Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack?

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

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Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack?

Post by jor-el » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:49 am

http://www.fpftraining.com/concealed-ca ... -part-one/
Get this straight in your head. Terrorists are not criminals out to support their drug habit, or a drunken bully looking to throw you a beat down. They are ideologically committed killers determined to use violence to achieve political change. Killing as many as they can in order to maximize the terror impact of their acts is their goal. Do NOT underestimate these people. Take careful note not of just the mass beheadings which are currently in vogue overseas, but the artful manner in which they are now staged and recorded, with high production values throughout. That is highly evolved messaging leveraging modern technology with ancient terror tactics. Remember that dying for their cause is considered a bonus. They won’t be dissuaded, and they won’t be bargained with. They will be heavily armed and adequately trained for their task, which is to slaughter unarmed innocents. Unlike your typical criminal crew, a few shots won’t send them into flight.

So, with that in mind, back shoot them without hesitation. The cheaper the shot, the better. As you pass their bodies, “anchor” shoot them, preferably through the brain and from a position of advantage, to ensure there’s not a threat behind you as you move on. While these methods of engagement are illegal and inappropriate for a criminal encounter and would likely see you charged with murder in that context, I suspect a citizen acting this way against a terrorist threat will be given a pass. (Differentiating between the two at that time could be difficult. Choose wisely…)

Prepare yourself for mass chaos and carnage. Look at pictures from terrorist attacks and watch video of the bombing of the Boston Marathon. Watch the HBO specials on the first two incidents I mentioned above. That will be the reality confronting you at that time. This brutality cannot shock you into inaction. Be prepared to step over bleeding children, screaming for help, and having to leave them in that condition, possibly to die, as you press ahead to stop the attack, or fight your way out. Consider that terrorists will deliberately strike at our most vulnerable points, such as schools, malls, hotels, air ports, or in a rural area with limited capacity to respond. They will employ ruse and deception, and they will be ruthless and cunning.

Finally, and most importantly, decide right now what your purpose is going to be. Are you going to intervene with the goal of thwarting the attack, or are you going to fight your way out of the hot zone and escape? The “Die Hard” series of movies featuring Bruce Willis as a hardcore cop gunning down dozens of terrorists with a Beretta and a spare magazine are entertaining, but the hard cold reality is that about the best you can hope for is to “die well” in that situation.
“Hard Skills” and Some Random Considerations

Can you shoot on the move? How about engage multiple targets while on the move in an environment where a miss means you hit an innocent? These are skills that are hard to attain and difficult to maintain on the square range with the resources most citizens have available to them, but would prove crucial in this sort of confrontation. (Imagine navigating through a panic stricken crowd with your pistol in hand…)

Can you operate an AK? That simple rifle is likely what the enemy will bring, and the ability to reload and HIT with it could be crucial if you execute a battlefield pick up. Do you know the difference between cover and concealment, and how rifles EXCEL at turning what you thought was cover into concealment? (Rifle bullets can penetrate a lot of material that would stop a pistol round, and still be lethal.) Can you apply a tourniquet, pack a wound or strap on a pressure dressing? Do you even have the stuff to perform these tasks in your car? A good first aid class and some kit might be a better investment than yet another shooting course.


What is your maximum effective range with your carry pistol? The ability to reliably hit a man-sized target at 50+ yards, from behind cover, would be a useful skill in being able to intervene from a distance. This is one area where I see the trend toward red dots sights (RDS) on pistols as offering a real advantage for most people. Still, at around $800 for a complete set up (not including the gun), plus the retraining, is the cost worth the capability? Maybe I’m just a slow adopter? The evidence is piling up before me, but I still question the utility of an expensive RDS on a daily carry, CCW sort of pistol.

Can you “pie a corner” in basic structure clearing? Move stealthily? Employ a flashlight? These also would highly useful skills that won’t magically just happen appear you need them.

And let’s talk about you for a minute. Can you run 200 yards nonstop in a time that doesn’t need a calendar to measure? If you can’t, maybe a gym membership and losing 20lbs or so would be a better investment of your time and money than another carbine course. (Are you seeing a theme here? ☺ Shooting is fun, but it is nowhere near the whole game.)
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by jor-el » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:02 am

Please not the quoted text is from the article, not my opinion.

For the next few months, I'll be looking at this problem from a LEO standpoint. As such, my training and doctrine are largely dictated for me, and will have to act with a degree of "fair play".
Eventually, I'll have to confront this problem as a straight civilian but with a lot more training under my belt, among other things.

So, has anyone honestly thought through and assessed their own abilities to deal with something like this? Not just for the trigger pullers; for those who are choosing or are unable/unwilling to arm themselves, if you're not going to confront or engage active shooters, are you able or willing to at least render aid to victims?

One consideration; if you have children with you or expect to, your A-1 priority is getting them out of the scenario. You can neither engage nor render aid with kids around.
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:11 am

Even if I had everything I could want: rifle, armor, combat load, the chances that I'd make a lick of difference in a Mumbai attack are slim to none. We're talking about a crowded, chaotic environment, me alone vs a team of trained shooters who have planned an attack. They know the layout, they have a plan, and they have made the first move and have violence of action on their side. I'd have better odds trying to defuse IEDs.

No, I'm not prepared for a Mumbai attack, nor will I be preparing for one. Best thing I can do is get other people out, and engage only if necessary. The threat of such an attack is lower than the threat of a bomb attack, historically and logistically.Even assuming I carried the best thing I could conceal, trained every day to deploy it, and wore concealable armor everywhere I'd still take out one or two shooters at best. I have no delusions about being a superhero, and no desire to spend time preparing to die ineffectively.
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Das Sheep » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:29 am

I am not. It would be silly to tr and engage multiable rifle armed shooters with a pistol. I would try and get me and my loved ones out of the area.

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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by jor-el » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:33 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Even if I had everything I could want: rifle, armor, combat load, the chances that I'd make a lick of difference in a Mumbai attack are slim to none. We're talking about a crowded, chaotic environment, me alone vs a team of trained shooters who have planned an attack. They know the layout, they have a plan, and they have made the first move and have violence of action on their side. I'd have better odds trying to defuse IEDs.

No, I'm not prepared for a Mumbai attack, nor will I be preparing for one. Best thing I can do is get other people out, and engage only if necessary. The threat of such an attack is lower than the threat of a bomb attack, historically and logistically.Even assuming I carried the best thing I could conceal, trained every day to deploy it, and wore concealable armor everywhere I'd still take out one or two shooters at best. I have no delusions about being a superhero, and no desire to spend time preparing to die ineffectively.
Wanna know something funny? I agree. Mostly.

Now most if not all places here in the city (And we are talking about New York City. The Tsarnaev Brothers planned to stop there next on their World Tour) that I'm likely to visit are places I've already visited while on the clock with an eye to defending them from just this sort of thing.
Of course, the only reason I would have to visit such places would be with family, so their safety and welfare come first. Once that issue is cleared up, I might consider intervening on the behalf of friends and co-workers still in the mix, being that I trained many of them and I would just hate to have to show up at their funerals.

Because friends lives matter.
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by jor-el » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:46 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: I'd have better odds trying to defuse IEDs.

No, I'm not prepared for a Mumbai attack, nor will I be preparing for one. Best thing I can do is get other people out, and engage only if necessary. The threat of such an attack is lower than the threat of a bomb attack, historically and logistically.Even assuming I carried the best thing I could conceal, trained every day to deploy it, and wore concealable armor everywhere I'd still take out one or two shooters at best. I have no delusions about being a superhero, and no desire to spend time preparing to die ineffectively.
You REALLY don't think one or more will happen?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1914363
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Rev » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:50 am

A Mumbai style attack requires a lot of coordination, a lot of chatter, etc. In a country like ours it is quite possible we'd pick it up.

My preparation for such an attack? Be armed, aware of the exits, and ready to move. Nothing else for me to do.
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:11 pm

jor-el wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote: I'd have better odds trying to defuse IEDs.

No, I'm not prepared for a Mumbai attack, nor will I be preparing for one. Best thing I can do is get other people out, and engage only if necessary. The threat of such an attack is lower than the threat of a bomb attack, historically and logistically.Even assuming I carried the best thing I could conceal, trained every day to deploy it, and wore concealable armor everywhere I'd still take out one or two shooters at best. I have no delusions about being a superhero, and no desire to spend time preparing to die ineffectively.
You REALLY don't think one or more will happen?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1914363
Nope. ISIS can threaten whatever they want on twitter, and it makes great scare-news, but there's a big ocean between us and them, and a lot of work to pull off a hard hit like that. I don't let sensationalist news trick me into jumping at every shadow. I have actual problems to deal with that are much more pressing than the twitter threats of the people who just started a fistfight with the entire Middle East.
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Boondock » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:02 pm

An interesting question. Definitely makes me consider exit strategies when I think I might be at a high-risk event or location.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the lone shit knuckle with an M-4 who decides to start a kill-crazy rampage at the local movie theater or my son's preschool.

Even more so, I'm concerned about the conceal-carry ass clown who pops off a negligent round in the grocery store parking lot.

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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Stercutus » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:21 pm

I'd say I am vastly better prepared than the police in Mumbai were. That said I don't see how anyone can be fully prepared for such an attack. There are way too many variables to provide an answer that makes any sense with such an open ended question. All I know is they won't be coming to my town. Because even though you should never say: "It can never happen here"; it actually won't ever happen here.

NYC? Oh yeah, now I can see it happening there quite easily. Pick just about any of the top 50 US cities by population in the US and they could all be on the list.



A bit of the advice in the article is either illegal, horrible or bad I can understand you wanting to disown it right away.
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by jor-el » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:36 pm

Stercutus wrote:I'd say I am vastly better prepared than the police in Mumbai were. That said I don't see how anyone can be fully prepared for such an attack. There are way too many variables to provide an answer that makes any sense with such an open ended question. All I know is they won't be coming to my town. Because even though you should never say: "It can never happen here"; it actually won't ever happen here.

NYC? Oh yeah, now I can see it happening there quite easily. Pick just about any of the top 50 US cities by population in the US and they could all be on the list.



A bit of the advice in the article is either illegal, horrible or bad I can understand you wanting to disown it right away.
Yeah, the part about backshooting and anchor shots kinda turned me off.

The first time they tried to drop the WTC, they did it in person with a Vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Device, or VBIED. Zazi 's support apparatus was in country and still here. Yeah, it could happen anywhere, but in my opinion and based on "stuff and thangs" its MUCH more likely to happen here in Gotham.
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by ManInBlack316 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:42 pm

Am I prepared for that kind of attack?
No idea, and I don't wish to find out. But I would say that if I don't get caught in the initial burst of firing, I might have a chance at getting out alive. I'm working extensively on my fitness, especially cardio and running. I carry concealed everyday, and carry at least one reload. I would say these two alone gives me a lot better than those citizens in Mumbai, I'm not gonna be delusional and say I'll take them all on by myself, but I'd say a Mumbai style attack in my area will play out differently.
A very good point about getting proficient with an AK, because IF I do manage to take one down it gives options. I'd also argue that possibilities like this are why a carry a blow out kit in my EDC bag.
Now, if you're a law abiding citizen in a city like Chicago or New York city, run like hell...

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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Kilo147 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:59 pm

Better than the average schmuck. Between a first aid and minor trauma kit i carry at all times, my small frame, and. You tendency to bob and weave, there's a definite chance of survival. At least 10%.

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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by zero11010 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:04 pm

Boondock wrote:An interesting question. Definitely makes me consider exit strategies when I think I might be at a high-risk event or location.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the lone shit knuckle with an M-4 who decides to start a kill-crazy rampage at the local movie theater or my son's preschool.

Even more so, I'm concerned about the conceal-carry ass clown who pops off a negligent round in the grocery store parking lot.

The man speaks truth!


Though, in the environments in my area, the worry is about which gang bangers are shooting at which other gang bangers. That situation arises every month of the year, and in many cases every week. There aren't many kill rampages in the whole country each year.






























This is real. This is what happens here in this country.

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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Kommander » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:27 pm

Great, another article extolling us to all be Jason Bourne. Unless you a cop your response to this is fairly simple, escape to the nearest exit (preferably a side/maintenance exit), using your firearm only if absolutely necessary. If one has the ability they might be able to "cover" the escape of others ala the SAS guys at the Kenyan mall shooting but that's about all you can ask of a private citizen. Anchoring shots? Battlefield pickup AKs? Those sound like good ways to get yourself killed by any law enforcement response, especially the bit about the AKs. In a situation like that the police will be shooting first and asking questions later.
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:32 pm

Kommander wrote:Great, another article extolling us to all be Jason Bourne. Unless you a cop your response to this is fairly simple, escape to the nearest exit (preferably a side/maintenance exit), using your firearm only if absolutely necessary. If one has the ability they might be able to "cover" the escape of others ala the SAS guys at the Kenyan mall shooting but that's about all you can ask of a private citizen. Anchoring shots? Battlefield pickup AKs? Those sound like good ways to get yourself killed by any law enforcement response, especially the bit about the AKs. In a situation like that the police will be shooting first and asking questions later.
You mean you and your wide don't have a plan to whip out your Special Weapons PDW while she assembles her precision rifle to give you cover?
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Stercutus » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:41 pm

Rightarrow-
While those attacks occur the criminals that commit them are focused on killing adversaries, competitors and occasionally people who insult or laugh at them. Everyone else is collateral damage that does not really concern them. Mumbai style terrorists want to kill EVERYONE. Actions and reactions to this are going to be different.
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Stercutus » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:45 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Kommander wrote:Great, another article extolling us to all be Jason Bourne. Unless you a cop your response to this is fairly simple, escape to the nearest exit (preferably a side/maintenance exit), using your firearm only if absolutely necessary. If one has the ability they might be able to "cover" the escape of others ala the SAS guys at the Kenyan mall shooting but that's about all you can ask of a private citizen. Anchoring shots? Battlefield pickup AKs? Those sound like good ways to get yourself killed by any law enforcement response, especially the bit about the AKs. In a situation like that the police will be shooting first and asking questions later.
You mean you and your wide don't have a plan to whip out your Special Weapons PDW while she assembles her precision rifle to give you cover?
Who has time to put together a sniper rifle? She is just going to have to do her best with what she has on board...

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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by raptor » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:29 pm

A Mumbai, Westgate Mall (Nairobi, Kenya) or Paris style attack can and/or will occur at places that by their nature are not likely be prepared to repel a determined attack by group of trained and heavily armed combatants. I suspect that if the groups responsible for these attacks showed up and there was an infantry assault group ready for trouble and guarding the place, they would go elsewhere.

Thus by the very nature of this "cowardly and dastardly" style of attack; if you are adequately prepared for such an attack, you are less likely to be on the receiving end of that type of attack. I am not saying you would then be immune to it just that it is less productive for groups such as this to attack hardened targets. Which is why they attack shopping centers and hotels.

Other violent incidents (and in NOLA we just had in the last 30 days a whacko with a machete in the airport and a drug dealer shooting it out with the JPSO in traffic, both of whom died of a sudden and acute onset of lead/copper poisoning) tend to be random though frequently in areas that are known for such violence.

So getting back to the OP's question. When I ask myself that question the first thought that comes to my mind is exactly how do you prepare for a sudden violent attack by overwhelming superior force? The short answer is that you really cannot be prepared unless you take extra-ordinary precautions. Short of this you can and should be prepared to react in the event of for instance the violence that I noted above and in the process you may be prepared to react (not deal with but react and thereby save your life and the life of your loved ones.)

There are some common sense precautions which are by no means preparations per se, they are good habits to have. I learned these at a mandatory K&R insurance training class in the 80's.

a) I always want to know where there are nearby exits. This is especially handy in case of a fire.

b) I try to avoid standing around gawking at the airport security line after I pass through it(where the whacko with a machette made his last stand in NOLA). I learned that at a K&R insurance training class in the 80's.

C) I always like to know who is around me at stop lights. Basic situation awareness is useful to prevent accidents.

d) If possible, I try not to box myself in at a stop light. The terminal energy of even a compact car at 20 MPH beats any handgun or rifle.

Does this make me prepared for such an attack? Absolutely not.... but these behaviors may be more useful than not in this and other situations.

Would I survive such an attack? Who knows? Depends on which luck fairy is sitting on my shoulder at the time.

No one has the ability to be on alert 24/7. No one should have to be on alert 24/7.

Still if the goal is to remain alive and get out a bad situation whether it is a fire, random violence or a determined attack by armed insurgents basic common sense and awareness of your surroundings can be useful.


Edited to add:

We need to avoid discussion of any illegal actions in this thread the article quoted mentioned a couple. However, no more will be accepted in this thread and discussion of those illegal actions will result in the thread being locked.

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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Paladin1 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:47 pm

I concur with many in this thread, you cannot really prepare for a Mumbai type of attack with multiple, rifle armed gunmen, who have planned it. I'm taking them down with my CC pistol? :lol:

But, I will say that I believe I'm prepared within reason. I use to carry a pocket pistol, but several tests at the range showed I really couldn't hit shit with it past 10yds.

So I switched to a G19. I have 16rds to get the hell out/defend myself. I figure the situ will be resolved before I run dry.

The concept of battlefield pickups and engaging multiple armed and trained attackers sounds a little too Gabe Suarez'ish to me. I am not a holy warrior for god crusader.

However, I do train and will defend me and mine, and given the right circumstances I would engage a threat to others. Seems the human being thing to do.
WWSD?

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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Kommander » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:00 pm

Paladin1 wrote:I concur with many in this thread, you cannot really prepare for a Mumbai type of attack with multiple, rifle armed gunmen, who have planned it. I'm taking them down with my CC pistol? :lol:
I would argue that you are already as prepared for such an attack as one could reasonably expect.
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Stercutus » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:04 pm

Paladin1 wrote: I am not a holy warrior for god crusader.
Sounds like a screen name change is in order..... :?
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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Paladin1 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:05 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Paladin1 wrote: I am not a holy warrior for god crusader.
Sounds like a screen name change is in order..... :?
You have a point, but there's nothing implied by my screen name. I had a chance to ride in a Paladin M109A6 and was impressed.

In addition, my favorite D&D character I played as a kid was a Paladin.

So, there you go. Mystery solved.
WWSD?

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Re: Ask Yourself; Are You Prepared for a Mumbai Style Attack

Post by Wraith6761 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:49 am

Am I prepared for a Mumbai-style attack? Depends...is this before or after I've been uploaded into a cybernetic body, a la Robocop? If it's 'after' sure, I'll take a crack at it. If it's the much more likely 'before' option...hell no. It's not realistically possible for a single person to be prepared, at all times (or really at any time), to engage and defeat a well-coordinated team of combatants who have a plan, superior firepower, an utter conviction to die for the cause, and the combined advantages of surprise and violence of action.

Knowing where your exits are (both standard and "improvised" --i.e., window that's large enough to get through and can be opened somehow), carrying a concealed weapon (where legal) and being proficient with it (something that's sadly overlooked by many), and general situational awareness are the best preps you can have for any kind of likely situation of this kind. Personally, I'm more worried about the goofy bastard who heard God talking to him through a potato and decided to shoot up a store than I am about an organized attack like the Mumbai one...or somebody like this crazy bastard finding out that "Stevie" ain't real: http://cityworldnews.com/arrested-selli ... ts-heaven/
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