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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:24 pm 
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mantis wrote:
It wasn't just an MP who said it - it was Public Safety Minister Vic Toews - the man who wrote the legislation.


Doesn't matter if it was the PM that said it. If its not in the legislation its not the law.

Please post up the text from the new law that allows warning shots.

Shawn

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:42 pm 
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shawn wrote:
mantis wrote:
It wasn't just an MP who said it - it was Public Safety Minister Vic Toews - the man who wrote the legislation.


Doesn't matter if it was the PM that said it. If its not in the legislation its not the law.

Please post up the text from the new law that allows warning shots.

Shawn


Have they even released the text of the new law as of yet?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:33 pm 
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mantis wrote:
shawn wrote:
mantis wrote:
It wasn't just an MP who said it - it was Public Safety Minister Vic Toews - the man who wrote the legislation.


Doesn't matter if it was the PM that said it. If its not in the legislation its not the law.

Please post up the text from the new law that allows warning shots.

Shawn


Have they even released the text of the new law as of yet?


Yes give me a min and I will get a link.

Shawn

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:55 pm 
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Took a bit, I forgot the bill number. Here is the text of the new law.

http://parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Pub ... 359&file=4

It has received royal assent, but is not yet in force. I don't know when the coming into force date is, but the Criminal Code has not yet been changed.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Do let me scare you guys away, I know I can sound confrontational. :clownshoes:

Now the time to ask some questions and get some good info out to you guys. I use these laws as part of my job, ask away and I will do my best.

Shawn

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:01 pm 
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with the Colorado shootout , i think it would be more than appropriate than ever to talk about that even though this incident will make the situation going the other way. since we are living in a world of infant who can't be trusted to carry firearm but we can be trusted to elect people to not let us carry firearm.

we aren't even allowed to carry pepper spray or taser. the law forbid us to use any tools again those who don't care about the law or our safety. we need to fight for our right to protect ourselves.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:23 am 
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azrael99 wrote:
we aren't even allowed to carry pepper spray or taser. the law forbid us to use any tools again those who don't care about the law or our safety. we need to fight for our right to protect ourselves.


You are right pepper spray and tazers are prohibited.

But the rest of your post is completely wrong. Please post up the law that says we can not use tools to defend ourselves. I have posted the relevant sections of the CC above, show me where it says I cant. In fact in says I can use anything and everything if it is justified, reasonable and proportionate.

The truth of the matter is that people all across this country use tools, up to and including firearms, to defend themselves every day. And in 99.999999% of the cases charges against the defender are not even considered, let alone followed through on.

Do you even know the laws in Canada about use of force? Have you read the above posted sections? My bet is you have not. I will never get why people don't look this stuff up, especially with the internet when it is all just a google search away.

You are also right that we need to fight for our rights. But you need to know what your current rights are before you can fight. Don't get you info from the news or TV, get it from the horses mouth, go to the justice website. All laws are there for you to explore and learn, go to stats Canada and learn what the stats actually are for what people get charged with. Go to the RCMP website and look up what they arrest people for and how many actually get charged or released.

All this info is there for the taking, stop relying on the media to tell you what reality is. Find it out for your self, you will be surprised.

Just like I bet most did not know that Canada has a higher violent crime rate per 100,000 than the US.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:53 am 
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shawn wrote:
azrael99 wrote:
we aren't even allowed to carry pepper spray or taser. the law forbid us to use any tools again those who don't care about the law or our safety. we need to fight for our right to protect ourselves.

You are right pepper spray and tazers are prohibited. Do you even know the laws in Canada about use of force?


yes i know but the law is quite vague about what we CAN use and are quite clear about what we CAN'T use.

Quote:
34. (1) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself


this is quite vague on what you can use. but they quite clear on what you CAN'T use

Quote:
The following weapons are prohibited from entering Canada:

automatic knives such as switchblades;
centrifugal knives such as flick knives or butterfly knives;
gravity knives;
mace or pepper spray designed for use on humans;
nunchaku sticks;
shuriken (throwing stars);
manrikigusari or kusari (fighting chains);
finger rings with blades or other sharp objects projecting from the surface;
Taser and stun guns shorter than 480 mm;
crossbows designed for one-handed use;
crossbows 500 mm or shorter;
Constant Companion (belt-buckle knife);
push daggers;
devices shorter than 30 cm concealing a knife blade (e.g. knife-comb);
spiked wristbands;
blowguns;
Kiyoga or Steel Cobra batons (spring batons);
spring-loaded rigid batons (triggered by a button or lever);
morning stars; and
brass knuckles.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:14 pm 
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azrael99 wrote:
yes i know but the law is quite vague about what we CAN use and are quite clear about what we CAN'T use.


Laws do not enumerate what is legal, they list what things and actions are illegal. If it is not specifically stated as illegal it is legal. The laws I posted are purposely vague as to the specific tools used in self defense, because they intended to not limit you in what you can use.

azrael99 wrote:
Quote:
34. (1) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself


this is quite vague on what you can use.


That is because it is not intended as a list of items you can use to defend your self, it is the limits of force you can use to defend your self. Which is to say for the above section not deadly force and not more than is necessary to stop the attack. To accomplish that the above section states you can do what ever is necessary and use what ever is necessary.

Remember laws are not a list of what is legal, they are a list of things that are illegal.

azrael99 wrote:
but they quite clear on what you CAN'T use

Quote:
The following weapons are prohibited from entering Canada:

automatic knives such as switchblades;
centrifugal knives such as flick knives or butterfly knives;
gravity knives;
mace or pepper spray designed for use on humans;
nunchaku sticks;
shuriken (throwing stars);
manrikigusari or kusari (fighting chains);
finger rings with blades or other sharp objects projecting from the surface;
Taser and stun guns shorter than 480 mm;
crossbows designed for one-handed use;
crossbows 500 mm or shorter;
Constant Companion (belt-buckle knife);
push daggers;
devices shorter than 30 cm concealing a knife blade (e.g. knife-comb);
spiked wristbands;
blowguns;
Kiyoga or Steel Cobra batons (spring batons);
spring-loaded rigid batons (triggered by a button or lever);
morning stars; and
brass knuckles.


Thats all fine and dandy but that bears no relation to self defense in any way. All that is, is a list of items that are prohibited from entry to Canada.

I can not remember the legal term, but in Canadian law there is a premise that if you break a law for the greater good, ie to save a life etc., you can not be charged. As in you broke the speed limit taking someone to the hospital. Just recently a man in Toronto was found to be carrying a pistol for self defense without a license and without an authorization to carry. The judge ruled that what he did was reasonable in his circumstances and iirc dropped the charges.

There is no list of approved items for use in self defense. They did that on purpose so you could use anything at your disposal when the time came.

I will and can not tell you to carry a prohibited item for self defense, but there are many cases like the one I showed above where the person was not charged solely based on the tool they choose to use to defend themselves. You will have to decide for yourself if that is something you want to do.

Shawn

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:33 pm 
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the only thing i carry on me that i could use other than my keys is: the sog multi-tool i carry while working and a pocket knife with a 3-4 inch blade. both are carry primary as a tool, and both are carry in a sheath in plain view on my belt.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Do you have a link to the man caught carrying illegally? That's something I'd like to read.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:03 pm 
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azrael99 wrote:
the only thing i carry on me that i could use other than my keys is: the sog multi-tool i carry while working and a pocket knife with a 3-4 inch blade. both are carry primary as a tool, and both are carry in a sheath in plain view on my belt.


Awesome, that is a really good start. Now what you need is training, try and find some good knife fighting classes. And if you can find it some force on force training.

Force on force I would say is the big one. The issue most people have is when attacked it is the first time it has happened to them so their brains have no options or previous experience to draw from. That is when you get the deer in headlights thing, while you brain tries to decide what to do.

Think about it like driving. The first time we all drove we sucked hard, because we had never done it before and there is a ton going on at once. But the more we did it the better we got, now I bet most of us don't even register what we are doing, it just happens. That is how you want to be we you are attacked, you will be surprised, but you will just act as well.

BullOnParade wrote:
Do you have a link to the man caught carrying illegally? That's something I'd like to read.


I don't have it right now, but I will see if I can find it.

Shawn

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:39 am 
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BullOnParade wrote:
Do you have a link to the man caught carrying illegally? That's something I'd like to read.


I seem to recall that case too....it was fairly recent. The guy had a unregistered handgun and he had no PAL and he was carrying it with him to protect himself. The judge acquitted him of the firearms charges because he had a reasonable fear for his life and only carried the firearm in response to those threats.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:23 am 
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Damn, I am having trouble finding the news articles. But I will post up when I do find them.

Shawn

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:45 pm 
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shawn wrote:
Damn, I am having trouble finding the news articles. But I will post up when I do find them.

Shawn


Same here. It was all over the papers for a while and now I can't find a single article!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:55 pm 
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If you happen across it, I'd love to see it, but I believe you and know papers don't run articles like this for long, it conflicts with the general media consensus when people are beating firearms charges.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:14 am 
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BullOnParade wrote:
If you happen across it, I'd love to see it, but I believe you and know papers don't run articles like this for long, it conflicts with the general media consensus when people are beating firearms charges.


No kidding. As best I can remember, the guy did not have a PAL at all and he obtained an illegal unregistered firearm and carried it for self-protection after he had received numerous gang threats and possibly even attempts on his life. The judge found that his fear for his life was reasonable and while not condoning carrying illegal firearms, he acquitted him of the charge.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:08 am 
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I will pass it on if I find anything.

Other than that, is there and info or senarios you guys are curious about? I could just type a book, but I type like a monkey, and I find it sticks better if its things people ask about.

Shawn

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:40 pm 
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shawn wrote:
I will pass it on if I find anything.

Other than that, is there and info or senarios you guys are curious about? I could just type a book, but I type like a monkey, and I find it sticks better if its things people ask about.

Shawn


I keep a trunk gun. It's legal to keep it there so long as it's stored correctly. Assuming an active shooter scenario or loved ones threatened and tehy are are unable to escape and i used it, am i likely to get pasted by the law anyway? Most situations if i can get to my car, i can leave the scene, and that's the choice I'd take. My oifficial explanation is that there's lots of rabid animals in my AO and I keep it just in case. (Which is true actually)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:16 pm 
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Horatio_Tyllis wrote:
shawn wrote:
I will pass it on if I find anything.

Other than that, is there and info or senarios you guys are curious about? I could just type a book, but I type like a monkey, and I find it sticks better if its things people ask about.

Shawn


I keep a trunk gun. It's legal to keep it there so long as it's stored correctly. Assuming an active shooter scenario or loved ones threatened and tehy are are unable to escape and i used it, am i likely to get pasted by the law anyway? Most situations if i can get to my car, i can leave the scene, and that's the choice I'd take. My oifficial explanation is that there's lots of rabid animals in my AO and I keep it just in case. (Which is true actually)


I don't think you'd face any trouble in that scenario. You can use force to protect others as well as yourself and I can't imagine anyone faulting you for going in and rescuing loved ones.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:20 pm 
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That's what I figure. Just wondering how they will react to a trunk gun. :p

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:38 pm 
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i wonder, how good is that "defense tool" ??

Image

i had a basic training and personal experience with pressure point.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:01 pm 
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Horatio_Tyllis wrote:
I keep a trunk gun. It's legal to keep it there so long as it's stored correctly. Assuming an active shooter scenario or loved ones threatened and tehy are are unable to escape and i used it, am i likely to get pasted by the law anyway? Most situations if i can get to my car, i can leave the scene, and that's the choice I'd take. My oifficial explanation is that there's lots of rabid animals in my AO and I keep it just in case. (Which is true actually)


First the trunk gun.

Yes it is legal, but as long as you are following storage regs not transport regs. There have been precedent setting cases where people have been charged and convicted for improper storage for assuming that just because its in your car its in transport. If you are not currently on your way to or from the place you plan to use the firearm, it is in storage.

Second the active shooter.

The answer is depends. I don't think you would be charged in any variation for ending the threat. But that is not your only issue in this scenario.

Bottom line is if you arm yourself in an active shooter situation and attempt to move to the shooter/shooters you are most like going to be shot and killed by the police. It is not your job, responsibility or even wise to attempt this. All this will do is tie up police resources dealing with you, or most likely your corpse. Which will ultimately delay the response that your loved ones may need in a timely fashion.

There are various things that are in place to help the police not shoot each other and undercover officers in these situations. Such as comms with dispatch, the color of the day and a few others.

Current training is that the first 2 officers on the scene are coming in and they are going to be moving to the gunfire. If you are seen with your truck gun you most likely will be engaged and shot until you are on the ground, at which point you will be handcuffed and position reported and possibly left there until the real shooters are dealt with. You will not be given medical aid until the area has been deemed clear and safe for the paramedics to enter.

Now to add to the above these things happen in public places such as malls and schools. Think about how long it takes you to walk around your local mall or school and times that by 10. That is how long you will be waiting for medical aid as the mall/school is searched and cleared if that phase happens right after you are engaged. Which is unlikely as you would not be the bad guy.

Now if this happens in the parking lot and you are at your car, engage and end the threat. But be prepared to be arrested and held while everything is figured out. And for the love of god open the action of your gun and lay it on the ground as soon as you hear sirens close to you and raise your hands or we may be back to the above. Do exactly as you are told when you are told without question. Once you are cuffed and the adrenalin is running down is the time to talk to the police and explain your position.

You best bet is that if you need to get to your car to get the gun, you should be leaving the area, as you just dragged your loved ones to your car. If you are not in the same location you best bet is to let the police handle it, as you will most likely get you loved ones killed by the bad guy as the police are dealing with you, because you now look like a threat.

Hope that gives you a little to think about :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:11 pm 
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azrael99 wrote:
i wonder, how good is that "defense tool" ??

i had a basic training and personal experience with pressure point.


That looks like it could be very effective as a weapon. The only issue is when they ask you why you are carrying it, what will you answer be? What purpose does this item have?

If you say a self defense weapon you will be going to jail. This is the definition of weapon in the criminal code:

Quote:
“weapon” means any thing used, designed to be used or intended for use
(a) in causing death or injury to any person, or
(b) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating any person
and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, includes a firearm;


http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... 1.html#h-2

And the things you may be charged with:

Quote:
Carrying weapon while attending public meeting

89. (1) Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, carries a weapon, a prohibited device or any ammunition or prohibited ammunition while the person is attending or is on the way to attend a public meeting.

Punishment
(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


Quote:
Carrying concealed weapon

90. (1) Every person commits an offence who carries a weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition concealed, unless the person is authorized under the Firearms Act to carry it concealed.

Punishment
(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1)
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... ml#docCont

Now if you have some other reason for carrying this tool, such as you loose you keys lots so you use this so they are harder to loose, you should be fine.

A good stout flashlight is a great tool to carry, such as a surefire or the like. They are sturdy enough to be used on pressure points, can blind people and its night 50% of the time. And I can't see in the dark so I use a flash light to see at night.

Its all about how you articulate your actions, if you are in doubt, shut up and let your lawyer do the talking. You will never talk yourself out of thing, but you sure can talk yourself into things.

Shawn

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Last edited by shawn on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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