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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:07 pm 
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I was running through a 'fight' scenario last night. Now if we're still talking about a Mumbai types of zombie (murder, terror, maximum destruction) it is my (certainly uneducated) information that large percentages of these kinds of zombies sent out around the world are wearing explosives to detonate themselves. This is the SVEST you spoke of? Suicide vest, right? So me thinking about taking them down or being within X' range of zombies dressed 'that' way if they 'are' taken down would be ineffective in protecting my own survival, right? I don't think in a zombie attack I would be able to tell who had clothing explosives and who does not, so it behooves 'me' to continue my focus on avoid/distance/escape/or cover.

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Closing on in him would be unwise, seeking cover or running away would be smart.
So as of today this will continue to be my best option for me... and any people around me I might impact with a 'fight' move. Right?


Last edited by zombiepreparation on Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:41 pm 
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Indeed, the possibility that a shooter could also be wearing an explosive device would motivate me to haul ass in the opposite direction.

Odd how U.S. shooters tend to commit suicide by shooting themselves, as opposed to continuing their self-centered killing spree with an SVEST.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:53 pm 
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I imagine they're not the easiest thing in the world to make, at least not without a certain degree of learning curve. I mean, I have a chemistry background and my best friend does a lot of synthetic chemistry with unstable compounds, but I don't know the first thing about a) how to get materials without flagging watch lists, b) how to make stuff that by definition is pretty unstable, without having access to a full lab, and c) how to avoid any common pitfalls without blowing myself the fuck up. It seems easier to just use what you can get easily. Plus, most US shooters aren't members of any organizations that could help provide logistical and/or informational support.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:59 pm 
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shrapnel wrote:
I imagine they're not the easiest thing in the world to make, at least not without a certain degree of learning curve. I mean, I have a chemistry background, but I don't know the first thing about a) how to get materials without flagging watch lists, b) how to make stuff that by definition is pretty unstable, without having access to a full lab, and c) how to avoid any common pitfalls without blowing myself the fuck up. It seems easier to just use what you can get easily. Plus, most US shooters aren't members of any organizations that could help provide logistical and/or informational support.


It appears you can simply read Inspire and download content without so much as getting a passing glance from DHS if the Boston Bombers are any guide.

Maybe not that particular mag anymore but DHS can be pretty hapless at times when it comes to gathering intelligence.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:07 pm 
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Well then. Apparently it might be easier than I thought. Still. :?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:28 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
It appears you can simply read Inspire and download content without so much as getting a passing glance from DHS if the Boston Bombers are any guide.

Maybe not that particular mag anymore but DHS can be pretty hapless at times when it comes to gathering intelligence.


shrapnel wrote:
Well then. Apparently it might be easier than I thought. Still. :?


It is remarkably simple and easy to find directions on other sites. Some are right and some omit steps. Either way it is quite dangerous in that mistakes can be unforgiving... not to mention unlawful. Accordingly discussion of such activities are discouraged here.





So lets discuss other aspects of preparations for dealing with this subject.



One thing I would note is that information, correct information in a situation like this is critical. As usual the information being transmitted was very confusing and often wrong. Social media was all over the place.

Does anyone have any suggestions of using social media in a useful manner or any other suggestions?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:29 pm 
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Also, just dropping a note so people aren't confused, there were a number of what ended up being duplicate posts in here (because Stercutus was kind enough to compile a bunch of separate posts into a single one), so I deleted the doubles. YOu can see all of the posts together here: https://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2607824#p2607824.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:32 pm 
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Facebook has a feature they activate if necessary that allows people to check themselves in as 'safe'. I know Wee Drop used it, and it certainly seems useful. Of course, that assumes that data/internet is still working, but it beats 20 frantic phone calls as everyone who knows you're in the area of an attack tries to make sure you're ok.

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Shrapnel, if you were a superhero, you'd be Captain Buzzkill Peener Pain.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:33 pm 
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Due to the useful topic and quality of posts I am going to make this sticky. :D

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:07 pm 
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raptor wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions of using social media in a useful manner or any other suggestions?

I follow my city's Twitter account. It's good for emergency alerts, water boil orders, etc. It varies place to place, but public library accounts also can be a decent source of info on Twitter.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:20 pm 
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"On The Job". "In the bag". "The Monkey Suit". "The Red Cape".

Yes, I'm talking about active duty, armed LEOs. Particularly NYC.
For any other police department, certain issues would not exist. They do.
Morale. No, I do not have an answer for that. I'm still trying to accept 1 and 1.
Equipment. You and I know why we have what we have.
Training. Those that heard my last lecture know what you have to do to get better training. Your 20K lecture set will be useless in this scenario.

Whoever shows up first for this, I don't envy you. You cannot isolate and contain an AK47 with a 9MM, not without numbers. Until backup arrives, engage; get HIS head down. Assume body armor. You were taught to deal with this. Be ready to move; the 7.62x39 gets through a lot of cover that stops pistols. Spread out; clumping together will get someone killed.

Remember; Westgate Mall a few people with 9mm pistols were able to rescue a few survivors and tie up the tangos allowing more to escape.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:30 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
- Attackers being heavily perfumed

In addition to the use of being heavily perfumed there is another use for smell in situational awareness. It comes from multiple studies for around a couple of decades now that I think are applicable in this zombie situation. (The results have actually been taught to demographics who might find themselves in a different kind of bodily harm or violation situation so they sometimes have a 'chance' to quickly place themselves in a safer place.) These are the smells that are recognizable if consciously alert to them of when a human is releasing and secreting through the skin large amounts of adrenaline and other chemicals when getting ready to strike.

Which I think at least possible some of the terror zombies would be experiencing in their own build-up to immediate Strike.

The adage 'The smell of fear', turns out to be the well studied biological sudden skin secretions of massive amounts of body chemicals. (So, yeah, the horse and the dog etc. 'can' smell your fear.) Though it is not only fear that releases sudden massive chemical secretions like this. And these secretion is mostly unconsciously recognized by the brains of other humans (and animals) around that person, which is actually one of the triggers that give us the 'feeling' that something is 'wrong'. It is part of that listen to yourself if you 'feel' something is wrong, thing.

This is in no way like the smell of poor hygiene.

I offer that in addition to the heavily perfumed to make ourselves situationally aware, we can also attempt be consciously aware of bodily odors that for some reason suddenly make us uneasy. Example: All of a sudden I get a 'feeling' that something's wrong, or at least not right. So I use my sense of smell to 'attempt' to detect any type of 'wrong' smell coming from some direction and I see a person(s) in my vicinity who could be the source. Again, it will not register as poor hygiene. And in fact may not consciously register at all. Though it doesn't hurt to pay attention because some have recognized it and described it something like the smell of ammonia. BUT that is only one 'among' several descriptions that have been noted and should NOT to be settled on.

Not all zombies are going to go into thrill-of-the-kill chemical release, or high adrenaline release, or massive anxiety/fear chemical release as they build for Strike. But some may. Being heavily perfumed will possibly mitigate register of these secretions. But I will suggest the possibility that 'some' terror zombies will try to avoid being noticed by avoiding heavy perfumes. Plus newer radicalized zombies are also coming from multiple origins that do not use them.

So this is a second tool in the tool box of situational awareness using our sense of smell.


Last edited by zombiepreparation on Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:35 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:42 pm 
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Funny that you mention this. Recently I was at an indoor range and there was a guy there that must have poured an entire bottle of Ralph Lifshitz cologne over himself...you know, the one with the little horsey and man on it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:18 pm 
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raptor wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions of using social media in a useful manner or any other suggestions?


Other than cat pictures and pimping the latest Cool dat?


Probably the most useful part of social media would be the collection of raw intelligence and data. An image or video posted early will have the DTG, Location and likely an unmodified image. That type information is priceless in the right hands at the right time.

The problem is that there is no one listening in real time in most places. Most of the time the information won't get noticed or processed until hours or days later. Most local aw enforcement is woefully behind the curve and lacks the resources to exploit the availability of such information in anything like real time.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:12 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
raptor wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions of using social media in a useful manner or any other suggestions?

SNIP

Probably the most useful part of social media would be the collection of raw intelligence and data. SNIP


Yep, this. You hear all sorts of things, some of which turn out to be true (but possibly not useful, or confirmable right away) and some turns out to be wrong eventually. On a personal level, it's like being your own intelligence analyst if you're paying attention in realtime. I've mentioned before, I had what turned out to be some good info regarding the Charleston attack about half a day before I saw anything like it in the 'regular' media. Mind you, I didn't have a way to be sure of it right away (and it was nothing the police didn't have instantly, being on the scene). I knew exactly 2 people in Paris, nor are most of my social media connections connected to it, so I had nothing more than anyone else. (Also don't speak French!)

I have toyed with the idea of setting up an account/accounts to 'listen' to groups/locations that might become newsworthy - but nobody's paying me and it hasn't seemed worth my time so far. I'm just developing the parts of my social network that come naturally. I've also liked/followed accounts for the local PD/Library/Newspaper/Schools, signed up for email/text alerts etc. (And I can always use more cat videos! :clownshoes: )

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:47 am 
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Stercutus wrote:
raptor wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions of using social media in a useful manner or any other suggestions?


Other than cat pictures and pimping the latest Cool dat?


Probably the most useful part of social media would be the collection of raw intelligence and data. An image or video posted early will have the DTG, Location and likely an unmodified image. That type information is priceless in the right hands at the right time.

The problem is that there is no one listening in real time in most places. Most of the time the information won't get noticed or processed until hours or days later. Most local aw enforcement is woefully behind the curve and lacks the resources to exploit the availability of such information in anything like real time.


Actually, State and Federal agencies data mine social media constantly through automated bots looking for keywords, locations, and yes even hashtags. The problem is filtering out the BS in order to get a accurate picture of what is happening. Too many people spam hashtags for stupid crap like: "7-11 out of slushies?! #CallThePolice"

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:02 am 
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NamelessStain wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
raptor wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions of using social media in a useful manner or any other suggestions?


Other than cat pictures and pimping the latest Cool dat?


Probably the most useful part of social media would be the collection of raw intelligence and data. An image or video posted early will have the DTG, Location and likely an unmodified image. That type information is priceless in the right hands at the right time.

The problem is that there is no one listening in real time in most places. Most of the time the information won't get noticed or processed until hours or days later. Most local aw enforcement is woefully behind the curve and lacks the resources to exploit the availability of such information in anything like real time.


Actually, State and Federal agencies data mine social media constantly through automated bots looking for keywords, locations, and yes even hashtags. The problem is filtering out the BS in order to get a accurate picture of what is happening. Too many people spam hashtags for stupid crap like: "7-11 out of slushies?! #CallThePolice"


I understand that, although it varies greatly in size and effectiveness of programs from state to state. But on the ground in real time when events are unfolding it will be the local police who are most likely to deal with and resolve attacks. When the the state organization puts something out six hours later the event is long over.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:52 am 
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Stercutus wrote:
<snip> When the the state organization puts something out six hours later the event is long over.

insha'Allah

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:08 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
raptor wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions of using social media in a useful manner or any other suggestions?

Probably the most useful part of social media would be the collection of raw intelligence and data. The problem is that there is no one listening in real time in most places.

If you know or think something is going down, social media can get you the raw info faster than any other source.

Eg. the first I know of last week's Paris attack was a retweet on Twitter. A Twitter search for Paris then gave me first-hand tweets and photos from the scene, long before the same info turned up on France24 let alone the BBC.

An hour or so after that, of course, the news agencies had got their social media monitoring people into play and the various live news feeds (website text, not TV) were keeping up with developments better than I could (probably because they had many more eyes in play, better tools and better French language skills).

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Boondock wrote:
raptor wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions of using social media in a useful manner or any other suggestions?

I follow my city's Twitter account. It's good for emergency alerts, water boil orders, etc. It varies place to place, but public library accounts also can be a decent source of info on Twitter.



Not social media per se, but what about a police/fire scanner app for your phone ( or just bookmark one of the scanner websites). You most likely won't have access to the tactical channels but would be able to hear emergency response or mutual aid channels.

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NamelessStain wrote:
A moderator has asked to see a copy. If he/she reads it and gives it "the blessing", I will cut/paste it to the forum.

NamelessStain kindly allowed me to read his paper. I think it gives a useful overview of the Mumbai attack and I am happy for it to be posted here.

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zombiepreparation wrote:
So this is a second tool in the tool box of situational awareness using our sense of smell.


To echo a little of what ZP is saying, years ago (Well decades now :( ) when I wrestled in high school, I could smell the metallic order of Adrenalin on some of my opponents right before the match started, and I knew that mostly they were the ones that were going to give 110% effort from the rip until they tired out. Made it a little more of a chess match. Now detecting that smell from further away than kissing distance, doubtful. But that is why we have trained dogs with noses 100x's better than ours...

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SCBrian wrote:
But that is why we have trained dogs with noses 100x's better than ours...

I have a cousin who works a bomb sniffing dog in a major metropolitan area, who made extra effort to train his canine and be qualified as an attack dog. Why? Because only attack dog certified canines can be used off lead (in his AO) and as he puts it, "When my dog alerts to the explosives in a suicide belt, much as I love my dog, I don't want to be on the end of a 6 foot lead at that time".

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As Sheddi said, I got the pre-approval to post this here. I hope there is something everyone can glean from it.

Executive Summary

This Executive Summary contains a brief list of details of the attacks in Mumbai starting on 26 November.
• 10 men who are associated with Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) performed the attacks (Rabasa et al., 2009)
• Attacks occurred at the following locations: Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railway station, Leopold Café, Taj Mahal Palace & Tower Hotel, Oberoi Trident Hotel, Metro Cinema, Cama and Albless Hospital, and Nariman House. (CNN Library, 2014)
• Attacks started at approximately 9:20 PM on November 26 and hostilities ceased at approximately 9:00 AM November 29 (CNN Library, 2014).
• Total estimated dead between 164 (CNN Library, 2014) and 172 (Rabasa et al., 2009).
• Weapons used by the attackers were conventional weapons along with explosive devices. Some of the weapons included: AK-56 (Chinese AK-47 variant), H&K MP5 (assumed taken from Indian Security units), 9mm pistols, hand grenades, and IEDs. (Rabasa et al., 2009).
• 10 men were split into teams (3 2-man teams and a 4-man team) and given separate targets, this would prevent all the attackers from being in one area. This added to the chaos and conflicting reports as to where attacks were taking place. (Rabasa et al., 2009)
• Communication gear used by the attackers included: cell phones, a satellite phone, and Blackberries. (Rabasa et al., 2009)
• Attacks served as a message to common Indian citizens that the government cannot protect you from us. This would cause fear in the middle class who use most of the public locations which came under attack. The attacks would also cause additional tensions in the Kashmir providence which is a mix of Muslim and Hindu religions. (Rabasa et al., 2009)


Pre-attack Analysis

In February of 2008, a suspected terrorist was arrested with a drawing of the Taj Hotel in his possession and during interrogation he stated he had begun reconnaissance in late 2007. (Rabasa et al, 2009). This should have been an indicator to Indian Intelligence and law enforcement that an attack was in the planning. Additional resources should have, at a minimum, been allocated to increase security around the Taj Hotel. Then additional analysis should have been able to lead to other soft targets with a similar profile such as the Oberoi Trident Hotel. These two hotels accounted for approximately 60 of the deaths during the entire Mumbai terror attack (CNN Library, 2014).

Intelligence agencies within India had received warnings from multiple sources of an impending attack (Rabasa et al, 2009). These were ignored due to no specific dates or places being named within those intelligence channels. Communication of these warnings also never trickled down to local authorities who might have been able to increase preparations and response times in the event of an attack.
Also the providence of Kashmir has been a point of conflict between India and Pakistan since they British rule ended in 1947. Several wars have been fought over Kashmir between India and Pakistan. This shows a historical pattern of violence toward India and several previous terrorist attacks on India outside the Kashmir region.

Environmental Risks

Port and coastal security seemed to be lax when considering the Indian fishing vessel was not searched or even radioed for information. By entering by sea, they could bypass any security at land checkpoints where access would be more restrictive. The entire attack could have been stopped in this phase of the terrorist operations since all the terrorist and their equipment were on that single fishing vessel.
Another environmental risk was media coverage and the use of civilians posting information on Twitter. This allowed the attackers to know what the media knew, and in this incident, the media was reporting more than even the law enforcement agencies knew at many times. By allowing the terrorist to see media content, they could see what law enforcement was doing, where they are moving, and theorized what they are planning.
The two hotels attacked, the Taj Hotel and Oberoi Trident Hotel, were known to be hotels used by international travelers and the elite within India. The nature of these targets would gather world media outlets to cover the attacks since it would become a more international affair with citizens from multiple nations being affected.

With the knowledge of a possible attack occurring, Indian officials knowing it is a possible Muslim group should have informed the Nariman House, which is run by the Jewish Chabad Lubavitch movement, due to the history of attacks against Jews. They may have been able to make their own plans to implement if an attack was started. Also they may have left the area knowing an attack had been rumored in the intelligence community.

Operational Risks

Response times by authorities was a huge issue when dealing with this terrorist attack. Local units took almost 5 hours and when they arrived they did not completely execute their protocols such as isolation of the terrorist and setup of command posts (Rabasa et al., 2009). The next special response team, the Marine Commandos (a.k.a. The Marcos), did not arrive until later and were responsible for perimeter security for later operations (Black Cats Corner the Terrorists). Finally, 11 hours later, the special operations unit, National Security Guard (NSG) also known as the Black Cat Commandos, arrived and began operations. Their commander had 4 key points for his commandos (Black Cats Corner the Terrorists):
1. No loss of innocent lives
2. Try and take the terrorists alive
3. Minimize collateral damage
4. Screen hostages to prevent terrorist from slipping through their security net.

These teams had limited knowledge of the areas where they were going to be performing hostage rescue, but the terrorists had intimate knowledge through their reconnaissance efforts earlier (Rabasa et al., 2009). This reduced the effectiveness of the commando teams since the terrorist could attack and then move via secret areas throughout the hotels. The clearing of the hotel was a slow process. The Black Cats were also under equipped and did not have access to night vision gear which made a night time attack impossible.

Announcement by Indian officials as to when certain units were being deployed and how many men would be in those units, gave critical information to the terrorists as to when potential rescue operations would be taking place (Rabasa et al., 2009).

Mitigation Plans

The RAND report (Rabasa et al., 2009) defined a deficiency in the response protocols used by Indian authorities. By addressing this weakness, local law enforcement should have implemented a means to remove communications in the area through jamming devices or disconnecting multimedia devices such as internet and television cable, and ensure their devices would not be affected. Jamming devices can be set for a group of frequencies, such as cell phones, in order to stop everyone in the area, especially the terrorist, from communicating with external sources. Eventually, Indian Intelligence intercepted communications and discovered that these attacks were being “supervised” by another individual in Pakistan. By adding the process of limiting or elimination communication methods used by the terrorist teams, the teams will not be able to get information to which they can respond or react. The action would also have removed their ability to see media stories and online sources such as Twitter.

The RAND report (Rabasa et al., 2009) suggested there are gaps in the coastal surveillance capabilities of India due to a shortage of ships and aviation units. One way to improve the coastal securities is to allow for vessels to monitor themselves by installing some form of panic device which could be required on all vessels tied to Indian cities. If another vessel were to be under attack, a crew individual could trigger the device which could indicate to Indian Coastal Authorities that additional attention needs to be paid to a particular craft. Also, the device should indicate GPS of the vessel. Once the device is activated, it stays activated until the monitoring agency has determined the status, such as false alarm, or even a hijacking. The device could be tied in with standard radio equipment of seagoing vessels. This should reduce costs to implement this solution due to the reuse of standard equipment on all seagoing vessels. This could also increase the response time to active incidents instead of performing random checks in order to find suspicious activities. There is also a possibility that the system could be used to draw off law enforcement officials by those involved with smuggling or other illegal activities by having a clean ship trigger an alarm, thus allowing the ship with the illegal cargo to slip by authorities.

As detailed in the Operational Risks, the response times were excessive. A new plan to spread out the NSG Black Cat Commandos could position teams closer to major cities and be assigned a region of responsibility. They should also work in conjunction with local law enforcement to assign roles and responsibilities for each group involved. By working directly with these law enforcement units, everyone involved with a future incident would be more prepared to isolate incidents and protect the civilians. Mock tabletop exercises could be a monthly event held to keep leadership informed and ready to implement their response plans. Through these exercises, communications among the units involved would increase familiarity between the units to understand while unit A is blocking off street traffic, unit B is establishing a perimeter around the event, and unit C is gathering information about the building and local resources.

Bibliography

Black Cats Corner the Terrorists. (n.d.). Retrieved February 26, 2015, from http://www.ahctv.com/videos-3/black-cat ... errorists/
Black Ops Extra: Mumbai Attacks Testimonials. (n.d.). Retrieved February 24, 2015, from http://www.ahctv.com/videos-3/mumbai-at ... timonials/
CNN Library. (2014, November 19). Mumbai Terror Attacks Fast Facts - CNN.com. Retrieved March 1, 2015, from http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/18/world/asi ... index.html
Did Terrorists Use Twitter to Increase Situational Awareness? (2013, February 14). Retrieved February 27, 2015, from http://irevolution.net/2013/02/14/terro ... d-twitter/
Mumbai Attacks a Mixture of Confusion and Terror. (n.d.). Retrieved February 27, 2015, from http://www.ahctv.com/videos-3/mumbai-at ... nd-terror/
Rabasa, A., Blackwill, R.D, Chalk, P., Cragin, K., Fair, C.C., Jackson, B.A, ... Tellis, A.J (2009, January 9). The Lessons of Mumbai.
Timeline: Mumbai under attack. (2008, January 12). Retrieved February 27, 2015, from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7754438.stm

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jnathan wrote:
Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.


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