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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:28 am 
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Given last nights tragic events in France detailed in this thread viewtopic.php?f=22&t=117373 it seems time to have another discussion on how best to prepare for a Mumbai/Paris style attack.

Topics for consideration:

What can we learn from this latest attack?

What if you can't be armed with a CCW? In Europe "have a gun" just doesn't work.

If you are in the US and are armed how do you engage, do you engage?

What should your EDC first aid kit contain? TQ's Izzys, Celox, etc?

How do you evaluate your environment? How do you profile people/places for danger?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:41 am 
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Some more early info to help discussion:

Map of the attacks:
Image


Reports coming out suggest the attackers moved through (or down) the street shooting at random. The map seems to support this in part.

On a live stream last night I heard reports from a restaurant near the shootings that closed its shutters, lights off, and hid and avoided attacks.

The shooting at the concert hall was the most deadly 100+ reported dead. Details of which are now coming out:
Quote:
“It lasted between 10 and 15 minutes. It was extremely violent and there was panic. The attackers had enough time to reload at least three times. They were very young.”

Police say at least 112 people were killed inside the theater. The attackers were all either killed by police or detonated explosives to kill themselves as police closed in.


The venue had a capacity of 1500.

The Stade de France had around 70,000 people in attendance and there were suicide bombings outside the stadium which killed relatively few people it seems. Perhaps they were trying to get into the stadium? No word on that yet.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:43 am 
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I compiled my posts below and subbed them in here into a WoT, enjoy.

Since it is a large problem and similar to a different problem we can break it into three familiar parts:

Avoidance
Deterrence
Deescalate

There is no way to deescalate a terrorist attack. For individuals it is very difficult to deter an attack as well. Most attacks are aimed at crowds, installations and fixtures. The terrorist expects to die and in his (most likely) drugged and/or drunken state will be making poor decisions towards risk.

So another way:
Avoidance
Pre-Attack Detection and Reporting
Active Defense Measures

Active Defense Measures should follow the "Flee, Hide, Fight" format as whatever is appropriate for the circumstances at hand. Flee, hide, fight is not necessarily a pattern or series of events. For example if you are within arms reach of an attacker the chances of you fleeing or hiding successfully are very low.
If you have the time you should first try to determine if the attack is a an Active Shooter Attack or a full blown Mumbai Style Terror Attack.
There are many problems that you face with a larger scale terrorist style attack that you don't have to be as concerned about with an active shooter situation. For example with a terrorist attack if you close the distance to attempt to grapple with the shooter your chance of becoming a casualty will likely increase as the suicide attacker is much more likely to have a bomb and then blow himself up to avoid being captured.

I think it is safe to say that absent any other clues in regard to what type of attack you may be facing it will be an active shooter situation as these are much more common. Some indicators that it may be a terrorist attack instead of an ASA might be:

- Statements made by the attackers
- Attackers being heavily perfumed
- Two or more attackers, especially three or more attackers
- Verified information of other ongoing/ completed attacks in the area
- Dressed in either heavy or loose fitting clothing
- Disproportionate weight in the mid section
- A bulky appearance

With a Mumbai Style attack the size and scale of the attack or going to be completely different than an ASA. With an active shooter once the shooter is killed the attack is most likely over. In the unlikely event that there is a second shooter that should resolve quickly too. I don't know of any active shooter cases that involved three assailants, it would certainly deviate from the norm. Normally these are over in under 30 minutes. With a large scale terrorist attacks these could go on for hours or days. You could even be locked down in your home for quite a while if you are in an affected area.

Active Shooter vs Terrorist:

Profile:
The vast majority of Active Shooters are single actor males 13-50, diagnosed with a type of mental illness and are nearly always taking medication to control mood or behavior. They are likely known to their victims who are not in complete surprise at their sudden violence. They don't often do research, planning or rehearsals.
Mumbai style Terrorist Attackers are mostly 2+ attackers, males 18-30, possibly with females intermixed. They may take drugs/ alcohol prior to the attack but are not normal users of such. They research and plan their targets out who are most often strangers. They likely will rehearse their attacks publicly if surreptitiously if they are able.

There are "lone wolf attackers" such as Nidal Hassan and others. While his goals were that of a terrorist he better fit the profile of a active shooter. We are not discussing "lone wolf" attackers though.

Goals:
The active shooter doesn't really have goals. Mostly he is seeking revenge for being alive by killing as many people as possible. When confronted by the police or nearly out of ammo he will most often kill himself with his weapon. Typically they will be atheist or non-religious.

The terrorist is in a propaganda war and being directed by other who are too important (read: too afraid) to take action themselves. These days they are nearly all Islamic but in the past Communist Red Army members commonly conducted these types of attacks. The Japanese Red Army was especially brutal ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Red_Army ) The Lod Airport Attack being quite notable. Sadly these types of attacks are not really "new" and there is no reason to think that Islamists will hold a monopoly on bad behavior in the future.

Terrorists want to implement a change in government and/or government policy. They may even be seeking to make the government more restrictive such as in the Charlie attack. They seek to undermine the legitimacy of the current government and change the current government that is in place by proving to the population that the government is unable to fill it's role and duty of protecting the population. To do this it is important to attack symbols of power and culture as well as killing as many people as possible. Religious targets are often avoided in the West (likely because of the separation of church and state). In the Middle East religious targets are the norm.

Mindset:
An active shooter is most likely going to be mentally ill. Mindset is not really a factor as behavior is random if somewhat predictable.

A terrorist will be committed to his goals and accomplishing his mission to death if need be. He will keep working and fighting until his goals are met or they can not be met.

Neither wishes to be captured alive and will try to kill themselves in the end. The terrorist is much more likely to have a bomb so that he can kill as many people as he can when he takes himself out.

Resourcing:
An active shooter will most likely be armed with a semi-automatic weapon and is less likely to have explosives. They may or may not wear "tactical gear" with extra magazines. Pistols are common.

Terrorist attackers most likely will be wearing tactical gear, have explosives, extra ammo and possibly automatic weapons. They will most likely have a long gun. They will have communication devices to communicate with other members of their team. They may be dressed alike or similarly.

***

Avoidance

In my mind "Avoidance" isn't "don't go anywhere there could possibly be a threat" but more along the lines of keeping yourself from becoming an easy target.
A list of some best practices, by no means an all inclusive list:

Things to avoid while in a public place where you could be at risk:
- Being in poor physical condition (obesity, unable to run at least one mile)
- Fatigue
- Intoxication
- An overtaxed span of control (being responsible for too many children, etc)
- Disarmed
- Excessive distraction or sensory exclusion by electronic devices

Things to do:
- Be in the best physical condition that you can be, recognize your limitations and have a plan to deal with them
- Be alert and fully aware of your surroundings (Ingress, Egress, Cover, Concealment, Security)
- When going to an event, research it thoroughly and weigh the risks if any
There are a number of things that you can do that are relevant and are also techniques to avoid becoming a crime victim as well:

- Always have your fully charged cell phone with you
- Travel with others when possible
- Use a buddy system when traveling. Two or more sets of eyes are 2-3 times as effective as one.
- At times of heightened concern, have the radio (music) off
- Know where your safe havens are. Where will you go in the event of an attack? This is a step beyond an escape route. Normally for a criminal attack you would go to a police station as a safe haven. This would not be wise in the event of a terror attack as a police station would likely be chaotic and possibly on lock down. It may also be the target of an attack.
- Immediately use your cell phone to contact police and stay on the line, if safe to do so. If you can't get in contact with a dispatcher during an attack don't be surprised. Keep trying if safe to do so but don't make that the focus of your survival efforts. Even if you can't speak try to keep the line open so the dispatcher can hear what is going on.

In the aftermath of an attack terrorists may attempt to car jack a vehicle and kidnap the occupants to aid in their escape. Some techniques to avoid attack in this case:

- Drive with windows up and doors locked.
- If someone tries to get into your vehicle, drive off immediately. If this is not possible, use your horn to draw the attention of others to what is happening
- When stopped at an intersection or in traffic, always leave one car length between you and the vehicle ahead (can you see where the rear wheels of the car in front touch the road?). In case of emergency, this space provides you space to turn and leave quickly
- If you are approached in traffic by a person on foot or intimidated / threatened / attacked by another vehicle, leave the area immediately. If it’s safe to do, go through a red light if you’re stopped at one

***

Pre-Attack Detection and Reporting


To detect and report a possible attack requires both detection and the follow through to let someone know about suspicious behavior.

Some people have better instincts than others and if you are being vigilant you may notice something subconsciously that your conscious mind has not had to time to consider or account for. These are going to give you a "feeling of wrongness" about a situation. Most soldiers and cops have these types instincts or develop them over time. If you are familiar with the area or activities in the area and everything seems "off" it may well be the case.

Putting something instinctual into words is going to be tough. If you are not in a position of authority or security you are going to have to keep observing and thinking it through to figure out what is "wrong". Sometimes discussing it with someone else may cause that person to key in on it as well. Keep in mind that the attackers are trying to avoid being detected prior to the attack.

If you do notice a threat or suspicious activity and are able to articulate it then you should contact the local police and let them sort it out. Don't worry horribly about being wrong. Cops go on numerous calls all day long that turn out to be nothing. Another one won't matter if it turns out to be nothing. You don't want to become the local crazy that reports inane and non-existent stuff every day or week but if you have a real concern then make it known.

Request to make contact with the responding officers. They may not get the proper word of what you reported or they may need to talk to you to get clarification on something. If you make a report at minimum you want to be able to report:

- Brief description of the activity
- Date, time and location of the activity
- Physical identifiers of anyone you observed (clothing, height, weight, skin color, gender etc)
- Descriptions of vehicles (tag # and state but also color, make and model as it could be a switched tag)
- Information about where people involved in suspicious activities may have gone
- Your name and contact information (optional, but recommended as noted above)

If you honestly believe an attack is imminent than you want to get the hell out of the area first or call on your way out.

***

Flee/ Hide/ Fight


***

Flee

The option that will provide you with your best chances of survivability would be to flee. Keep in mind that this will be an instinctual response for just about everyone who perceives a threat such as an active shooter or a bomb going off. This means you could be trampled in a crowd. Given the option of facing near certain death if you stay in an area under attack this is still a good option.

Sometimes complex attacks involve either luring or herding a crowd in the direction of a preplanted bomb or another cell member with an SVEST. Luring is done to lure security forces into a danger area, herding is done to drive people fleeing the area to a certain place where a follow on attack will take place. I'd be aware of this only to the point where you do not want to congregate with a large crowd when an attack is taking place and you want to get as far away from the attack site as possible.

If the police or other security forces stop you and detain you that is a separate issue. You will have to comply with their directives.

When Fleeing:

- Decide if you can safely evacuate. If you can't run because of infirmity or physical limitations it might still be worth walking as quickly as you can.
- When you go, you may have to leave people behind who don't want to leave. Consider what duty and responsibility you have towards those people, if any. Don't spend a lot of time trying to convince them. If it is feasible to leave them then go.
- Don't take anything that will slow you down. Whatever it is you can probably replace it.
- Run in a zigzag pattern as fast as you can
- If shooting is currently active seek cover. Look for another covered position in the direction you are trying to escape towards while remaining under cover. Run towards that position when it seems best to do so. That may be when shooting has stopped, it may be when the shooter is shooting another direction. If there are multiple shooters there may not be a good time.
- Carefully consider if you want to evacuate any casualties. If you are untrained you could do more harm than good. If you don't know the person they could be an attacker. It is probably best to leave them for security forces and trained paramedics.
- If you have a weapon be prepared to use it if you encounter another attacker while fleeing. Don't carry it in your hand if possible as you may be confused with an attacker.
- Do not stop running until you are far away from the scene. Then keep going to your safe haven.
- If a window is your only escape route consider if the fall from a window would kill you or disable you making you unable to flee.
- If you decide to flee out the window break out window if needed and attempt to quickly clear glass from the frame.
- Consider using belts, clothing, or other items as an improvised rope to shorten the distance you would fall.
- Hang by your hands from the window ledge to shorten the drop.
- Attempt to drop into shrubs, mulch, or grass to lessen the injury. (I know so... The Other Guys)
- If you flee in a vehicle the police may try to stop you. Comply with all their instructions.
- Be prepared to switch to "Hide" if fleeing becomes untenable.

***
Hiding.


Most people on this site are aware that concealment hides you and cover protects you. While cover protects you it is mostly understood that it protects you from small arms fire. This likely won't be enough if the attacker is armed with explosives, RPG's, or other heavy weapons. Explosives have a number of different effects the range of which can vary greatly depending upon type, quantity, grade etc. They may be imbued with shrapnel or not. All you need to know are that what might protect you from small arms fire might not protect you from other heavier weapons.

4" of concrete will protect you from nearly all small arms fire, possibly even repeated hits. 18" of solid material is generally enough to protect you from most smaller blast effects. Cover won't make much difference if it is a giant car or truck bomb though as such a bomb will destroy even the most sturdy of non-hardened structures. The only thing that will protect you is not being there when it happens.

Hollywood cover (tables, doors, bars, sofas, car doors etc) does not work although it may help hide you.

Your hiding place should:
- Be out of the active shooter’s view as well as out of line with any potential targets or possible goals
- Provide protection if shots are fired in your direction
- Ideally you don't want to be trapped or cornered. That may not be an option.
- Provide the best cover possible

Once Hidden Inside:
- Lock the door
- Blockade the door with heavy furniture and whatever is available. Don't assume that if the door is secured with an enhanced locking system that it can't be easily defeated. Use ropes, belts, and ties to help secure it.
- Silence your cell phone and other electronic devices (make sure everyone you are with does this)
- Hide behind large items and out of the path of doors and windows (behind cabinets, desks etc)
- Remain quiet
- Stay away from any internal or external windows. If possible to do so without being seen block the windows as well.
- Treat any casualties if you are able to do so
- Gather weapons and potential weapons for use if the area is breached or your position becomes untenable (ie. the building is on fire or becomes structurally unstable)
- Post someone at entries to remain quiet and still to listen for potential attackers, that person should be ready with a weapon to assault a potential attacker who breaches the area, preferably by ambush

Some activities and remaining quiet are often mutually exclusive so do the loud ones first and as quickly as possible.

Best practices would mean that once the area is secure you do not open the door for ANYONE. This includes police and any other security forces who are clearing the area. The police will make entry regardless but will likely announce themselves. Just because someone announces themselves as police does not mean that they are obviously. If you are in contact with an emergency dispatcher they may try to coordinate it that way.

***

Fight


The action that will keep you in closest proximity to attackers and increase your likelihood of becoming a casualty is to fight. Normally this is a last resort. The odds of defeating a single Active Shooter who is likely poorly trained and deranged are not good if you are unarmed or not armed with a firearm. The numbers really plummet when faced with multiple terrorist attackers with training and explosives who are coordinating their attacks and have unity of purpose. Terrorist attackers also are planning on dealing with security forces at some point.

Police and soldiers don't fight these fights alone for good reason. Their training and equipment will likely be several factorials better than yours too. For them it will be a difficult fight but they plan to win. The best you will likely be able to do with an improvised weapon and a lot of luck is to stop one attacker, maybe.

With an active shooter yelling, throwing things and other acts of aggression are the general rule. These will merely draw attention to yourself if there are multiple attackers and move you up on their target list of people to kill next in a terror attack. If you are in a cooperative group your group might be able to swarm an attacker and bring him down. If he is armed with an SVEST all of you will likely end up as casualties when it detonates.

If you are armed with a firearm your chances improve slightly. Pistols are by and large a poor choice for a gun fight and most terrorists arm themselves with long guns. Mostly likely a small hand gun will be the only gun you have. They do offer concealment and the element of surprise.

When fighting a terrorist possibly armed with an SVEST you are going to want to be much more certain of shot placement. Head and neck shots are going to be best. You will want to avoid center mass shots if it all possible. Unless you are very good with a pistol and used to shooting under stress the chance of making a head or neck shot is going to be very low. If the attacker goes down from a head or neck shot he may still try to detonate his vest/ belt. Closing on in him would be unwise, seeking cover or running away would be smart.

If you do engage an attacker you will need to report your involvement to the police. If you don't they may spend time looking for a non-existent attacker.

Encounters With Security Forces


At some point security force will reclaim the area. Most likely local police will be the First Responders that you encounter first. Depending upon how bad the situation is it could be the National Guard. Either way your response should be the same. You want to present yourself as non-threatening victim. This means no weapons in hand.

- Remain calm, and follow officers’ instructions
- Avoid pointing, screaming and/or yelling unless there is an immediate threat.
- Immediately raise hands and spread fingers until directed to do otherwise.
- Do not stop to ask officers for help or direction when evacuating, just proceed in the direction from which officers are entering the premises or directing you to go. Now is not the time for a conversation.
- Keep hands visible at all times
- Avoid making quick movements toward officers such as attempting to hold on to them for safety

***

Post Attack


If you need medical attention seek it. If you don't stay away from all medical facilities as they will be slammed with activity.

You will want to report to the local police that you were at the scene and provide them with a statement if they request it. This may help a lot with their investigation. Don't embellish or make stuff up. Aside from possibly being perjury it will hurt the investigation and could subject you to criminal charges.

You will also want to monitor yourself and have others monitor you for PTSD. This is a tricky thing that can have unpredictable effects on your behavior. If you think you may be suffering from it seek medical attention.




For those unfamiliar much of the above is from the DHS PAM on how to respond to active shooters:

https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/act ... ooklet.pdf

Another useful source:

http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/ ... curity.pdf

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Last edited by Stercutus on Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:57 am 
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1. Stay out of large cities as much as you can(I haven't been into a city for at least 6 years and I don't intend to), if you have to go there, limit your stay, do your business and get out again...... fast.
2. Shop online, Ebay-Amazon, even Supermarkets deliver these days!
3. be "situationally aware" and watch what is going on around you-most people aren't and making "eye contact" is a thing of the past.
4. be a "grey man".

my personal opinion, as a UK resident.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:36 am 
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Quote:
1. Stay out of large cities as much as you can(I haven't been into a city for at least 6 years and I don't intend to), if you have to go there, limit your stay, do your business and get out again...... fast.

By no means am I criticizing those who do live how you describe but it isn't really overly useful advice on how to prepare against an attack like the one in Paris.

It's a bit like someone asking "How do I prepare for a tsunami?" "Well don't live near the coast" - it's true but only goes so far. Some of us live near coastlines or in cities so we need to take more active preparations.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:01 am 
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Take a good look around the places you go. Spot the exits, even the ones you'd normally never use.
Look for hardened hiding places.
Storm sewers.
Service tunnels.

If this type of attack takes place, most laws will permit you to do things that would otherwise be considered unlawful, such as breaking doors, locks, ect in order to escape(There is a legal term for this doctrine, but it slips my mind at the moment).

So when it happens...GO! Don't wait, just get out and away from the crowds. Stay to the dark places, and put as much distance between the sound of the guns and yourself as you can.

All else fails, go to ground and don't move, don't make a sound.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:30 am 
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the_alias wrote:
Quote:
1. Stay out of large cities as much as you can(I haven't been into a city for at least 6 years and I don't intend to), if you have to go there, limit your stay, do your business and get out again...... fast.

By no means am I criticizing those who do live how you describe but it isn't really overly useful advice on how to prepare against an attack like the one in Paris.

It's a bit like someone asking "How do I prepare for a tsunami?" "Well don't live near the coast" - it's true but only goes so far. Some of us live near coastlines or in cities so we need to take more active preparations.

this side of the water we have always advised that the best time to move out of a city is NOW before any event happens, if someone cant or wont do that, then they have to lessen their exposure to attack, attacks will always happen in cities as they are carried out for maximum effect. do what you can however small to lessen that impact. the only way to REALLY prepare for such an event is to not go there in the first place.
personally, I wouldn't work or live in a LARGE city if you paid me.(and I lived in a city for over 40 years).

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:43 am 
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We arrived in Paris last night just before the attacks began, they were already ongoing when we arrived at our hotel in central Paris. Everything seemed normal for Paris on a Friday night (we've been here before). We had no idea of anything untoward, in fact it was my mother back home in Ireland that alerted me by text.
tl:dr when you're in the midst of a situation, especially if you are travelling, sometimes you're the last to know :|


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After doing research on the Mumbai attacks for a class, here is my personal list:

  • Avoid crowds
  • Avoid public transportation
  • Take inventory of your environment: exits, no-go zones (bad neighborhoods), local emergency call #s
  • Do not draw attention to yourself

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:31 am 
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Short of not living in a big city and always practicing situational awareness, there is nothing you can do except hope it will never happen to you.
If you find yourself in such a situation, it will come down mostly to sheer luck (for example the people in the concert hall that were next to a stairwell and could escape to the roof) and a little bit to how well you react. But I can't think of anything that could prepare you for this.

One thing is for sure: living your life in fear is exactly what the terrorists want and the one thing we mustn't give them.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:09 pm 
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chenessfan wrote:
One thing is for sure: living your life in fear is exactly what the terrorists want and the one thing we mustn't give them.

Huzzah!
Absolutely correct.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:22 pm 
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chenessfan wrote:

One thing is for sure: living your life in fear is exactly what the terrorists want and the one thing we mustn't give them.

so don't give them the opportunity.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:28 pm 
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grumpyviking wrote:
this side of the water we have always advised that the best time to move out of a city is NOW ...

Who are we?

Quote:
... before any event happens, if someone cant or wont do that, then they have to lessen their exposure to attack, attacks will always happen in cities as they are carried out for maximum effect. do what you can however small to lessen that impact. the only way to REALLY prepare for such an event is to not go there in the first place.
personally, I wouldn't work or live in a LARGE city if you paid me.(and I lived in a city for over 40 years).


You probably do reduce your risk of involvement in a terrorist attack by avoiding cities. On the other hand, in a rural environment with longer emergency response times, you increase your risk of death from a heart attack, stroke or a myriad of other issues. I know which is the greater risk.

Living outside of a city is, in my opinion, an admirable life-style choice, but not for the reasons you give.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:44 pm 
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B&Q wrote:
grumpyviking wrote:
this side of the water we have always advised that the best time to move out of a city is NOW ...

Who are we? "WE" ARE BRITISH PREPPERS.



You probably do reduce your risk of involvement in a terrorist attack by avoiding cities. On the other hand, in a rural environment with longer emergency response times, you increase your risk of death from a heart attack, stroke or a myriad of other issues. I know which is the greater risk.
NEVER HEARD OF AN "AIR AMBULANCE"??
Living outside of a city is, in my opinion, an admirable life-style choice, but not for the reasons you give.[/quote]

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:37 pm 
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I work in concert halls and stadiums like the ones attacked. I'm usually legally not allowed to have a "weapon" at work.

I still have plans, options and contingencies.
I know ways in and out that most dont. I know many places to hide, even in plain sight.
I have acces to many "tools" that can become weapons.
I/we control the room. We can make it dark, loud, filled with fog, even drop heavy things on bad guys. Or make the stage move and crush them or open a pit for them to fall in.

I carry a small disaster FAK, pocket knife, flashlight and tools.

I am not "defenseless".

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:49 pm 
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Maybe since it is a large problem and similar to a different problem we can break it into three familiar parts:

Avoidance

Deterrence

Deescalate


There is no way to deescalate a terrorist attack. For individuals it is very difficult to deter an attack as well. Most attacks are aimed at crowds, installations and fixtures. The terrorist expects to die and in his (most likely) drugged and/or drunken state will be making poor decisions towards risk.


So another way:

Avoidance

Pre-Attack Detection and Reporting

Active Defense Measures



Active Defense Measures should follow the "Flee, Hide, Fight" format as whatever is appropriate for the circumstances at hand.

Flee, hide, fight is not necessarily a pattern or series of events. For example if you are within arms reach of an attacker the chances of you fleeing or hiding successfully are very low.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:46 pm 
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If your advice is going to be a variation of "Don't live in a city" please refrain from posting in here.

It's been said. We hear you.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:59 pm 
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the_alias wrote:
If your advice is going to be a variation of "Don't live in a city" please refrain from posting in here.

It's been said. We hear you.




"Don't live in the city" doesn't work anyway.

Some attacks may be in population centers but within the population centers the targets are either venues that host large numbers of tourists or events (The Boston Marathon, stadiums, concert halls, churches, convention centers). Attacks also target every form of public transportation (Plane, train, bus).

So if your plan is to; "never go anywhere, never do anything, never visit anywhere, never leave your home" then ok, you are really reducing your chance of getting caught up in something. I can't really gauge what a sad commentary it will make of your life living in paranoid fear and seclusion. I doubt anyone will say at your funeral; "At least he didn't die in a terrorist attack".

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:01 pm 
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grumpyviking wrote:
B&Q wrote:
grumpyviking wrote:
this side of the water we have always advised that the best time to move out of a city is NOW ...

Who are we? "WE" ARE BRITISH PREPPERS.



You probably do reduce your risk of involvement in a terrorist attack by avoiding cities. On the other hand, in a rural environment with longer emergency response times, you increase your risk of death from a heart attack, stroke or a myriad of other issues. I know which is the greater risk.
NEVER HEARD OF AN "AIR AMBULANCE"??
Living outside of a city is, in my opinion, an admirable life-style choice, but not for the reasons you give.
[/quote]

If you think your going to get an air ambulance in a reasonable time frame for a heart attack or stroke just because you live somewhere a bit rural you are sadly mistaken. Most are dispatched on ambulance crew request and normally only really deal with trauma and cardiac arrests.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:20 pm 
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adam766 wrote:
grumpyviking wrote:
B&Q wrote:
grumpyviking wrote:
this side of the water we have always advised that the best time to move out of a city is NOW ...

Who are we? "WE" ARE BRITISH PREPPERS.



You probably do reduce your risk of involvement in a terrorist attack by avoiding cities. On the other hand, in a rural environment with longer emergency response times, you increase your risk of death from a heart attack, stroke or a myriad of other issues. I know which is the greater risk.
NEVER HEARD OF AN "AIR AMBULANCE"??
Living outside of a city is, in my opinion, an admirable life-style choice, but not for the reasons you give.


If you think your going to get an air ambulance in a reasonable time frame for a heart attack or stroke just because you live somewhere a bit rural you are sadly mistaken. Most are dispatched on ambulance crew request and normally only really deal with trauma and cardiac arrests.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]
Air Ambulance is routine in my neck of the woods.
YMMV, of course.

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Last edited by LowKey on Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:40 pm 
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My European raised wife often chides me, because the first thing I do is look for the fire exits. I'm too old for rock concerts, but there I think it would be hard to maintain situational awareness.

One witness to a street attack said at first they thought it was a French commando, black boots, black trousers (i will speculate BDUs) a black pull over sweater. They saw him fire his AK into a car, the turn and fire into a restaurant, then they wisely hauled ass in the opposite direction.

No word if they called the authorities.

Witnesses in the Bataclan theaters say the shooters reloaded three times. I don't know if I would have the awareness to rush a shooter while he reloads nor the speed to make for the exit.

BBC news interviewed two survivors who were protected by the bodies that fell on top of them and they crawled out over the dead of those frozen with fear.

The only other observation I have is look for massive objects bars, counters, chest freezers for taking cover behind or under.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:55 pm 
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the_alias wrote:
Given last nights tragic events in France detailed in this thread viewtopic.php?f=22&t=117373 it seems time to have another discussion on how best to prepare for a Mumbai/Paris style attack.

Topics for consideration:
How do you evaluate your environment? How do you profile people/places for danger?

Now here's the thing, my interest in 'learning' some of this is going to feel trivial to lots of us who will read this thread. I get that. But it is NOT trivial to me and others new to having zombies in our own area now, who are intent on indiscriminately harming. So I implore those of us who might be inclined to brush these questions off with mocking humor to at least consider the newness of many of us now and who will migrate to ZS looking for tips.

I want to continue this: As chenessfan wrote "One thing is for sure: living your life in fear is exactly what the terrorists want and the one thing we mustn't give them." I want tips on how to do this in a safe-'er' and more prepared manner.

What lowkey writes "Take a good look around the places you go. Spot the exits, even the ones you'd normally never use.
Look for hardened hiding places.
Storm sewers.
Service tunnels.
If this type of attack takes place, most laws will permit you to do things that would otherwise be considered unlawful, such as breaking doors, locks, ect in order to escape(There is a legal term for this doctrine, but it slips my mind at the moment). So when it happens...GO! Don't wait, just get out and away from the crowds. Stay to the dark places, and put as much distance between the sound of the guns and yourself as you can. All else fails, go to ground and don't move, don't make a sound."
is useful beginning knowledge for me. And I would listen closely to more detail suggestions or deeper discussion of how I can apply this. So even though is might sound self-explanatory to many of us and again trivial, it is not necessarily so to me, and many others like me.

Like what is meant by 'hardened' hiding places.... and/or 'how' or 'what are some suggestions' to implement 'go to ground' if I am in a theater, music event, parade, bus, other? I understand the don't move/make a sound, I am fuzzy on the fall down and play dead in the middle of a zombie attack to minimize notice of me when they are moving in and out of the area I am hiding in plain sight due to lack of available cover.

I get the 'avoid crowds', but there again I am being driven by the possibility of zombies which I wish to not do. So I will learn to avoid unnecessary crowds for sure, but the crowds that also add to my quality of life can be somehow analyzed for mitigation in face of a zombie attack.

I am urban. Moving away is not even an option. Learning more about how to better prepare within this environment is what I understood the thread is about, and what is important for me to learn. Right? Not how to never go to a shopping center, not ever go to the theater, not ever go..... but what I can teach myself to better notice nefarious possibilities and actors who may be trying to conceal their zombieness 'where' I am. Learn to condition myself to respond 'some way' I don't yet get the picture of that will better my chance of surviving a sudden public zombie attack were it to begin.


Last edited by zombiepreparation on Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:10 pm 
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Quote:
Now here's the thing, my interest in 'learning' some of this is going to feel trivial to lots of us who will read this thread. I get that. But it is NOT trivial to me and others new to having zombies in our own area now, who are intent on indiscriminately harming. So I implore those of us who might be inclined to brush these questions off with mocking humor to at least consider the newness of many of us now and who will migrate to ZS looking for tips.

Some of us have grown up in urban environments and have violent experiences and are used to evaluating crime daily/weekly, or even just occasionally.

There is a lot of crossovers to take away, being always aware. Running scenarios through your head so you act instead of freeze. This is a big one, see yourself doing something. When you look at the emergeny exit picture running through it. Remember where it is, put why you would be using it.

You don't want to be stuck behind the bad guys OODA loop.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:15 pm 
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OODA = observe, orient, decide, and act, right? But what do you mean by being stuck behind the bad guys' OODA loop?


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