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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:32 am 
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All else fails, go to ground and don't move, don't make a sound.


maddieparker wrote:
Was the survivor of a harrowing robbery.


This is good advice for a robbery. Robbers are after money and stuff, not necessarily your life.

I am not sure if it is good advice on how to respond to terrorist attack. If the terrorists are convinced you are dead they will probably ignore you. If they notice you being alive they will likely try to kill you again. You may be killed in a follow on explosion if they detonate a bomb in your vicinity regardless.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:43 am 
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LowKey wrote:
Take a good look around the places you go. Spot the exits, even the ones you'd normally never use.
Look for hardened hiding places.
Storm sewers.
Service tunnels.

If this type of attack takes place, most laws will permit you to do things that would otherwise be considered unlawful, such as breaking doors, locks, ect in order to escape(There is a legal term for this doctrine, but it slips my mind at the moment).

So when it happens...GO! Don't wait, just get out and away from the crowds. Stay to the dark places, and put as much distance between the sound of the guns and yourself as you can.

All else fails, go to ground and don't move, don't make a sound.

The defense or doctrine is Necessity

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:27 pm 
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grumpyviking wrote:
adam766 wrote:

If you think your going to get an air ambulance in a reasonable time frame for a heart attack or stroke just because you live somewhere a bit rural you are sadly mistaken. Most are dispatched on ambulance crew request and normally only really deal with trauma and cardiac arrests.



maybe not in America because of the distances involved, in the UK its quicker to send an air ambulance to a rural call out than sending a road ambulance, an air ambulance is often seen in this area its not an uncommon occurrence.


I work front line for a UK ambulance service, I know how UK ems works. A quick Google shows in 2014 there were on average 12,381 life threatening ambulance calls per day in England, there are 31 air ambulances (all charities) in England the vast majority of which only fly in daylight in good weather.

In a rural area you will be increasing your chance of dying from a stroke or heart attack a lot more than your decreasing your risk of terrorism. The air ambulances as good as they are do not exist to compensate for your poor choices of area.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:41 pm 
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adam766 wrote:

I work front line for a UK ambulance service, I know how UK ems works. A quick Google shows in 2014 there were on average 12,381 life threatening ambulance calls per day in England, there are 31 air ambulances (all charities) in England the vast majority of which only fly in daylight in good weather.

In a rural area you will be increasing your chance of dying from a stroke or heart attack a lot more than your decreasing your risk of terrorism. The air ambulances as good as they are do not exist to compensate for your poor choices of area.


depends where one is I suppose, I live in North Devon and I can assure you our air cover is pretty good here, I have seen several air ambulances land near here and they are always flying over the area, they are easy to spot because of their bright colours.
the present condition of the NHS means one could die from stroke or heart attack just as easily in a city as in the countryside, the response times for road ambulances are so poor and getting worse. given the threats I prepare for living in the countryside is a better option than living in one of our overcrowded multicultural ghettos we refer to as cities, and yes, I lived in a city for over 40 years and I know which I prefer.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:58 pm 
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grumpyviking wrote:
adam766 wrote:

I work front line for a UK ambulance service, I know how UK ems works. A quick Google shows in 2014 there were on average 12,381 life threatening ambulance calls per day in England, there are 31 air ambulances (all charities) in England the vast majority of which only fly in daylight in good weather.

In a rural area you will be increasing your chance of dying from a stroke or heart attack a lot more than your decreasing your risk of terrorism. The air ambulances as good as they are do not exist to compensate for your poor choices of area.


depends where one is I suppose, I live in North Devon and I can assure you our air cover is pretty good here, I have seen several air ambulances land near here and they are always flying over the area, they are easy to spot because of their bright colours.
the present condition of the NHS means one could die from stroke or heart attack just as easily in a city as in the countryside, the response times for road ambulances are so poor and getting worse. given the threats I prepare for living in the countryside is a better option than living in one of our overcrowded multicultural ghettos we refer to as cities, and yes, I lived in a city for over 40 years and I know which I prefer.


Would country mouse and city mouse please take their argument to the rat trap of PMs

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:13 pm 
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:
Would country mouse and city mouse please take their argument to the rat trap of PMs

With my moderator hat on I'll second that.

I note that there has already been a warning in this thread by the_alias here.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:15 pm 
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drop bear wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aClcBmZfK9A

So what this video shows is that the one guy had better trained instincts for whatever reason in that he had no 'delay' time between 'seeing' the supposed bad guys, then acting for his survival. Right?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:32 pm 
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zombiepreparation wrote:
drop bear wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aClcBmZfK9A

So what this video shows is that the one guy had better trained instincts for whatever reason in that he had no 'delay' time between 'seeing' the supposed bad guys, then acting for his survival. Right?


Yes. The video might have been funny. But the response was right.

And if you look at the new one just now in Paris. They all followed that guys lead.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:49 pm 
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For Joe Citizen most of the responses on the thread so far should work.

LEOs and first responders would have different priorities and responses.

Thanks to LEOSA, I WILL CCW everywhere that law and my badge permit. Anywhere else would be illegal, and we wouldn't want to do that.

That said, this is asking a pistol to fight a rifle. Likely two or three rifles.
First, if I'm off the clock, my own family and friends will be escorted out of immediate danger if they're not armed, maybe even if armed. Make for the vehicle and have them leave for home. Depending on my supplies, I'll see if its possible to extract others. If not, I'm out of there.

If I'm in the bag, different story.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:09 pm 
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Translate LEOspeak please: "in the bag" that can mean intoxicated where I'm from.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:20 pm 
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:
Translate LEOspeak please: "in the bag" that can mean intoxicated where I'm from.

On the clock.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:31 pm 
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Here's the bibliography I used for the Mumbai attack paper I had to write. I will not post the paper since it would probably have moderator drool all over it.

Black Cats Corner the Terrorists. (n.d.). Retrieved February 26, 2015, from http://www.ahctv.com/videos-3/black-cat ... errorists/
Black Ops Extra: Mumbai Attacks Testimonials. (n.d.). Retrieved February 24, 2015, from http://www.ahctv.com/videos-3/mumbai-at ... timonials/
CNN Library. (2014, November 19). Mumbai Terror Attacks Fast Facts - CNN.com. Retrieved March 1, 2015, from http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/18/world/asi ... index.html
Did Terrorists Use Twitter to Increase Situational Awareness? (2013, February 14). Retrieved February 27, 2015, from http://irevolution.net/2013/02/14/terro ... d-twitter/
Mumbai Attacks a Mixture of Confusion and Terror. (n.d.). Retrieved February 27, 2015, from http://www.ahctv.com/videos-3/mumbai-at ... nd-terror/
Rabasa, A., Blackwill, R.D, Chalk, P., Cragin, K., Fair, C.C., Jackson, B.A, ... Tellis, A.J (2009, January 9). The Lessons of Mumbai.
Timeline: Mumbai under attack. (2008, January 12). Retrieved February 27, 2015, from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7754438.stm

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:21 pm 
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I think the mods would be ok with you posting a link to your thesis.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:43 pm 
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Aside from mental preparation, one might beef up their FAK to help deal with casualties. How much beefing will depend on what level of first aid training you've received, and who much you are willing to prep products you aren't trained to use (for someone else - like EMS - to use).

This list is just off of the top of my head, and the particulars can be debated by people more informed than me, but given my level of training, I'd add:

1.)hemostatic agents and TQs to my everyday FAK.

2.)MOAR gauze and dressings.

3.)MOAR saline wash

4.)and finally MOAR emergency blankets (for shock treatment)

EMS and medicos could probably add blood volume expanders and a more comprehensive FAK.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:35 pm 
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Perhaps some of you guys who served in Iraq or Afghanistan can confirm this: I'm told the explosive used by the Paris terrorists smells like concentrated bleach. Is this true? Is it possible that the smell might be detected through a bomb vest?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:01 pm 
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Umm, dumb question from the land of the monthly school (church, mall, etc) shooting. How does Mumbia or Paris really differ from any other active shooter incident? Your choiced are limited to the same Freeze, Flop (play dead), Fight, Evac, Bunker, and Hide reactions. Keep you head up, know what you're going to do, and when it's time to act, don't hesitate.

Read Amanda Ripley on why people act the way they do in an emergency. It's very relevant to active shooters.

In response to what to do. At home: lock all exterior doors & windows, turn on all exterior lights (makes it harder to see in), turn off all interior lights and draw the blinds, go chill on th e floor on the opposite end of the house. At work: lock yourself in an office and wait for the all clear. Look up millwall brick for improvised weapon.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:36 pm 
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DarkAxel wrote:
Perhaps some of you guys who served in Iraq or Afghanistan can confirm this: I'm told the explosive used by the Paris terrorists smells like concentrated bleach. Is this true? Is it possible that the smell might be detected through a bomb vest?

The stuff I worked around was always in small quantities, used at blasting caps or sensitizer for bulk explosives. I couldn't ever smell it unless it was a lab. I wouldn't put any stock in the idea that one could smell a suicide bomber by their explosive vest.

TATP is Satan's Cocaine for a reason. Friction sensitive, heat sensitive, shock sensitive, and sometimes it just likes to oxidize with air, meaning it can kaboom with almost no warning. Every once in awhile a kid will kaboom himself trying to make the stuff in his room, or a bombmaker will detonate his entire lab by mistake.

If you smell it, and you're not EOD, you're probably about to die.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:08 pm 
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TATP. Chlorine can also linger, possibly triggering alerts for pulmonary agent, and mass panic.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:29 am 
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1) Probably good to keep your cell phone charged and in a secure pocket or belt pouch. Not a fan of any clip holder. Realize once the balloon goes up, the cell towers will be jammed with calls.

2) If memory serves, in Mumbai police stations were the specific target for two purposes; disrupt first responders, steal first response vehicles, cause further chaos by attacking large crowds FROM first response vehicles. In the CONUS, the last thing we need is riots caused by what appears to be police officers committing wanton murder from cop cars.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:14 am 
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anyone see the people panicking last night when someone let off a firecracker?(its all over the news this morning).

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:16 am 
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Close_enough wrote:
Umm, dumb question from the land of the monthly school (church, mall, etc) shooting. How does Mumbia or Paris really differ from any other active shooter incident? Your choiced are limited to the same Freeze, Flop (play dead), Fight, Evac, Bunker, and Hide reactions. Keep you head up, know what you're going to do, and when it's time to act, don't hesitate.



Not a dumb question at all. They are more similar then they are different. If you go back and look at the post where I explain what clues will determine an ASA vs a Terrorist Attack this will be helpful. Mostly it has to do with goals, mindset, resourcing, planning and profile.

With a Mumbai Style attack the size and scale of the attack or going to be completely different than an ASA. With an active shooter once the shooter is killed the attack is most likely over. In the unlikely event that there is a second shooter that should resolve quickly too. I don't know of any active shooter cases that involved three assailants, it would certainly deviate from the norm. Normally these are over in under 30 minutes. With a large scale terrorist attacks these could go on for hours or days. You could even be locked down in your home for quite a while if you are in an affected area.

Active Shooter vs Terrorist:
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The vast majority of Active Shooters are single actor males 13-50, diagnosed with a type of mental illness and are nearly always taking medication to control mood or behavior. They are likely known to their victims who are not in complete surprise at their sudden violence. They don't often do research, planning or rehearsals.

Mumbai style Terrorist Attackers are mostly 2+ attackers, males 18-30, possibly with females intermixed. They may take drugs/ alcohol prior to the attack but are not normal users of such. They research and plan their targets out who are most often strangers. They likely will rehearse their attacks publicly if surreptitiously if they are able.

There are "lone wolf attackers" such as Nidal Hassan and others. While his goals were that of a terrorist he better fit the profile of a active shooter. We are not discussing "lone wolf" attackers though.

Goals:

The active shooter doesn't really have goals. Mostly he is seeking revenge for being alive by killing as many people as possible. When confronted by the police or nearly out of ammo he will most often kill himself with his weapon. Typically they will be atheist or non-religious.

The terrorist is in a propaganda war and being directed by other who are too important (read: too afraid) to take action themselves. These days they are nearly all Islamic but in the past Communist Red Army members commonly conducted these types of attacks. The Japanese Red Army was especially brutal ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Red_Army ) The Lod Airport Attack being quite notable. Sadly these types of attacks are not really "new" and there is no reason to think that Islamists will hold a monopoly on bad behavior in the future.

Terrorists want to implement a change in government and/or government policy. They may even be seeking to make the government more restrictive such as in the Charlie attack. They seek to undermine the legitimacy of the current government and change the current government that is in place by proving to the population that the government is unable to fill it's role and duty of protecting the population. To do this it is important to attack symbols of power and culture as well as killing as many people as possible. Religious targets are often avoided in the West (likely because of the separation of church and state). In the Middle East religious targets are the norm.

Mindset:

An active shooter is most likely going to be mentally ill. Mindset is not really a factor as behavior is random if somewhat predictable.

A terrorist will be committed to his goals and accomplishing his mission to death if need be. He will keep working and fighting until his goals are met or they can not be met.

Neither wishes to be captured alive and will try to kill themselves in the end. The terrorist is much more likely to have a bomb so that he can kill as many people as he can when he takes himself out.

Resourcing:

An active shooter will most likely be armed with a semi-automatic weapon and is less likely to have explosives. They may or may not wear "tactical gear" with extra magazines. Pistols are common.

Terrorist attackers most likely will be wearing tactical gear, have explosives, extra ammo and possibly automatic weapons. They will most likely have a long gun. They will have communication devices to communicate with other members of their team. They may be dressed alike or similarly.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:23 am 
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DarkAxel wrote:
Perhaps some of you guys who served in Iraq or Afghanistan can confirm this: I'm told the explosive used by the Paris terrorists smells like concentrated bleach. Is this true? Is it possible that the smell might be detected through a bomb vest?


If the explosive is HME, Acetone based it could smell like bleach or peroxide. Kind of like hair treatment or a meth lab. There is no guarantee it will smell like that but it could be an indicator.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:35 am 
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:
I think the mods would be ok with you posting a link to your thesis.


A moderator has asked to see a copy. If he/she reads it and gives it "the blessing", I will cut/paste it to the forum. I do not publish any of my course material online.

The paper (not a thesis) was for the course: IST 564 - Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management

Also the book for the class were:
Managing Strategic Surprise: Lessons from Risk Management and Risk Assessment


Interesting reads.

Edit: fixed book list. Other list was from a class on terrorism.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:21 am 
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I edited and compiled my posts here:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=117377#p2607824

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