Canadian's want to defend themselves?

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Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by BullOnParade » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:43 pm

Okay, this interview has been on CTV News Net today, talking about different factors that the opposition parties in Canada could use to force an election. Take a look around 4:06 when the interviewee talks about the right of Canadian's to defend themselves. I doubt we'll be purchasing snub nose handguns anytime soon, but maybe decriminalization of carrying pepper spray or other less lethal options? I don't want this thread to get shut down over politics, but just wanted to share an interesting source.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Horatio_Tyllis » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:11 pm

It would be nice to know that we won't end up in jail for doing something other than simply politely asking a mugger to stop stabbing us.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Copperhead » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:03 pm

That is an interesting article. I agree that we are not going to see snubbies anytime soon though. I wouldn't mind seeing CEW or pepperspray though.

On the topic though, I feel I should plug http://www.canadacarry.org/forums/ and http://www.casd.ca/. Both are reasonably active in the fight for increased rights to self defense.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Horatio_Tyllis » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:23 pm

Interesting. i just want to be legally allowed to carry my shotgun openly slung over my shoulder. Is that so bad?
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by BullOnParade » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:45 pm

Horatio_Tyllis wrote:Interesting. i just want to be legally allowed to carry my shotgun openly slung over my shoulder. Is that so bad?
A guy at the range I've been applying to was telling me his parents live in a small farming community in Sask (is there any other kind?). He said his dad's day is spent so much on his own farm, or on a friend's farm, he doesn't take his shotgun out of the truck, and he carries a revolver in a shoulder holster when he's on his own property. I know pics or it didn't happen, but still made me day dream.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Horatio_Tyllis » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:58 pm

On an interesting note, we CAN carry any knife or sword we wish openly so long as it's unconcealed. I like to take my 10 inch survival knife on my belt when i walk my dog by the train tracks. I've seen coyotes run along them a couple times, and if one attacked my dog, it would end up very dead very fast.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by mantis » Wed May 18, 2011 9:18 pm

BullOnParade wrote:
Horatio_Tyllis wrote:Interesting. i just want to be legally allowed to carry my shotgun openly slung over my shoulder. Is that so bad?
A guy at the range I've been applying to was telling me his parents live in a small farming community in Sask (is there any other kind?). He said his dad's day is spent so much on his own farm, or on a friend's farm, he doesn't take his shotgun out of the truck, and he carries a revolver in a shoulder holster when he's on his own property. I know pics or it didn't happen, but still made me day dream.
That seems kind of odd....while you could legally carry a restricted firearm on your own property in that manner, you could not legally fire it.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by mantis » Wed May 18, 2011 9:20 pm

Horatio_Tyllis wrote:Interesting. i just want to be legally allowed to carry my shotgun openly slung over my shoulder. Is that so bad?
As long as it's unloaded you theortically could. Theoretically meaning that carrying it would not contravene the firearms act but they would probably get you for weapons dangerous or some other "catch-all" type of weapons charge if you were carrying it around in an urban environment.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Horatio_Tyllis » Wed May 18, 2011 10:56 pm

Yeah, but i still want to. :p
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Blacksheep » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:36 am

hi! 8-) so btw since you guys are so close, I added myself to your chapter since I plan to crash some of your events or at least ransack your forums :wink:
mantis wrote:while you could legally carry a restricted firearm on your own property in that manner, you could not legally fire it.
admittedly I am still trying to learn your laws in regards to firearms, but if it was your property, and it was far enough from the city and\or houses, why couldn't you legally fire it? :?:

also, I totally support the movement for people to be able to defend themselves,
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by mantis » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:41 am

Erie quiet wrote:hi! 8-) so btw since you guys are so close, I added myself to your chapter since I plan to crash some of your events or at least ransack your forums :wink:
mantis wrote:while you could legally carry a restricted firearm on your own property in that manner, you could not legally fire it.
admittedly I am still trying to learn your laws in regards to firearms, but if it was your property, and it was far enough from the city and\or houses, why couldn't you legally fire it? :?:

also, I totally support the movement for people to be able to defend themselves,
If it was a non-restricted firearm, you'd have no problem at all. Restricted firearms (which includes all pistols) may only be lawfully discharged at an approved firing range. Out in the boonies, you can take your non-restricted firearms (rifles, shotguns, etc) out and fire them no problem at all.

We do indeed have the right to self-defence in Canada but the law is not all that well understood. If faced with a threat, you may lawfully use force to stop that threat, however, the force must be measured against the threat faced. If someone breaks into your house and you find them ransacking your fridge and you shoot him, you'll be going to jail. If that same person had a knife in his/her hand and you found them in your kid's bedroom, that would be another story altogether. Also, the supreme court just ruled that you have no legal requirement to retreat from your own house which effectiely implements a castle doctrine in Canada. Parliament is going to clarify the sections of the criminal code on self-defence to remove some of the ambiguity. Right now, there is too much leeway for police and prosecutors to argue that you went overboard and lay a charge. Personally, I think the appropriate test is whether or not a reasonable person in the same set of circumstances would have felt sufficiently threatened to respon the way you did.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Nobody » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:48 pm

Your American from GTA back in the US here.

I carry a concealed firearm only on days ending in 'y'. My storage safe is the space directly below my pillow. And other than my time out of the country, this has been my normal status.

So, I spent some time looking at how to get my firearms into Canada. Turns out I had to join IPSC and get a black badge (https://www.ipsc-ont.org/badge1.htm), and then I could be permitted to transport an unloaded high powered range gun (basically Tactical, but exempt for sport purposes), in a locked box. Those nice folks at IPSC-ONT have some sort of contest almost every single day. Sounded good to me.

Anyway, I'm proud to hear you nice folks got the long gun registry uncapped and are making progress. It would be nice to one day legally carry concealed in Canada, and hopefully before it's legal in NYC or California. Congratulations and keep up the hard work.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Blacksheep » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:58 am

you say you sleep with your pistol under your pillow,

heres a thread you might like to read
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by BullOnParade » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:21 am

Erie quiet wrote:you say you sleep with your pistol under your pillow,

heres a thread you might like to read
link :wink:
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Blacksheep » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:02 pm

woops :oops:
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Nobody » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:33 pm

Thanks for the humor. So, how valid is the IPSC Black Badge homework I've done?
Most of the online folks keep promoting it as the primary import reason and credential for handgun possession within the nation.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by BullOnParade » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:49 pm

You still need to declare the pistol at the border, and it needs so be stored unloaded, trigger locked in a locked box, separate from the ammo. Ammo must be transported in an "approved" box, which does not include a mag.

Oh, and you'll still be charged if you use it in self defense.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by shawn » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:49 pm

Just to add what little I can to this thread there are some rather big misconseptions and myths about the laws surrounding both firearms and self defence in Canada.
mantis wrote: That seems kind of odd....while you could legally carry a restricted firearm on your own property in that manner, you could not legally fire it.
You can not legally carry or load a resticted on your property. You can carry but not load it in your house, or anywhere other than what is listed on your ATT no.
Erie quiet wrote: but if it was your property, and it was far enough from the city and\or houses, why couldn't you legally fire it? :?:
No, the only place restricted firarms can be loaded and fired is at a place approved by the CFO and listed on your ATT. So only at an approved range as that is the only place the CFO currently approve for restricted use.
BullOnParade wrote:You still need to declare the pistol at the border, and it needs so be stored unloaded, trigger locked in a locked box, separate from the ammo. Ammo must be transported in an "approved" box, which does not include a mag.

Oh, and you'll still be charged if you use it in self defense.
There is nothing in the law about approved ammo boxes or that you can not transport you ammo in mags. It just has to be seperate from the firearm or in the same locked container.

You will also not be charged if you use a firearm in self defence if it was reasonable, justified and propertionate. The you will always get charged is just another myth. It happens hundreds on times a day all across Canada and 99% of people are not charged.

If anyone has any questions about use of force or the firearms act ask away. I use both in my job and can give first hand info.

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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by Nobody » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:12 pm

Shawn,

Can I enter Canada with my weapon for the intent of acquiring an IPSC Black Badge and competing with other sportsmen?

I can sleep with the gun under my pillow- I just have to leave the magazine next to it?

"The use of lethal force is justified in the situation of immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent," works?

How about doctrine of competing harms / affirmative defense? "I had no alternative but to break the law in order to prevent an evil act."

In the event I can't outrun someone, is this thread accurate in that I can't spray them in the face with OC / CS ?

If you're at liberty to say, what is your profession?
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by BullOnParade » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:35 pm

shawn wrote:Just to add what little I can to this thread there are some rather big misconseptions and myths about the laws surrounding both firearms and self defence in Canada.
mantis wrote: That seems kind of odd....while you could legally carry a restricted firearm on your own property in that manner, you could not legally fire it.
You can not legally carry or load a resticted on your property. You can carry but not load it in your house, or anywhere other than what is listed on your ATT no.
Erie quiet wrote: but if it was your property, and it was far enough from the city and\or houses, why couldn't you legally fire it? :?:
No, the only place restricted firarms can be loaded and fired is at a place approved by the CFO and listed on your ATT. So only at an approved range as that is the only place the CFO currently approve for restricted use.
BullOnParade wrote:You still need to declare the pistol at the border, and it needs so be stored unloaded, trigger locked in a locked box, separate from the ammo. Ammo must be transported in an "approved" box, which does not include a mag.

Oh, and you'll still be charged if you use it in self defense.
There is nothing in the law about approved ammo boxes or that you can not transport you ammo in mags. It just has to be seperate from the firearm or in the same locked container.

Shawn
Sorry Shawn, I'm skeptical. Here's a story of a man being charged for transporting his ammo in a loaded mag, at a time when he didn't even have the firearm in the vehicle. The term "approved container" was used during my PAL course, though the instructor said there is no definition of an "approved container" but that the cardboard boxes they are sold in must be considered approved, or else you would need to transfer them to something else, just to take them home.
Nobody wrote:Shawn,

Can I enter Canada with my weapon for the intent of acquiring an IPSC Black Badge and competing with other sportsmen?

I can sleep with the gun under my pillow- I just have to leave the magazine next to it?

"The use of lethal force is justified in the situation of immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent," works?

How about doctrine of competing harms / affirmative defense? "I had no alternative but to break the law in order to prevent an evil act."

In the event I can't outrun someone, is this thread accurate in that I can't spray them in the face with OC / CS ?

If you're at liberty to say, what is your profession?
Thank you,

Nobody
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... xt#p891572
Nobody, you're starting to sound like a troll.

Yes you can bring a firearm into Canada, call the border officials and speak with them for details and paperwork you will need to bring it across, you should be able to do a lot of it ahead of time, speeding the process for yourself.

You CAN sleep with the gun under your pillow, so long as it is unloaded, trigger locked AND inside of a locked box. The magazine being readily available may still be viewed as improper storage, and charges MAY be pressed, they MAY NOT stick, but they will still haul you downtown.

Like above, if you shoot someone in defense, you will probably still be charged, the charges may or may not stick, but you will be charged.

OC/CS is illegal in Canada. Dog or Bear spray is legal, but you will be asked why you have it, and if you say for self defense against humans, you will be charged with possession of a weapon.

Canada's self defense, stand your ground laws, castle doctrine are VERY ambiguous, it was a goal of the current government to alter the wording of these laws to give a more concise view of what constitutes legal ramifications for the defender.

P.S. Nobody, you're asking advice from a forum of strangers on the internet. At this point it is all :words:, do some research for yourself, contact border officials, CSSA, and RCMP officials to get directions on how to legally bring your firearms into Canada when you're visiting.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by shawn » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:22 am

BullOnParade wrote: Sorry Shawn, I'm skeptical. Here's a story of a man being charged for transporting his ammo in a loaded mag, at a time when he didn't even have the firearm in the vehicle. The term "approved container" was used during my PAL course, though the instructor said there is no definition of an "approved container" but that the cardboard boxes they are sold in must be considered approved, or else you would need to transfer them to something else, just to take them home.
You are right that is a single case from 1998. Can you show me a single other case of this? Do you even know the out come of this case?

It happening once, does not make it right or even the law.

There is no such thing as an approved container, you instructor was wrong. Not to mention that the firearms act has no mandate to regulate ammunition only firearms. The ammunition regulatory body is NARCAN. All the firearms act does is spell out how firearms can be used and stored in relation to ammunition, not how ammunition has to be handled.

BullOnParade wrote: You CAN sleep with the gun under your pillow, so long as it is unloaded, trigger locked AND inside of a locked box. The magazine being readily available may still be viewed as improper storage, and charges MAY be pressed, they MAY NOT stick, but they will still haul you downtown.
Sorry but the loaded magazine is a none issue and perfectly legal whether in the same container as the trigger locked pistol or not. There is no charge here and no one would be taken downtown.

Please post up the section of the firearms act that says this is a no go.
BullOnParade wrote: Like above, if you shoot someone in defense, you will probably still be charged, the charges may or may not stick, but you will be charged.
Sorry but not true again. It happens more than once every year where someone shoots in self defense and not only doesn’t get charged but is released at the scene. I am sorry but you are buying into the the medias BS.
BullOnParade wrote: OC/CS is illegal in Canada. Dog or Bear spray is legal, but you will be asked why you have it, and if you say for self defense against humans, you will be charged with possession of a weapon.
This is correct.
BullOnParade wrote: Canada's self defense, stand your ground laws, castle doctrine are VERY ambiguous, it was a goal of the current government to alter the wording of these laws to give a more concise view of what constitutes legal ramifications for the defender.
The current laws are not broken and the new one changes nothing. It has mostly been for show unfortunately. They had a real chance to change some of the issues but chose the smoke and mirrors approach.
BullOnParade wrote: P.S. Nobody, you're asking advice from a forum of strangers on the internet. At this point it is all :words:, do some research for yourself, contact border officials, CSSA, and RCMP officials to get directions on how to legally bring your firearms into Canada when you're visiting.


I agree.

Bull I am not trying to be an ass but there are far to many myths and misconceptions on both the firearms act and self deference laws. And since this is an area I have a great deal of knowledge of, I like to help pass it on. Like I said before I deal with both of these as part of my job, I work for a federal agency and with a federal police force. That is all I am willing to say on my employer.

Now I have a few questions for you.

Have you read the firearms act? It is only 75 pages or so. Why haven’t you? It is the law on this not what you PAL instructor said, not what the RCMP say or what the CFC says.

How about have you read sections 25, 26, 27, 34, 35, 36, and 37 of the criminal code?

The above sections are the law in Canada for the use of force up to and including deadly force. They are clear and easy to understand there is no issue with the current laws, most have never read them and rely on TV for their info.

Here are the links to them both, please take a look and let me know if you have any questions and I will do my best the help you out.

Criminal Code:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Firearms Act:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And if your interested here is the regulations on ammo, section 131 is the only law in regards to ammo use and storage:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... ml#docCont" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry for writing a book but we really need to get the right info into better circulation.

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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by mantis » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:58 am

Transporting ammo in a magazine is not illegal - I do it all the time. There is actually no law regarding transport of ammunition other than if you are transporting restricted firearms with it - the ammo must either be locked up with or inaccessible to the firearm.

Using force - even that involving a firearm will not automatically result in arrest especially now that two major events have taken place: 1) The government is working to clarify and modernize the laws governing self-defence. This change will even go so far as to mae it legal to fire warning shots. Right now firing a warning shot could get you charged with careless use of a firearm but shooting an armed attacker won't even get you arrested. 2) The supreme court of Canada ruled that when faced with a threat in your own home, you have no duty to retreat from that threat. In effect, they have legalized the castle doctrine in Canada.

Our self-defence laws are intended to ensure that the use of force is measured and appropriate to the threat faced. If someone breaks into your house and you wake up and catch him stealing your flat screen TV and you confront them with a firearm and hold them for police, no harm no foul. If you confront them and they pull a weapon and you shoot them, again, no harm no foul. If they simply run and you shoot them, you're going to be wearing bracelets. The test has always been what would a reasonable person faced with the same set of circumstances? Having said that, some crown attourneys have bene over-zealous and laided often ridiculous charges in cases of self-defence. One case that comes to mind is the guy who got charged with unsafe storage in a self-defence case because the crown believed that had his firearm and ammo been stored according to the law, he would not have had time to get it out and load it in order to use it in self-defence. That charge is being vigourously fought before the courts right now.
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Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by shawn » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:44 pm

mantis wrote:This change will even go so far as to make it legal to fire warning shots.
I agree with you post except for the above. There is nothing in any legislation current or proposed that legalize warning shots. Firing a firearm in a self defense situation is deadly force full stop no exceptions. There is no allowances for warning shots either you are in threat of grievous bodily harm and you are shooting the threat or your not, and not shooting at all.

If you have time to mess around with warning shots you are not under threat of grievous bodily harm. Either the bad guy needs to be shot RFN or not, there is no in between under the law. You are thinking on a quote from an MP in the house of commons where in the heat of a debate he said "he" thought warning shots would be reasonable. That does not make it legal or the law.

I will ask my favorite questions in these discussions. Have you read the current law on this? Have you read the new law?

If you have please point out where it says warning shots are no longer deadly force and legal. I would love to see it as I know for a fact it is not there.

Shawn
"Stupid Should Hurt"
"A Surefire is not a map reading light, it's a blind a mother f**ker while I shoot him in the face light"

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mantis
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Location: Brantford, Ontario

Re: Canadian's want to defend themselves?

Post by mantis » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:26 pm

shawn wrote:
mantis wrote:This change will even go so far as to make it legal to fire warning shots.
I agree with you post except for the above. There is nothing in any legislation current or proposed that legalize warning shots. Firing a firearm in a self defense situation is deadly force full stop no exceptions. There is no allowances for warning shots either you are in threat of grievous bodily harm and you are shooting the threat or your not, and not shooting at all.

If you have time to mess around with warning shots you are not under threat of grievous bodily harm. Either the bad guy needs to be shot RFN or not, there is no in between under the law. You are thinking on a quote from an MP in the house of commons where in the heat of a debate he said "he" thought warning shots would be reasonable. That does not make it legal or the law.

I will ask my favorite questions in these discussions. Have you read the current law on this? Have you read the new law?

If you have please point out where it says warning shots are no longer deadly force and legal. I would love to see it as I know for a fact it is not there.

Shawn
It wasn't just an MP who said it - it was Public Safety Minister Vic Toews - the man who wrote the legislation.
Doc Torr wrote:"Those who live by the sword get shot by those who see them coming a hundred yards away."
roscoe wrote:.....and don't plan on being The Humongous - it ain't happening.

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