The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Topics in this category pertain to planning. Discussions include how to prepare yourself, your family and your community for catastrophes and what you plan to do when they hit you.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by boskone » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:23 pm

PistolPete wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:53 pm
woodsghost wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:25 pm
What we have learned especially from civil wars of the last 30 years is elites (successful ones, anyway) have learned to lever people into in-groups and out-groups and force the "neutral" to get off the fence and join a side (for sheer survival). Actually, elites have managed that for a while. Chairman Mao had a lot to say about it. In recent years the techniques have got more sophisticated, but not less bloody.
We've also seen that once it's started, it only takes 3 - 5 percent of the population to maintain an active civil war. In the US it would be super interesting as well if it gets to that point. Remember how many times we've armed "moderate rebels" in other countries? I bet people in those countries are just itching to start funneling real weapons into the US if they knew they'd help support an insurgency. Take the looting we saw in Minn and add in some crates of RPG's and you've got a much more interesting situation on your hands. Tell me that Russia or China wouldn't jump at the chance to ship over some more effective hardware and really get things going.
Honestly, I think they wouldn't, out of sheer economic pragmatism.

If the US collapses into a civil war (hot civil war, whatever), the world markets go with it. Right now, neither China nor Russia could take that. However, both benefit from an "upset" United States. They need us, in a sense, in the back seat having a slap fight amongst ourselves rather than behind the wheel.

So I think they'll stir the pot, but I don't think we'd see massive amounts of small arms or any heavier ordnance.

Yet. If the US stops holding the reserve currency, either they'll lose interest or try and tank us altogether. I'd say logically the former, but they could always consider reducing the chance of a resurgent US worth further investment. I think supplying arms to US insurgent groups would probably backfire on the international stage, but countries have made bigger mistakes.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:36 pm

:ohdear: x ∞

ETA this:
boskone wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:23 pm
Honestly, I think they wouldn't, out of sheer economic pragmatism.

If the US collapses into a civil war (hot civil war, whatever), the world markets go with it. Right now, neither China nor Russia could take that. However, both benefit from an "upset" United States. They need us, in a sense, in the back seat having a slap fight amongst ourselves rather than behind the wheel.

So I think they'll stir the pot, but I don't think we'd see massive amounts of small arms or any heavier ordnance.

Yet. If the US stops holding the reserve currency, either they'll lose interest or try and tank us altogether. I'd say logically the former, but they could always consider reducing the chance of a resurgent US worth further investment. I think supplying arms to US insurgent groups would probably backfire on the international stage, but countries have made bigger mistakes.
I agree. A State or Non-State Actor(s) (NSA :rofl: ) would suffer greatly if they were found to be shipping arms into the US.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by CrossCut » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:49 pm

Looks like the McCloskey's largely abandoned the Rawlesian tenets of Beans, Bullets, and Band-Aids, and went full on Zevon mode instead:

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Lawyers, Guns, and Money :)

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:35 pm

CrossCut wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:49 pm
Looks like the McCloskey's largely abandoned the Rawlesian tenets of Beans, Bullets, and Band-Aids, and went full on Zevon mode instead:

Image

Lawyers, Guns, and Money :)
Interesting times are a trip!

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:15 am

boskone wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:23 pm
PistolPete wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:53 pm
woodsghost wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:25 pm
What we have learned especially from civil wars of the last 30 years is elites (successful ones, anyway) have learned to lever people into in-groups and out-groups and force the "neutral" to get off the fence and join a side (for sheer survival). Actually, elites have managed that for a while. Chairman Mao had a lot to say about it. In recent years the techniques have got more sophisticated, but not less bloody.
We've also seen that once it's started, it only takes 3 - 5 percent of the population to maintain an active civil war. In the US it would be super interesting as well if it gets to that point. Remember how many times we've armed "moderate rebels" in other countries? I bet people in those countries are just itching to start funneling real weapons into the US if they knew they'd help support an insurgency. Take the looting we saw in Minn and add in some crates of RPG's and you've got a much more interesting situation on your hands. Tell me that Russia or China wouldn't jump at the chance to ship over some more effective hardware and really get things going.
Honestly, I think they wouldn't, out of sheer economic pragmatism.

If the US collapses into a civil war (hot civil war, whatever), the world markets go with it. Right now, neither China nor Russia could take that. However, both benefit from an "upset" United States. They need us, in a sense, in the back seat having a slap fight amongst ourselves rather than behind the wheel.

So I think they'll stir the pot, but I don't think we'd see massive amounts of small arms or any heavier ordnance.

Yet. If the US stops holding the reserve currency, either they'll lose interest or try and tank us altogether. I'd say logically the former, but they could always consider reducing the chance of a resurgent US worth further investment. I think supplying arms to US insurgent groups would probably backfire on the international stage, but countries have made bigger mistakes.
The US populace is quite well armed enough without anyone trying to funnel arms in. The one upmanship and outrage churning over social media is far more damgerous than an outside power shipping in weapons. An outside power can do more damage with internet trolls than any amount of weaponry. Cause we already have plenty of weaponry. Luckily we all still like living in a 1st world nation and are not yet ready to knock ourselves back to 3rd world status.

A growing concern I have is how many people truly have no understanding of violence or how fragile our distribution systems can be. I am becoming more cognizant of how many people have no idea how dangerous a thrown brick is. They don't understand a gun doesn't automatically make you a winner over someone mere feet away with a knife. Nor do they understand how impossible it is to monitor a dozen angry screaming people spread out around you, and that having a gun in your holster doesn't offer much protection in that scenario.

I have had otherwise intelligent people argue we don't have to worry if we miss one years harvest cause we have so much canned food in warehouses. The last panic run is brushed off as just needing to sort out the trucking. So we can keep everyone in quarantine during the pandemic without concern.

Think for a while on that mindset being prevalent in a very angry worked up mob. Their demands are unreasonable, they have no concept what the violence they are calling for is truly like, and they think the other side is inherently evil.

I'm not sure how to get people to understand throwing rocks and bottles is potentially deadly, combat isn't anything like the movies, and starving is a very real risk if we don't start getting along a little better.

When I'm a little less tired I'll post up a video on how effective messing with a populace via social media can be. It's far more dangerous than traditional media stirring up crap.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by M813 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 am

@PistolPete

I am aware that the mayor "doxxed" several people. I fail to see how that is relevant to homeowners protecting themselves from 500 protestors, some armed, who were trespassing on private property. The issue is between the protesters and the city government. Private citizens are not an acceptable "collateral damage" while on the way to City Hall.

The information I have, is that the roads were private and not maintained by the city, county or state. It seems doubtful that the city or county would allow this enclave to put up wrought-iron gates, blocking off a public road...but I suppose it's possible.

I do take issue with the manner in which the husband and wife brandished their weapons and I have major issues with the wife's lack of control. In the photos I saw, the husband and wife are barefoot, indicating that this protest group moved in on them quite quickly and caught them unprepared.

Let's sum this up: After watching weeks of rioters loot and torch stores and residences, tear down statues and occupy police precincts, any *reasonable* homeowner might be greatly concerned or even fearful of a parade of protesters, some of whom were armed, breaking down a gate and parading through their neighborhood. Such homeowners might grab their weapons and make ready to defend themselves.

BLM representatives and rioters have been repeatedly broadcast shouting "Eat the Rich" on national TV. A guillotine has been placed outside Jeff Bozos' home in Washington DC. This couple was a pair of white attorneys living in a well-to-do neighborhood. They sound like an ideal "appetizer" on the way to oust the mayor from her office. I would have been afraid, too.

The protestors may have a legitimate beef with the mayor for doxxing people, and they are within their rights to protest outside City Hall. That is TOTALLY unrelated to bashing down gates, parading through neighborhoods, brandishing firearms and threatening people while enroute to the mayor's office. You need to separate these two issues.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by PistolPete » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:37 am

M813 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 am
@PistolPete

I am aware that the mayor "doxxed" several people. I fail to see how that is relevant to homeowners protecting themselves from 500 protestors, some armed, who were trespassing on private property. The issue is between the protesters and the city government. Private citizens are not an acceptable "collateral damage" while on the way to City Hall.

The information I have, is that the roads were private and not maintained by the city, county or state. It seems doubtful that the city or county would allow this enclave to put up wrought-iron gates, blocking off a public road...but I suppose it's possible.
In St Louis city there are tons of publicly maintained streets that have gates up. There are also even more public streets that have one end blocked off with big ass concrete balls, called "Schoemehl Balls" after the mayor in power when they were installed. There are videos of city plows running on those streets, as well as city trash service (which is paid for by taxes), city water (paid for by taxes, not directly billed). Whether those city services are applied to that neighborhood because people are connected (like the current mayor) or because those streets are actually city streets and not purchased and installed by the homeowners is a matter for debate.

But in St Louis city and county there are lots of "Private Drive" signs put up on public roads. It may not be legal, but there isn't a government official running around putting them down. As I understand the history a lot of the gates went up during the 70's to stop crime, making it so rather than a typical city grid, certain fancy streets had only one way in and out. All that had to be done was start a neighborhood association and apply for a permit and the city would allow them to be put up. These gates exist in a number of neighborhoods adjacent to restaurant districts as well as a way to discourage people from parking on a street with mansions on it when they visit the local eatery. There's a lot of history in St Louis regarding blocking off streets and sidewalks on streets with expensive homes from undesirables.

It also seems the sidewalk gate was damaged as people were leaving, not coming in. The armed couple stated otherwise, which hurts their credibility. As well, they say they and their dog was threatened, of which their doesn't seem to be video evidence. Was it reasonable for them to be concerned? Certainly! Did the show of force create more issues for them than staying in their home and waiting to respond with force to a possible attack? Also yes.

Protesters have taken that same path a half dozen times I'm aware of in the last few years, and there have never been any tickets or summons issued for trespass. Does that make it legal? Of course not. But the city set the standard that if that action is legally trespassing, they aren't enforcing it, like the parks with the signs to stay off the grass where no one is ever given a ticket. I'm not saying that walking on the grass in a park is the same as walking in the grass in someone's yard, only that the city has set the precedent of not treating either action as illegal.

What the city has done in this instance is charge the homeowners. If the homeowners had chosen a more tactically advantageous position, such as staying inside by a window or taking a position on a balcony, they would have avoided by the press attention and the demonstrator attention. The last 6 times a protest happened in front of the mayors house they walked right by this home and all evidence shows that was happening again until the homeowners chose to escalate.

And I think that is the lesson here. Does the couple have the right to protect their property with firearms? Hell yes! Do we all have that same right? Hell yes! How we choose to do so should be pondered and strategically chosen to best minimize risk and keep our lives and property safe. I think we can learn from their actions in this instance to help us all guide our actions should we be caught in something similar. I strongly recommend the book Trail Safe by Michael Bane, it speaks really well to making choices to keep safe in threatening situations and big part of that is setting ego aside. That said, if you are attacked be prepared to respond with as much force as you can muster.

I think these home owners felt attacked, but weren't attacked in any legal sense. When they chose to display arms, point them at people and follow those people off their property they became the aggressor in that moment. It was no longer a defensive use of firearms, according to my understanding of Missouri law as a ccw instructor.

Other perspectives may differ of course! My thoughts on the subject come from my knowledge and experience of St Louis police and politics and my legal understanding as a certified firearms instructor. In other states a strikingly similar event could have very different optics and legal questions surrounding it. Part of being prepared is knowing your laws. If you get arrested for something like this then you lose the ability to protect your loved ones if the situation gets even worse in following days.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by MPMalloy » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:19 pm

Some site I came across today: The Political Terror Scale


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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm

M813 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 am

The information I have, is that the roads were private and not maintained by the city, county or state. It seems doubtful that the city or county would allow this enclave to put up wrought-iron gates, blocking off a public road...but I suppose it's possible.
I have seen conflicting information on this. I think it's safe to say many neighborhoods in that region have gates and signs up on public streets as part of traffic management and security measures. Therefore the protesters should have had very reasonable cause to believe they were on a viable thoroughfare whether that specific street was private or public.

From a prepping viewpoint, this was a wonderful example of how not to act during times of civil unrest. Don't run out of your house into the open waving a gun around with poor trigger control at people passing by. In my corner of the world, those homeowners would be criminally liable for any violence that ensued due to how they escalated the issue, even if it was a private road. They're very lucky that crowd was peaceful protesters and not true rioters. If this was an instance of even greater hostilities, those homeowners would likely be dead and their home looted or burned. They immediately advertised themselves as hostiles and exposed themselves to violence. Holding a gun does not make you invincible.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by NT2C » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 pm

RoneKiln wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm
M813 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 am

The information I have, is that the roads were private and not maintained by the city, county or state. It seems doubtful that the city or county would allow this enclave to put up wrought-iron gates, blocking off a public road...but I suppose it's possible.
I have seen conflicting information on this. I think it's safe to say many neighborhoods in that region have gates and signs up on public streets as part of traffic management and security measures. Therefore the protesters should have had very reasonable cause to believe they were on a viable thoroughfare whether that specific street was private or public.
Okay, I'm not getting how having to pass through a gate "as part of traffic management and security measures" would imply that this was anything but restricted access and that entry by such a group was trespassing. The legalities of the actual status of the road can (and is) be argued in court later but at that moment the crowd only knew that it was not intended to be a general thorofare. Maybe I'm missing something. Image
RoneKiln wrote: From a prepping viewpoint, this was a wonderful example of how not to act during times of civil unrest. Don't run out of your house into the open waving a gun around with poor trigger control at people passing by. In my corner of the world, those homeowners would be criminally liable for any violence that ensued due to how they escalated the issue, even if it was a private road. They're very lucky that crowd was peaceful protesters and not true rioters. If this was an instance of even greater hostilities, those homeowners would likely be dead and their home looted or burned. They immediately advertised themselves as hostiles and exposed themselves to violence. Holding a gun does not make you invincible.
From a prepping standpoint, this will forever be held up as an example of how to do it all very, very wrong. At the very least I would expect to see brandishing charges happen in the near future for that duo, though they are no doubt well connected politically. This has become too high profile for it to be ignored and had I been one of those protesters I think I'd have been inclined to make a criminal complaint about their actions, so I'm fairly certain someone in the crowd will.

Bottom line takeaway from all this?

It's best if you don't live near any political figure or celebrity because one day you might find yourself sitting on the edge of "ground zero" of a mob's attention. If you do find yourself sitting there, don't make yourself a secondary target. Let "sit down, shut up, enjoy the ride" be your watchwords until or unless you or someone else is in imminent danger of death or serious injury, at which point you're "weapons free" and see you in Valhalla.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by woodsghost » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:56 pm

NT2C wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 pm

Bottom line takeaway from all this?

It's best if you don't live near any political figure or celebrity because one day you might find yourself sitting on the edge of "ground zero" of a mob's attention. If you do find yourself sitting there, don't make yourself a secondary target. Let "sit down, shut up, enjoy the ride" be your watchwords until or unless you or someone else is in imminent danger of death or serious injury, at which point you're "weapons free" and see you in Valhalla.
3 months ago I think I would have agreed with this. Now? I think if you are in an urban area, any place can become "political demonstration grounds." There is no place safe. I realize that now, as I've experienced my minor (comparatively) riots, and looked at all the ground which has been demonstrated on over the last 20 years. Poor areas, residential areas, business areas, rich areas, gated areas, government "controlled" areas, "minority" areas "non-minority" areas. So far the only safe places are "rural areas" and "military bases."

Just FYI, I expect parts of the US will shift to a South African model of de-funded public police and a robust private security sector which guards the rich and culls the cream of the Public Police crop with better pay, better benefits, and better working conditions. Just my personal opinion, but I feel I already see this in Los Angeles, and from what I've seen, it has existed for 20+ years. Except I think the Los Angeles public police have been very good up to this point. But I expect to see a change if/when de-funding happens. I expect that will need to be factored into prepping plans.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by NT2C » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:30 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:56 pm
NT2C wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 pm

Bottom line takeaway from all this?

It's best if you don't live near any political figure or celebrity because one day you might find yourself sitting on the edge of "ground zero" of a mob's attention. If you do find yourself sitting there, don't make yourself a secondary target. Let "sit down, shut up, enjoy the ride" be your watchwords until or unless you or someone else is in imminent danger of death or serious injury, at which point you're "weapons free" and see you in Valhalla.
3 months ago I think I would have agreed with this. Now? I think if you are in an urban area, any place can become "political demonstration grounds." There is no place safe. I realize that now, as I've experienced my minor (comparatively) riots, and looked at all the ground which has been demonstrated on over the last 20 years. Poor areas, residential areas, business areas, rich areas, gated areas, government "controlled" areas, "minority" areas "non-minority" areas. So far the only safe places are "rural areas" and "military bases."

Just FYI, I expect parts of the US will shift to a South African model of de-funded public police and a robust private security sector which guards the rich and culls the cream of the Public Police crop with better pay, better benefits, and better working conditions. Just my personal opinion, but I feel I already see this in Los Angeles, and from what I've seen, it has existed for 20+ years. Except I think the Los Angeles public police have been very good up to this point. But I expect to see a change if/when de-funding happens. I expect that will need to be factored into prepping plans.
My takeaway was in that particular kind of instance, where proximity to the home of a public figure puts you close to the target they are the center of. It's not intended to be an all-encompassing takeaway.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:41 pm

NT2C wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 pm
Okay, I'm not getting how having to pass through a gate "as part of traffic management and security measures" would imply that this was anything but restricted access and that entry by such a group was trespassing. The legalities of the actual status of the road can (and is) be argued in court later but at that moment the crowd only knew that it was not intended to be a general thorofare. Maybe I'm missing something.
In my area, a gate is a very clear indicator of private property even if it is wide open. In many neighborhoods I've stayed in Europe, it's common for public thoroughfares to have gates left over from previous eras. Sometimes those gates are closed in the evening not to keep people out, but to serve as a reminder that you're entering an area of residences and to keep your voice quiet (these are not car friendly neighborhoods). My European friends are always amused at my discomfort walking through those closed gates in the evening.

I've been reading there are many neighborhoods in St Louis that have gates on public thoroughfares left over from past decades. I've spent very little time in St Louis and I don't recall seeing this myself when I was there. I'm assuming the articles claiming this is common there can be trusted on that point even if they do have a strong bias. I also respect Pistol Pete, who sounds like he speaks from first hand experience with the area. The whole idea is a little strange to me, but it's easy to believe as I have seen it in other countries.

Anyone else here from St Louis that can verify how common these public neighborhoods with gates are?

I've also read research on reducing crime in rundown neighborhoods by cleaning up the alleys, taking down backyard fences along the alley, and putting up decorative arches at the alley entrances. Even without a gate in that arch, it does send a powerful psychological message about the space, which significantly reduces loitering (and reduces young bored men from hanging around with nothing to do). This increases my willingness to believe the claim that neighborhood associations used to put up gates across public roads. It doesn't need any legal weight to still carry powerful psychological weight.

So another possible prep issue from this is if you're living in a dense urban area, see what options your city might allow for clearly delineating access to your neighborhood. Just cause it won't stop anyone truly intent on getting in doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Also, don't assume clear delineation of your neighborhood gives you license to act aggressively with those peacefully passing through.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:49 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:56 pm

Just FYI, I expect parts of the US will shift to a South African model of de-funded public police and a robust private security sector which guards the rich and culls the cream of the Public Police crop with better pay, better benefits, and better working conditions. Just my personal opinion, but I feel I already see this in Los Angeles, and from what I've seen, it has existed for 20+ years. Except I think the Los Angeles public police have been very good up to this point. But I expect to see a change if/when de-funding happens. I expect that will need to be factored into prepping plans.
I really wish I could disagree, but I think there will definitely be parts of the country this starts to accelerate. This also will raise questions of accountability, oversight, and liability for those organizations same as with LEOs. I'm betting the potential for violence erupting between a large private security force and protesters will also be a huge concern.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by woodsghost » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:23 am

RoneKiln wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:49 pm
woodsghost wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:56 pm

Just FYI, I expect parts of the US will shift to a South African model of de-funded public police and a robust private security sector which guards the rich and culls the cream of the Public Police crop with better pay, better benefits, and better working conditions. Just my personal opinion, but I feel I already see this in Los Angeles, and from what I've seen, it has existed for 20+ years. Except I think the Los Angeles public police have been very good up to this point. But I expect to see a change if/when de-funding happens. I expect that will need to be factored into prepping plans.
I really wish I could disagree, but I think there will definitely be parts of the country this starts to accelerate. This also will raise questions of accountability, oversight, and liability for those organizations same as with LEOs. I'm betting the potential for violence erupting between a large private security force and protesters will also be a huge concern.
I think in SA it has been accepted because the rich are also the well connected, politically. And if the private security only protected white South Africans, there would be a problem. But they protect black South Africans with equal vigour. And no one wants to live with shit security. We already see private security in America for the rich get away with all sorts of stuff. The rich can live in a different world. They don't have to live with the effects of de-funding. That is part of their prep plan. They throw money at problem solvers.

And that is just rich private individuals. Public servants can use tax money to hire private security too. And there seems to be an upswing of that in recent weeks. The rules are simply not applied equally. And when government servants have to hire security, they make sure the laws allow them to feel fully protected.

Well connected people can also get guns and concealed carry permits where ordinary people cannot. This is not unique to America. It is true all over the world.

So how does this relate to prepping? I expect elites to further push for laws they have no intention to live under or experience the consequences of. We are already seeing that happen. So I think we need to plan to be on our own in environments which make personal security more difficult to achieve. Or we need to change our environments. I don't know what that would look like to different Preppers. I think I know what it looks like for me and my family.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by M813 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:02 am

@PistolPete That's a very interesting history on roads and gates of that specific area. I will certainly use that information to revise my view of the incident.

I fully agree with everyone that the manner in which these two brandished their firearms wasn't smart and was counter to most preppers' views on how to defend the homestead. I know that I would not have done it that way.

As I told my wife when I showed her the incident- "The good thing about our neighborhood, is that it's not 'on the way' to anywhere." We're on the end of a peninsula, at the end of a street. If a crowd is here, it's because they are up to no good. My back may be up against the water, but it also means that I know which direction the crowds are coming from.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by PistolPete » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:34 am

RoneKiln wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:41 pm
Anyone else here from St Louis that can verify how common these public neighborhoods with gates are?
There are literally hundreds of gates like this in St Louis city. Nearly every street in the Central West End has multiple gates. A whole section of Tower Grove East has gates. The Grove is covered with Schoemehl Balls. The Loop has dozens of gates on streets. Shaw has lots of gates. Several north side neighborhoods still have gates. None of these names mean anything to folks outside of St Louis I'm sure, but gates are staggeringly common.

Primarily these exist as a demarcation line between a commercial area, main road or restaurant district. People who are well enough funded or well enough connected put up gates to keep people from parking in their neighborhoods when they visited the local park, eatery or attraction. They block the entrance to the neighborhood from the main road, so you have to weave around into the neighborhood to get that open parking space by the flower shop or whatever is on that main road. For long time residents, parking on just the other side of the gates to get a close spot to a venue is super common.

[edit] Although you were looking for anyone else in STL, lol. I didn't need to post again. None of the St Louis ZS crowd I know of is active on the forums, but if you want another perspective on it, I'm sure any of the 001 crowd would respond to a PM. If they still get notifications. I saw Kyle on a couple weeks ago, he may still visit from time to time.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by raptor2 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:39 am

I am not an expert on MO law (or LA law for that matter). However many states have laws dealing with curtilage around property and dwellings.These laws tie into castle laws and trespassing laws. You should review your local and state laws dealing with this doctrine. In this case the homeowners are claiming defense of the curtilage against trespassing on their property.

In LA, TX and MS you have a right to defend your property against trespassers which can under a set of circumstance includes the use or threatened use of lethal force. That does not give you the right to shoot trespassers on sight and I a certainly NOT saying confront trespassers armed and/or brandishing lethal weapons.

However one of the key elements in LA & MS for a claim of lawful action against a trespasser on the property (vs. inside a home) is how obvious the property boundary is and how close does the curtilage extend to home. In these states the generally recognized definition of the curtilage is the area contained within a fence around the home. There are exceptions for agricultural uses but in suburbia if you home is fenced in completely with a gate there is a presumption of curtilage beyond the gate. Further exceptions involve the "mailbox rule". If the mailperson/UPS driver/etc has to enter the gate to deliver mail to the mail box then the curtilage is reduce to that point. Thus if you have no fence (or an open decorative fence w/o a gate) you have a different legal position regarding trespassing should someone decide to walk across your lawn with or w/o a sign than person whose yard is fenced all around with a gate.

It may be a good time to review your home and it's physical security as well as make sure you are correctly advised as to the legalities of home defense in your area. Remember the laws will applied to homeowners vigorously ... the "protesters" will see to that.

IMO the best defense for those who live near such negative activity a good fence, CCTV system and video camera will provide you with a better defense against such activity than brandish a weapon at least based upon current hostile actions by the current players. YMMV
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by MPMalloy » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:57 am

This happened two days ago. I didn't know where else to put it.

From The Des Moines Register: Governor's vehicle struck Black Lives Matter protester who blocked the road

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by raptor2 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:20 am

MPMalloy wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:57 am
This happened two days ago. I didn't know where else to put it.

From The Des Moines Register: Governor's vehicle struck Black Lives Matter protester who blocked the road
In many states drivers are granted a limited level of immunity should they run into a protester on a road way. In LA there is a blanket immunity from civil or criminal liability if a person exercising reasonable care injures or kills a protester on any Interstate, elevated expressway or bridge.

I am not saying that is the case here but it may very well apply here.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/legis ... index.html
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by boskone » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:29 am

raptor2 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:20 am
MPMalloy wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:57 am
This happened two days ago. I didn't know where else to put it.

From The Des Moines Register: Governor's vehicle struck Black Lives Matter protester who blocked the road
In many states drivers are granted a limited level of immunity should they run into a protester on a road way. In LA there is a blanket immunity from civil or criminal liability if a person exercising reasonable care injures or kills a protester on any Interstate, elevated expressway or bridge.

I am not saying that is the case here but it may very well apply here.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/legis ... index.html
Make sense. I remember seeing some protest (LA, I think?) where they ran out into the middle of a busy highway, and some got hit.

Regardless of a driver's intentions, the laws of physics (Newton's first law, here) don't care about the laws of man, and a vehicle travelling several dozen miles an hour is going to take a good bit of space to stop even under ideal circumstances.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by raptor2 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:40 am

boskone wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:29 am
Make sense. I remember seeing some protest (LA, I think?) where they ran out into the middle of a busy highway, and some got hit.

Regardless of a driver's intentions, the laws of physics (Newton's first law, here) don't care about the laws of man, and a vehicle travelling several dozen miles an hour is going to take a good bit of space to stop even under ideal circumstances.
Agreed... It is crazy enough when a vehicle breaks down while driving on limited access roads (or in Louisiana one of many bridges) at over 50 mph. Wth limited sightlines when someone decides to stop traffic even if you stop in time the person behind you may not stop or they may swerve into other cars.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by RoneKiln » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:40 pm

raptor2 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:40 am
boskone wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:29 am
Make sense. I remember seeing some protest (LA, I think?) where they ran out into the middle of a busy highway, and some got hit.

Regardless of a driver's intentions, the laws of physics (Newton's first law, here) don't care about the laws of man, and a vehicle travelling several dozen miles an hour is going to take a good bit of space to stop even under ideal circumstances.
Agreed... It is crazy enough when a vehicle breaks down while driving on limited access roads (or in Louisiana one of many bridges) at over 50 mph. Wth limited sightlines when someone decides to stop traffic even if you stop in time the person behind you may not stop or they may swerve into other cars.
About 25 years ago a buddy of mine accidently hit a guy that shouldn't have been walking in the road. Not only was my buddy not held liable, but the guy that was wrongly walking in the road was held liable and paid the the damage to the car.

Imagine not only being hit by a car and moderately maimed for your stupidity, but also having to pay for the damage done to the car by your body.

That reassures me that if I do my best to avoid hitting someone that is illegally in the street but do accidently hit them, I've got a real good chance of not being held liable in my area.
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