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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:24 pm 
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zombiepreparation wrote:
OODA = observe, orient, decide, and act, right? But what do you mean by being stuck behind the bad guys' OODA loop?

Yup and we are seeing news stories of people caught in them until it was almost too late.

Examples:
“We heard gunfire, 30 seconds of fire, it was interminable, we thought it was fireworks,”

"People were sitting outside. I had literally gone about 30 metres when, I thought it was a firecracker to start with, and then it went on and it got louder. "

"They asked us to lie down, one of them was doing this, so the whole room lay down. They kept shooting but stopped every now and then."

"She had just returned home from a long shift in the office, when she heard gunfire. I met her this afternoon, as she stood outside the restaurant, shaking, sweating and staring in disbelief at the bullet holes in the window.

"She told me she can't shake the image of what she saw from out her window; the bodies of two men in the entrance, one still alive, waving for help. She says she glanced at the attacker, and crouched down to hide herself from view.

==============
I can't find these others but there were more I saw that basically said:

"We thought they were security services. Could not believe it"

It's not fireworks, it's gunfire, heck I don't even live somewhere and never have where gunfire is common so if you're not thinking 100% you could easily think it is a firework, the brain tells us what is normal (others of you may immediately know of course(

You have to jump ahead and start reacting as soon as possible to developing situations.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:50 pm 
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In my mind "Avoidance" isn't "don't go anywhere there could possibly be a threat" but more along the lines of keeping yourself from becoming an easy target.

A list of some best practices, by no means an all inclusive list:

Things to avoid while in a public place where you could be at risk:
- Being in poor physical condition (obesity, unable to run at least one mile)
- Fatigue
- Intoxication
- An overtaxed span of control (being responsible for too many children, etc)
- Disarmed
- Excessive distraction or sensory exclusion by electronic devices

Things to do:
- Be in the best physical condition that you can be, recognize your limitations and have a plan to deal with them
- Be alert and fully aware of your surroundings (Ingress, Egress, Cover, Concealment, Security)
- When going to an event, research it thoroughly and weigh the risks if any

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:16 pm 
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:
My European raised wife often chides me, because the first thing I do is look for the fire exits.

Me too. There were several widely-reported accounts of British tourists burning to death in holiday venues during the 80s when I was growing up. Old habits die hard.


One thing that's different about recent terrorist attacks is that they're not about short-term political goals, they're simply about terror.

By this I mean, in very general terms (and with a few notable exceptions) terrorists used to take hostages to use as bargaining chips during negotiations with the State. (See the Iranian embassy siege, or Hans Gruber in Die Hard [his turned out to be a sham anyway].) These days it seems terrorists take hostages because they're too difficult to kill immediately but will be easier to kill later.

Stercutus wrote:
...
- Avoidance
- Pre-Attack Detection and Reporting
- Active Defense Measures

Active Defense Measures should follow the "Flee, Hide, Fight" format as whatever is appropriate for the circumstances at hand.

Flee, Hide, Fight works for me.

Or at least, it seems to while I'm sat on my couch with my wife beside me and a glass of red wine in my hand.

If it ever gets beyond the theory and I survive, I'll come back here with an AAR for you all to Monday morning quarterback.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:18 pm 
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zombiepreparation wrote:
OODA = observe, orient, decide, and act, right? But what do you mean by being stuck behind the bad guys' OODA loop?


Back in the 80's when I was on active duty, a SEAL instructor explained that when the bad guy makes his move (a hijacking for example) his adrenaline is surging and his awareness and and reflexes are going to be much faster and more primed than yours. Back then we were told so look for signs of them "crashing" before we even considered any sort of resistance or counter- attack.

The bad guys have been doing ODDA for about 30-90 minutes prior while your we're getting into The Dark Knight Rises or staring into a sweet mademoiselle's eyes.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:07 pm 
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This.
the_alias wrote:
Quote:
Running scenarios through your head so you act instead of freeze. This is a big one, see yourself doing something.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:23 pm 
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I appreciate everything being posted in this thread and am paying close attention. If I'm not posting it will not be that I'm not here anymore or not listening/interested but instead that I'm processing what you are saying and attempting to picture your tips in my mind to move further toward implementing them.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:57 pm 
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There are many problems that you face with a larger scale terrorist style attack that you don't have to be as concerned about with an active shooter situation. For example with a terrorist attack if you close the distance to attempt to grapple with the shooter your chance of becoming a casualty will likely increase as the suicide attacker is much more likely to have a bomb and then blow himself up to avoid being captured.

I think it is safe to say that absent any other clues in regard to what type of attack you may be facing it will be an active shooter situation as these are much more common. Some indicators that it may be a terrorist attack instead of an ASA might be:

- Statements made by the attackers
- Attackers being heavily perfumed
- Two or more attackers, especially three or more attackers
- Verified information of other ongoing/ completed attacks in the area
- Dressed in either heavy or loose fitting clothing
- Disproportionate weight in the mid section
- A bulky appearance

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:59 am 
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The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.[4]

The color code, as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state of mind. As taught by Cooper, it relates to the degree of peril you are willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given situation. Cooper did not claim to have invented anything in particular with the color code, but he was apparently the first to use it as an indication of mental state.[5]

The following is from The Carry Book: Minnesota Edition, 2011:[6]
White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."

Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.

Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person" — 'X' has happened, the fight is on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:04 am 
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Quote:
The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills.


I am going to go ahead and disagree with Cooper for a variety of reasons. A trained sniper in a hide with a sniper rifle is going to make toast of me 99 times out of 100 even if I have the mindset of Chesty Puller.

It would be a pretty long essay to explain why Cooper's ideas don't really apply here. but it goes to his basic assumptions and the type of conflict he was discussing. We can't make any assumptions that the secarios faced would be remotely similar.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:25 am 
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flybynight wrote:
The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset
..............
White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."

Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.

Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person" — 'X' has happened, the fight is on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

It's adaptable for me though. I 'won't' be carrying anytime in the foreseen future. ($$, training, legal carry permits, etc) But the code colors corresponding with training me in a personal alert level IS something I can work with at any time. Its usefulness to me jumped off the screen when I read it.


Last edited by zombiepreparation on Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:43 am 
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adam766 wrote:

If you think your going to get an air ambulance in a reasonable time frame for a heart attack or stroke just because you live somewhere a bit rural you are sadly mistaken. Most are dispatched on ambulance crew request and normally only really deal with trauma and cardiac arrests.



maybe not in America because of the distances involved, in the UK its quicker to send an air ambulance to a rural call out than sending a road ambulance, an air ambulance is often seen in this area its not an uncommon occurrence.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:10 am 
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whilst no one wants to stop what they are doing, in an age and time where Islamic Extremism is a real and possible threat, everything we do must be given due consideration in regard to reducing our exposure to risk, I think there used to be an old WW2 poster that went : "is your journey really necessary?".
I don't think many people if they followed their own advice would be alive the next morning, after an attack like Paris, to talk about it.
Denial is just a river in Egypt.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:37 am 
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Quote:
I don't think many people if they followed their own advice would be alive the next morning, after an attack like Paris, to talk about it.


Feel free to expound on that.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:58 am 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aClcBmZfK9A


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:03 am 
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Stercutus wrote:
There are many problems that you face with a larger scale terrorist style attack that you don't have to be as concerned about with an active shooter situation. For example with a terrorist attack if you close the distance to attempt to grapple with the shooter your chance of becoming a casualty will likely increase as the suicide attacker is much more likely to have a bomb and then blow himself up to avoid being captured.

I think it is safe to say that absent any other clues in regard to what type of attack you may be facing it will be an active shooter situation as these are much more common. Some indicators that it may be a terrorist attack instead of an ASA might be:

- Statements made by the attackers
- Attackers being heavily perfumed
- Two or more attackers, especially three or more attackers
- Verified information of other ongoing/ completed attacks in the area
- Dressed in either heavy or loose fitting clothing
- Disproportionate weight in the mid section
- A bulky appearance


If you have a look at anti theft stuff. The traits become similar.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:14 am 
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talked to a few people by email this morning, best advise is still "stay out of the capital", if someone wants to go out for a meal or to a theatre the regional centres are just as good and in most cases not as expensive, and a lot safer.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:20 am 
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With a terrorist attack the "hide" and "flee" options present us with a problem that is not normally present in the ASA.

As the attackers are more likely to have explosives You will need to flee to a safe distance (normally at least 300 meters) and be mindful that a complex attack might involve explosives placed around the area. If your organization has a plan to flee to parking area if they are under attack this might not be a good idea as there could be a VBIED in that area. I would leave the target area completely and inform whoever is taking accountability of personnel that you have removed yourself, when appropriate.

Trying to shelter in place could be a problem as you might still be in a danger area and the structure you are in could catch fire. Distance might be a better friend than cover but you will have to make that determination yourself.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:55 am 
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I brought this up about a year ago, I highly recommend watching the HBO program "Terror At The Mall"
It is a documentary about the Westgate mall attack in Nairobi Kenya.

What makes this unique is that most of the footage comes from the many video surveillance systems in the mall.

The attack was carried out by multiple Islamic extremist gunmen with AKs and determined to maximum harm.

Worth viewing.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:19 am 
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zombiepreparation wrote:

What lowkey writes "Take a good look around the places you go. Spot the exits, even the ones you'd normally never use.
Look for hardened hiding places.
Storm sewers.
Service tunnels.
If this type of attack takes place, most laws will permit you to do things that would otherwise be considered unlawful, such as breaking doors, locks, ect in order to escape(There is a legal term for this doctrine, but it slips my mind at the moment). So when it happens...GO! Don't wait, just get out and away from the crowds. Stay to the dark places, and put as much distance between the sound of the guns and yourself as you can. All else fails, go to ground and don't move, don't make a sound."
is useful beginning knowledge for me. And I would listen closely to more detail suggestions or deeper discussion of how I can apply this. So even though is might sound self-explanatory to many of us and again trivial, it is not necessarily so to me, and many others like me.

Like what is meant by 'hardened' hiding places....hiding places that offer cover as well as concealment. "Cover" means something that will stop small arms fire. A fabric curtain may offer concealment but it does not provide cover.
Crawling inside a trash can might hide you from view, but if the bad guy fires at people running past it you're going to be hit.


and/or 'how' or 'what are some suggestions' to implement 'go to ground' if I am in a theater, music event, parade, bus, other? I understand the don't move/make a sound, I am fuzzy on the fall down and play dead in the middle of a zombie attack to minimize notice of me when they are moving in and out of the area I am hiding in plain sight due to lack of available cover.
The folks who survived these attacks by hiding under the bodies of the dead "went to ground".
Hiding when left with only minimal concealment and counting on total lack of movement to keep from drawing attention to yourself. It's not best, but better than drawing attention to yourself.



I get the 'avoid crowds', but there again I am being driven by the possibility of zombies which I wish to not do. So I will learn to avoid unnecessary crowds for sure, but the crowds that also add to my quality of life can be somehow analyzed for mitigation in face of a zombie attack.
If you're going to go to crowded places, stay near the edges of the crowd and near the exits. First sign of trouble and you're out the door and down the street.
If in a vehicle, don't be shy about driving over curbs, across green spaces, ect. To hell with the undercarriage of your car.....if it gets you 1-2 KM away from the attack and dies on you, who cares? You can replace it later and you're (hopefully) out of the "kill zone". I'm fairly sure that any traffic court in the Western World will waive any fines related to your driving if you were escaping a terrorist attack, and if not I'd still rather be alive to pay the fines.


I am urban. Moving away is not even an option. Learning more about how to better prepare within this environment is what I understood the thread is about, and what is important for me to learn. Right? Not how to never go to a shopping center, not ever go to the theater, not ever go..... but what I can teach myself to better notice nefarious possibilities and actors who may be trying to conceal their zombieness 'where' I am. Learn to condition myself to respond 'some way' I don't yet get the picture of that will better my chance of surviving a sudden public zombie attack were it to begin.

If it's possible where you live, go to a gun range and learn how to shoot. Not from the "tough guy" angle, as I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that where you live it's not likely that you're allowed to own/carry a handgun, but so that you become familiar with the sound of them being fired, learn what they can and cannot do, and generally overcome any intrinsic fears you may have of them. Don't mistake me, having a loaded one pointed at you with intent will still be scary, but familiarization with them may keep that fear from being paralyzing.
One of the many things that occurs during military training for the US Army is that trainees crawl under strands of barbed wire while machine guns are fired just over their heads. Quite disturbing to hear the round going "zip" over your head...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:21 am 
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Quote:
One of the many things that occurs during military training for the US Army is that trainees crawl under strands of barbed wire while machine guns are fired just over their heads.


If by "just above" you mean 20' above then yep. Still it can be quite discomforting to most.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:07 am 
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Stercutus wrote:
Quote:
One of the many things that occurs during military training for the US Army is that trainees crawl under strands of barbed wire while machine guns are fired just over their heads.


If by "just above" you mean 20' above then yep. Still it can be quite discomforting to most.

Ah...but they don't tell the trainees that at the time.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:55 am 
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LowKey wrote:


All else fails, go to ground and don't move, don't make a sound.


This is good advice and is something I've always told myself that I would do if something bad started going down. However, once I got in a serious situation, I found that my plan went out the window. I was doing inventory in a grocery store (Publix for those who are familiar) when 3 masked men burst in with guns. They screamed for everybody to hit the floor. My co-worker standing behind me immediately hit the floor and I immediately turned around, jumped over my co-worker and ran about 10 ft to the stock area, in the back. There I told the store manager what was going on as I was running towards the exit. I was literally outside within 20 seconds of being told to hit the floor.

Now, in this situation, it worked out for me but it's not the way that I'd always said I would handle a situation like that. Honestly, I didn't even have time to assess the situation and come up with a plan because if I did, I, in all likelihood, would've just laid on the floor next to my co-worker. As a person with social anxiety, drawing attention to myself is absolutely the last thing I would ever want to do. However, my legs had a mind of their own and their plan was vastly different from mine. Fortunately, it worked out fine for me but it wasn't what I'd planned.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:51 am 
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maddieparker wrote:
I was doing inventory in a grocery store (Publix for those who are familiar) when 3 masked men burst in with guns. They screamed for everybody to hit the floor. ....I was literally outside within 20 seconds of being told to hit the floor.

.....my legs had a mind of their own and their plan was vastly different from mine. Fortunately, it worked out fine for me but it wasn't what I'd planned.


What happened to the other people in the store? Not faulting you, just wondering if anyone was pistol-whipped, beaten, raped or shot? Did the Mounties come in to save the day or did the thieves get the cash and leave without harming anyone?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:10 am 
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:
What happened to the other people in the store? Not faulting you, just wondering if anyone was pistol-whipped, beaten, raped or shot? Did the Mounties come in to save the day or did the thieves get the cash and leave without harming anyone?


No one was shot, thankfully but two people got beaten up. One of them was a cashier that wasn't moving fast enough for their liking and got her jaw broken by the butt of a gun. The other was a co-worker (not the one I jumped over). The manager, that I notified as I was exiting stage left, called the police and they arrived within a couple of minutes because a police substation was nearby. They actually got there just as the guys were leaving the store. Two were caught right then, the third one and a getaway driver were caught a few miles away.

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