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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:45 am 
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Interesting contrasting with the US.

On the US side our borders are completely porous to the North and South. It would probably be much easier to bypass a LPOE than a SPOE. Of course once inside the country they would have practically unlimited freedom of maneuver and could attack anywhere. An "amphibious landing" attack would be tough to pull off.

Most police forces in the larger US cities are vastly better trained, equipped and resourced than the Mumbai locals were. It would take a fairly huge attack to overwhelm one of them to the point of culmination. Something that we have not yet seen.

Most departments of any size have a SWAT team of sorts on a fairly short leash with muster and response times under 30 minutes. Adjacent departments would likely assist with any localized threats. Military response would be very slow.

Few police have jamming devices, not sure those that have them would think to employ them in that way or how effective they would be. That seems kind of pie in the sky to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:22 am 
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Stercutus wrote:
Interesting contrasting with the US.

On the US side our borders are completely porous to the North and South. It would probably be much easier to bypass a LPOE than a SPOE. Of course once inside the country they would have practically unlimited freedom of maneuver and could attack anywhere. An "amphibious landing" attack would be tough to pull off.


They did not attack at the landing point, it was only the point of infiltration and then they moved to their assigned targets. Come to Charleston Harbor, easy to just drive a boat and dock it and get into a car. I think we have 2 coast guard boats that patrol.

Stercutus wrote:
Interesting contrasting with the US.
Most police forces in the larger US cities are vastly better trained, equipped and resourced than the Mumbai locals were. It would take a fairly huge attack to overwhelm one of them to the point of culmination. Something that we have not yet seen.

Most departments of any size have a SWAT team of sorts on a fairly short leash with muster and response times under 30 minutes. Adjacent departments would likely assist with any localized threats. Military response would be very slow.


Remember the LA bank robbery where the guys had armor and AKs? Imagine that x4 on the same day, same time. IMO, most cities under 1m people would not have enough SWAT teams to handle it. Here's Charleston SC SWAT teams: http://www.charleston-sc.gov/index.aspx?NID=462

But yes, most likely the military would be slow since we don't generally deploy US forces to handle these types of incidents. It would be the FBI responding and response times would be dictated by distance from the event. Meaning, not every city has a FBI unit capable of handing these events.

Stercutus wrote:
Few police have jamming devices, not sure those that have them would think to employ them in that way or how effective they would be. That seems kind of pie in the sky to me.


FBI has them and would bring them. You really didn't think they'd let the locals handle an incident like this did you? Especially once the media gets the story out.


Edit:
Remember that the paper was done on Mumbai Attacks and not an attempt to use their event as an equal representation for US.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:33 am 
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Something we identified here in MA after the marathon bombing, police units from other jurisdictions including other states self deployed without a firm Command structure in place to deal with agencies not associated with local mutual aid agreements. If that happens in a coordinated attack, you could log jam a police response in one area inadvertently. I just assume I'm on my own as a civilian and volunteer First Responder, I plan accordingly.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:44 pm 
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Remember the LA bank robbery where the guys had armor and AKs? Imagine that x4 on the same day, same time. IMO, most cities under 1m people would not have enough SWAT teams to handle it. Here's Charleston SC SWAT teams: http://www.charleston-sc.gov/index.aspx?NID=462


Actually they did not just have AK-47s. Once used and HK-91 and a Type 56, the other used an AR-15 and an AKM, both had 92Fs. A lot has changed since then. In most departments many of the patrol officers now carry rifles in their vehicles instead of (or with) shotguns. A lot of units also have rifle plate carriers to throw over their duty uniforms for such scenarios. Training has improved significantly too.

Still it was all over in under an hour.

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FBI has them and would bring them. You really didn't think they'd let the locals handle an incident like this did you? Especially once the media gets the story out.


I actually I do. The FBI does not have enough resources to engage in fighting terrorists on the streets of the US at a moments notice. I figure it will be more like the Boston Bombing episode. The FBI will provide certain enhancements and intelligence; the locals will be in charge and do all the heavy lifting and leading. If it goes on long enough the State Police/ State LEAs and the NG will get involved.

If they have a jammer, the authority to use it, the proper intelligence to employ it etc, etc maybe they will.

I know how the FBI is portrayed in the movies (coming in, squabbling with the locals and taking over) but their authority does not actually allow them to do many of the things you see in the movies. Additionally most of them are smart enough to realize that the locals have tons of advantages over an outsider coming and trying to run things.

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Edit:
Remember that the paper was done on Mumbai Attacks and not an attempt to use their event as an equal representation for US.


Of course I am just drawing comparisons since that is the type of attack under discussion.



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I just assume I'm on my own as a civilian and volunteer First Responder, I plan accordingly.


That is a pretty safe bet. Just remember it was a a concerned citizen and a local cop who found the bad guys.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:03 pm 
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This article has video of one attack at a restaurant. Honestly the only suggestion I have is the obvious, get down, seek cover, count on a bit of good fortune and keep moving. If you have a CCW be prepared to retur fire if the opportunity presents itself.

Note this the link to The Daily Mail article ...caveat lector

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:49 pm 
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The French government have recently issued advice on what to do in the event of a terrorist attack.

http://www.gouvernement.fr/reagir-attaque-terroriste

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Run - Hide - Report (possibly not the exact words used, but that's the intent).

It's taking all my effort to not comment on the lack of "- Fight" from the French :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:01 pm 
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sheddi wrote:

It's taking all my effort to not comment on the lack of "- Fight" from the French :)


For the record the last bit is not advising surrender.
The last bit is advising people to NOT to run to the security forces and if you do, keep your hands up and visible...because they may assume you are hostile and will kill you.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:04 pm 
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Honestly in the case of terrorist attack it is an occasion where fighting is simply not a good idea under nearly all circumstances. You would have to have a near perfect confluence of events to even have a shot of beating the bad guy/s.

The guys that that fought it out with the train attacker got smiled on by fate when the shooters gun jammed. If that had not happened we would probably be talking about three dead Americans in addition to many others. They noticed that his gun had jammed and took advantage, circumstances like that may never happen again.

Even if you defeat an attacker you could still lose if he has bomb/s rigged or his partner/s kill you. The odds are horribly stacked against you.


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For the record the last bit is not advising surrender.


I am glad we straightened that out. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:17 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:13 pm 
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raptor wrote:
For the record the last bit is not advising surrender.
The last bit is advising people to NOT to run to the security forces and if you do, keep your hands up and visible...because they may assume you are hostile and will kill you.

This was my intended counterpoint in the locked thread.

Run at an identified cop with his gun out during a gunfight with classical terrorists? That is the Chris Rock definition of crazy and I won't be giving you a disorderly conduct summons at the end.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:11 am 
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Indeed, the possibility that a shooter could also be wearing an explosive device would motivate me to haul ass in the opposite direction.

Odd how U.S. shooters tend to commit suicide by shooting themselves, as opposed to continuing their self-centered killing spree with an SVEST.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:41 pm 
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davidyakoo wrote:
Indeed, the possibility that a shooter could also be wearing an explosive device would motivate me to haul ass in the opposite direction.

Odd how U.S. shooters tend to commit suicide by shooting themselves, as opposed to continuing their self-centered killing spree with an SVEST.


Not really. Most of the shooters in the US operate individually and are so nutty and/or drug addled they can barely launch an attack. Putting together an SVEST with no training is a little bit too much.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:06 am 
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A lot of posters in this thread are confusing how one should fight in the event they get caught in a terrorist (or active shooter) attack.

There are, very basically, three actions you can take in a gun fight. You can attack, you can defend, or you can retreat.

Attacking is simply moving towards the enemy with the intention of closing with and destroying said enemy. This is not the best idea for your average (or even unaverage) CCW holder and is highly discouraged. You are most likely not equipped for this option and even if you have all the go fast gear in your car, you stand a better chance of getting in the way of responding officers and making things worse then helping.

Defending is the "fight" part of the run, hide, fight mantra. It is getting in a hard spot and playing Alamo. This has some advantages and some disadvantages. The major upside to this is that if you do it right you can channel the attacker(s) to make the most of your available firepower. You are essentially setting up an ambush. If there is more then one person with a gun present or you have a spare and someone you trust to loan it to, you can set up an L shaped ambush, or "crossfire". The downside is that you are now stuck in one place and can be overwhelmed by superior firepower, trapped in case of a fire, or have anyone that was injured slowly bleed to death in front of you while waiting for EMS. This last bit happened during Columbine when an injured teacher locked himself and some students in a storeroom and then succumbed to his injuries while waiting for help. I saw an interview with some of the kids that were locked in there with him, and they were extremely traumatized to say the least.

The last part is the one I prefer if at all possible. That is retreat. This can be as simple as saying "Nope!" on hearing gunfire and heading for the nearest exit or it could take the form of a break contact drill. A break contract drill is best done with at least two shooters and is very basically one person moving away from the bad guys while the other provides cover fire to keep their head down, once the first person gets a short distance away, they stop and provide cover fire for the first shooter to move. The two elements take turns leapfrogging until they are out of danger and can run to maximize distance. A modified version of this might be for a civilian CCW holder to put down fire while his family gets out of danger, then tries to flee himself.

Here is a simple video illustrating a break contact drill.

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