be interested in leaving survivors or witnesses. If these folks show up it is basically a "worst case scenario" and the choice is "fight or die." There are some other groups which are known for their incredible potential for violence (some "prepper" groups I've read, and some other groups of social predators).

Within that context some thought might be put into classifying weapons as "intermittent fire, sustained fire, and precision fire" roles. Within a Soviet platoon, you had riflemen who would give your intermittent fire and be a maneuver element. You had your LMG/automatic rifle elements which provided sustained fire, and you had a "sniper" or DMR for each platoon to provide precision fire.

As stated, a rifle is intended for maneuvering and closing with an enemy, or simply being easier to carry than an automatic rifle. It is usually cheaper than a DMR or automatic rifle too. If a reader is not familiar with this, there are many helpful videos online.

In America it would be a truly surprising situation in which an actual automatic weapon was employed in self-defense and withstood legal scrutiny. But then, I feel much of what has been said in this thread strains the boundaries of what is typically expected in self-defense law (digging foxholes?). If you are in a State where you can stand in a foxhole and fight groups of evil sociopaths, and the state of emergency warrants it, one may want to consider weapons they can use for sustained fire. These do not need to be automatic. They merely need to be capable of firing for longer periods of time and often have heavier amounts of metal (thicker barrels usually), larger capacity magazines, and often have bipods. In this modern age they may also sport optics. This is to put out enough rounds that those down range don't want to move around too much. In particular, they don't want to come too near you. This gives precision shooters and normal rifles a chance to come into play in a way which dramatically alters the scene.

Precision shooters can have a tremendous effect on a landscape and I believe even the less tactically aware posses an understanding of how they affect outcomes.

Another thought is owning/using weapons which combine all 3 roles into one gun, and maybe outfitting your whole group with that gun so as to build more flexibility into your group.

For an interesting and brief touching on these ideas, please watch the following....

http://www.full30.com/video/6e42ee56573 ... ce03c51634
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*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

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Re: How To Defend Your BOL with a Small Group for Dummies

Post by flybynight » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:51 pm

As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

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