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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Interesting article I got in my "feed" about a Connecticut Firefighter being pulled over for being radioactive... He had a Cardiac Stress test that day.

http://www.ctpost.com/default/article/Radioactive-man-Milford-resident-pulled-over-by-3549631.php

Seems to me that if it's so sensitive it picks up radioactivity inside your body while you drive by, that constitutes an illegal search... Maybe they need to recalibrate or something?

I am not saying cops should not have these, but this is a big red flag...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:11 pm 
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Isn't it something like, "if it can be seen/detected from outside, it's a legal search"? Or something to that effect?


ie, a dog sniffing the outside of your car, smelling a trace scent that no human could, still legal for reasonable suspicion/search/whatever.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:35 pm 
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I would think that if "it" can just randomly see inside your body that it's not a legal search. The dog search is another story, first of all, you were probably pulled over for another reason. I Don't think a dog could sniff out contraband in your car as you speed by at 65MPH...

I would think though, that had the firefighter had something illegal going on, and had been pulled over for this, that he could possibly get all evidence thrown out as he did not consent to a search of his body... I mean you have to consent to a breathalyzer, right? Is this in any way different than collecting a sample?

I would love to hear from the LEOs onboard chime in on this... Do you have them? Are they at all accurate? Are they calibrated? Ever needed it? What was the outcome?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Dawgboy wrote:
Interesting article I got in my "feed" about a Connecticut Firefighter being pulled over for being radioactive... He had a Cardiac Stress test that day.

http://www.ctpost.com/default/article/Radioactive-man-Milford-resident-pulled-over-by-3549631.php

Seems to me that if it's so sensitive it picks up radioactivity inside your body while you drive by, that constitutes an illegal search... Maybe they need to recalibrate or something?

I am not saying cops should not have these, but this is a big red flag...


Must be an issue in other places -
"Patients undergoing diagnostic procedures are less likely than patients undergoing therapeutic procedures to be informed that they could activate radiation alarms in public places," said Armin Ansari, a health physicist in the radiation studies branch of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Ga. "We also found that many health care professionals who administer radiopharmaceuticals to patients — or who communicate with them regarding the radiation safety aspects of their procedures — have not had any formal or systematic training in patient education, communications or counseling," he added. "

(Source)

(Edit)

I was surprised that so small an amount could be detected -
So in looking further - I found this
http://www.ara.com/Newsroom_Whatsnew/pr ... ileRad.pdf
and this
You can gt a cell pnone with a radiation detector - built in

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Last edited by TacAir on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Radioactive material are considered hazardous materials (HAZMAT) and the transport of these material are very tightly regulated (as they should be) . You cannot own a lot of HAZMAT (non radioactive or radioactive) materials legally in reportable quantities without having the proper credentials.

For instance naturally occurring radioactive material (NORM) is a big deal in the petroleum drilling world. Even NORM is subject to regulations under HAZMAT laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAZMAT_Cla ... Substances

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturally_ ... e_material

I am all for second amendment rights but I really do not want people owning unregulated radioactive substances in reportable quantities anywhere me.

A radiation detector going off is IMO the same a drug dog pointing in terms of probable cause...just saying.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Dawgboy wrote:
I would think that if "it" can just randomly see inside your body that it's not a legal search. The dog search is another story, first of all, you were probably pulled over for another reason. I Don't think a dog could sniff out contraband in your car as you speed by at 65MPH...

I would think though, that had the firefighter had something illegal going on, and had been pulled over for this, that he could possibly get all evidence thrown out as he did not consent to a search of his body... I mean you have to consent to a breathalyzer, right? Is this in any way different than collecting a sample?

I would love to hear from the LEOs onboard chime in on this... Do you have them? Are they at all accurate? Are they calibrated? Ever needed it? What was the outcome?


Just to clarify there are narcotics canine units that can smell drugs while in transit in big rigs at full speed on the highway...there have actually been bounties placed on said dogs. As a former Hazmat officer the detectors have to be calibrated to a specific type of radiation most likely gamma (insert Hulk joke here) otherwise there would be all kinds of things that set it off...a typical smoke alarm emits alpha radiation in large quantities but alpha radiation is so weak that it cant pass through clothing or skin...so the detectors are set for radiation types and level that would require hazmat markings and specific authorizations.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:54 pm 
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raptor wrote:

A radiation detector going off is IMO the same a drug dog pointing in terms of probable cause...just saying.


Probable cause of what?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Raptor, are you a current LEO? Just curious... While I agree that we all have a vested interest in not having unknown radiologicals bouncing around the country, I do think this was a major invasion of the man's privacy... I really think this would not have even happened with proper calibration...

Turn the sensitivity WAY UP around ports of entry and Airports, but on the road in suburban Conn? I don't think the Police need to be pulling people over for coming home from the Home Despot with a new smoke detector...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Phoenix David wrote:
raptor wrote:

A radiation detector going off is IMO the same a drug dog pointing in terms of probable cause...just saying.


Probable cause of what?


Probable cause for a search. It would certainly also be reasonable suspicion for a stop as well.

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Allow me to clear up some confusion about how these detectors work. They are passive in nature. They only detect radioactive particles striking a sensor within the device. Some are directional in nature, allowing some ability to detect a source generating the radiation. Radiation from say within a car that does not penetrate the car's body would not set off the meter. Alpha and Beta particles for example would be the product of radioactive decay or background radiation and MAYBE not such a risk. Gamma and X-rays could penetrate sheet metal and if a source were transmitting from inside a car enough for a detector to sense it THROUGH the car's body would be a bad sign.

Yes, I've been issued them when I do the CRV details in Manhattan. We get briefed about the known medical treatment centers in a given area that use radiopharms to avoid such false positives. I've also found buildings with a lot of cut granite in the walls or the floors give off a little above background levels.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:02 pm 
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I cannot imagine that the cardiac stress test puts enough isotope into the human body that it would be normally readable through a car door traveling at speed. I could be wrong, I am not a Physicist...

I still think there must be a calibration issue or something to make this happen...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:17 pm 
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TacAir wrote:
Dawgboy wrote:
Interesting article I got in my "feed" about a Connecticut Firefighter being pulled over for being radioactive... He had a Cardiac Stress test that day.

http://www.ctpost.com/default/article/Radioactive-man-Milford-resident-pulled-over-by-3549631.php

Seems to me that if it's so sensitive it picks up radioactivity inside your body while you drive by, that constitutes an illegal search... Maybe they need to recalibrate or something?

I am not saying cops should not have these, but this is a big red flag...


Must be an issue in other places -
"Patients undergoing diagnostic procedures are less likely than patients undergoing therapeutic procedures to be informed that they could activate radiation alarms in public places," said Armin Ansari, a health physicist in the radiation studies branch of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Ga. "We also found that many health care professionals who administer radiopharmaceuticals to patients — or who communicate with them regarding the radiation safety aspects of their procedures — have not had any formal or systematic training in patient education, communications or counseling," he added. "

(Source)

(Edit)

I was surprised that so small an amount could be detected -
So in looking further - I found this
http://www.ara.com/Newsroom_Whatsnew/pr ... ileRad.pdf
and this
You can gt a cell pnone with a radiation detector - built in


When I first saw that title, I thought:

Image

Then I realized it was more like this:

Image

I understood technically every digital camera is a radiation detector, that part of that "noise" present in the shots are the result of radioactivity. One need only filter out visible light and anything that hits the sensor can only be Gamma and X rays. Smart phone cams are better suited to being reprogrammed to do this than a dedicated camera. Realize that does not detect alpha and beta particles.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Dawgboy wrote:
Raptor, are you a current LEO? Just curious... While I agree that we all have a vested interest in not having unknown radiologicals bouncing around the country, I do think this was a major invasion of the man's privacy... I really think this would not have even happened with proper calibration...

Turn the sensitivity WAY UP around ports of entry and Airports, but on the road in suburban Conn? I don't think the Police need to be pulling people over for coming home from the Home Despot with a new smoke detector...


I am not a LEO but I do have a lot experience with HAZMAT, HAZMAT reporting and HAZMAT transport.

BTW the federal (never mind state) penalty for transporting a reportable quantity of radioactive material without the proper placards and/or paperwork for any reason is severe. Doing it commercially can also result in suspension of any DOT licenses in addition to the penalties.

Knowingly transporting un-shielded and un-placarded radioactive materials in reportable quantities can result in felony charges, seizure of contaminated vehicle and equipment not to mention no end of grief. Obviously the guy did not have a reportable amount of radioactive material and broke no laws, but the LEO IMO acted appropriately since the vehicle had no placard, a non commercial license and his detector went off.

A typical radiation placard.
Image


I would note that these rules and penalties apply to a lot of other simple commercial products. HAZMAT transportation is serious business and if done improperly can hurt a lot of people. Honestly I am more worried about a tanker trailer load of methethyldeath being mishandled than any zombie.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Right there with you on the hazmat stuff, Raptor. I was the Safety coordinator for an Engineering research lab for 4 years and some of the stuff we were responsible for were really deadly. we had an acid that no kidding, a single drop on the skin left untreated would kill you in a week... You had to flush with a special base. Every time a lab tech moved it, he would have to notify me, and we would both suit up so he could pull it out of storage and walk across the room to the hood bench he worked with it.

We also dealt with a lot of Aramid fibers and associated chemicals that all were dangerous. If the average person really knew what was buzzing by him/her on the freeway and railway... :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Dawgboy wrote:
Right there with you on the hazmat stuff, Raptor. I was the Safety coordinator for an Engineering research lab for 4 years and some of the stuff we were responsible for were really deadly. we had an acid that no kidding, a single drop on the skin left untreated would kill you in a week... You had to flush with a special base. Every time a lab tech moved it, he would have to notify me, and we would both suit up so he could pull it out of storage and walk across the room to the hood bench he worked with it.

We also dealt with a lot of Aramid fibers and associated chemicals that all were dangerous. If the average person really knew what was buzzing by him/her on the freeway and railway... :shock:


Yes that is exactly what I am talking about. There is stuff out there in regular commerce that are downright scary. They can make a highly radioactive isotope seem like a safe product. :shock:

I am all in favor of HAZMAT stops to ensure safe cargo handling and citing any improper practices.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:35 pm 
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Dawgboy wrote:
I cannot imagine that the cardiac stress test puts enough isotope into the human body that it would be normally readable through a car door traveling at speed. I could be wrong, I am not a Physicist...

I still think there must be a calibration issue or something to make this happen...

I used to supervise the cardiac part of those tests - the nuc med tech was the guy in charge of the isotopes tho, nobody else ever even touched those syringes, which stayed in their nice lead cases until right before use. Dose is ordered ahead of time (like 36h) for that particular patient, based on body weight. It has to be a big enough dose that we get a good enough pic of the heart with a gamma camera for the radiologist and/or cardiologist to be able to read a difference in the before and after pics. There's an upper limit on the dose, if you're over a certain weight, we do the before and after pics a couple days apart to stay under that limit. It's got a short half life - my guess is this guy might even have been on his way home, by about a day and a half after there's nothing left to detect.

But the strength of signal needed to get a clear pic on a gamma camera vs strength of signal on a yes/no detector should be different, the yes/no requires a much lower signal strength. But even I didn't have any idea the police routinely used these detectors until recently.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:21 am 
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Dawgboy wrote:
I cannot imagine that the cardiac stress test puts enough isotope into the human body that it would be normally readable through a car door traveling at speed. I could be wrong, I am not a Physicist...

I still think there must be a calibration issue or something to make this happen...

My wife works in Radiology/Nuke Med and is currently working on putting more letters after her name in the same so she's taking rad safety and more physics. So I get more of this than I actually want to know about :lol:

Anyway...

The issue with passive radiation detectors (what the layman would lump into the category of "Geiger Counters") is that they're really fucking sensitive. We are astonishingly good at detecting radiation in un-fucking-believably small quantities. This is part of why the public and the media spazzes out any time some scientist makes a report. It's not commonly understood that we can detect radiation in quantities that are effectively equivalent to zero. It's reasonably easy to detect a single atom decaying and emitting a gamma photon. Some of the commonly used measures of radiation represent a single atom decaying per second. This is equivalent to having a device that starts clicking at you when it detects a single photon of visible light and yet you're worried about sunburn. My wife has to remember to not bring bananas in for lunch or else her building gets pissy and sets off alarms. Bananas are decently radioactive, if you didn't already know that.

Then, the issue with nuke med is that, for certain things, we actually make people pretty damned radioactive for medicinal purposes. Some therapeutic uses of radiation actually come with the warning that you can't sleep in the same bed with someone else because you're too radioactive. So, some stuff we hardly light people up at all. Some stuff we almost make them glow in the dark.

So, you have a sensor in the cop car that's really, really sensitive. It's made to detect the stray emissions for a terrorist nuke being carried inside of some shielding (or just radioactive waste someone's trying to hide so they can dump it). Then you put a guy who's pretty hot from a recent hospital visit into a normal car which offers little to no shielding. Yeah, the detector is going to go off. When you have a detector alarming at what looks like a normal passenger vehicle, you damned well better figure out why.


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I set off the alarm at a Border Patrol checkpoint after a bone-density scan a while back. The clinic forgot to give me the card saying I'd had treatment, and I forgot to ask. Lesson learned. Still, I was more impressed that they were able to pick that up than I was peeved that I wasted about 5 minutes of my time (and theirs). :lol:

I may grumble a bit about the specific location of the checkpoint, but have nothing but respect for the folks working there. It's a rough job, but they get results.

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Dawgboy wrote:
Raptor, are you a current LEO? Just curious... While I agree that we all have a vested interest in not having unknown radiologicals bouncing around the country, I do think this was a major invasion of the man's privacy... I really think this would not have even happened with proper calibration...

Turn the sensitivity WAY UP around ports of entry and Airports, but on the road in suburban Conn? I don't think the Police need to be pulling people over for coming home from the Home Despot with a new smoke detector...



The radiation hes emitting into his surroundings is setting off the detectors. Its an easily detectable dose, it doesnt require a tweaked sensor. People who undergo radioisotope therapy for cancerous thryoid tumors are so radioactive that they are in quarantine for a short time after treatment, and advised to segregate their bedding for weeks afterwards because a good amount of the radioactive iodine is secreted in their sweat.

So, its not the radioisotope in the dude thats the problem, it's the fact that he's emitting radiation into the environment.

Quote:
Radiation safety precautions after treatment with I-131 RAI
Although the treatments with 131-I are generally safe, RAI produces radiation so patients must do their best to avoid radiation exposure to others, particularly to pregnant women and young children. The amount of radiation exposure markedly decreases as the distance from the patient increases. Patients who need to travel in the days after I-131 RAI treatment are advised to carry a letter of explanation from their physician. This is because radiation detection devices used at airports or in federal buildings may pick up even very small radiation levels. Details should be discussed with a physician prior to, and at the time of, the RAI treatment.

Instructions to reduce exposure to others after I-131 RAI treatment

Action Duration (Days)
Sleep in a separate bed (~6 feet of separation) from another adult 1-11*
Delay return to work 1-5*
Maximize distance from children and pregnant women (6 feet) 1-5*
Limit time in public places 1-3*
Do not travel by airplane or public transportation 1-3*
Do not travel on a prolonged automobile trip with others 2-3
Maintain prudent distances from others (~6 feet) 2-3
Drink plenty of fluids 2-3
Do not prepare food for others 2-3
Do not share utensils with others 2-3
Sit to urinate and flush the toilet 2-3 times after use 2-3
Sleep in a separate bed (~6 feet of separation) from pregnant partner, child or infant 6-23*
*duration depends on dose of I-131 given


So, I think you're getting unnecessarily concerned here. People who have had thyroid treatment are emitting like crazy.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:28 am 
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crypto wrote:
Dawgboy wrote:
Raptor, are you a current LEO? Just curious... While I agree that we all have a vested interest in not having unknown radiologicals bouncing around the country, I do think this was a major invasion of the man's privacy... I really think this would not have even happened with proper calibration...

Turn the sensitivity WAY UP around ports of entry and Airports, but on the road in suburban Conn? I don't think the Police need to be pulling people over for coming home from the Home Despot with a new smoke detector...



The radiation hes emitting into his surroundings is setting off the detectors. Its an easily detectable dose, it doesnt require a tweaked sensor. People who undergo radioisotope therapy for cancerous thryoid tumors are so radioactive that they are in quarantine for a short time after treatment, and advised to segregate their bedding for weeks afterwards because a good amount of the radioactive iodine is secreted in their sweat.

So, its not the radioisotope in the dude thats the problem, it's the fact that he's emitting radiation into the environment.

Quote:
Radiation safety precautions after treatment with I-131 RAI
Although the treatments with 131-I are generally safe, RAI produces radiation so patients must do their best to avoid radiation exposure to others, particularly to pregnant women and young children. The amount of radiation exposure markedly decreases as the distance from the patient increases. Patients who need to travel in the days after I-131 RAI treatment are advised to carry a letter of explanation from their physician. This is because radiation detection devices used at airports or in federal buildings may pick up even very small radiation levels. Details should be discussed with a physician prior to, and at the time of, the RAI treatment.

Instructions to reduce exposure to others after I-131 RAI treatment

Action Duration (Days)
Sleep in a separate bed (~6 feet of separation) from another adult 1-11*
Delay return to work 1-5*
Maximize distance from children and pregnant women (6 feet) 1-5*
Limit time in public places 1-3*
Do not travel by airplane or public transportation 1-3*
Do not travel on a prolonged automobile trip with others 2-3
Maintain prudent distances from others (~6 feet) 2-3
Drink plenty of fluids 2-3
Do not prepare food for others 2-3
Do not share utensils with others 2-3
Sit to urinate and flush the toilet 2-3 times after use 2-3
Sleep in a separate bed (~6 feet of separation) from pregnant partner, child or infant 6-23*
*duration depends on dose of I-131 given


So, I think you're getting unnecessarily concerned here. People who have had thyroid treatment are emitting like crazy.

I know one person who successfully tripped a geiger counter from halfway across the room after radiation treatment. Couldn't cook a hotdog, but not for lack of trying.

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Hazmat is friggin' scary. A good part of a highway near me got shut down when a truck flipped on its side with the nuke number 7 hazard placard displayed. Assholes were puckered, including mine. Turned out the placard holders were the generic type with different metal inserts indicating the different hazmat classes. The truck had the placards hidden behind the default white panel, and when the truck wrecked, two of the placards popped open to that nuke class placard:shock:.

Likewise, if I get an alarm/open door call at an address, and I show up and see the fire diamond (the one with the blue, yellow, red, and white ratings), with anything above a one, I call for Hazmat. Especially a high oxiders/reactivity rating (yellow). They get paid good money to deal with that. I'm not going to swing wide open some door and maybe inadvertanly add oxygen to something I don't want to. Thankfully these are rare, as dispatch has most of these hazardous addresses documented, and most of the time FD gets dispatched also.

Handy tips that have helped me:

Keep TWO Hazmat reference apps on your phone. Having two allows you to confirm one against another, as well give pertinent info to dispatch should you be the first one on scene, see it happen, have the best vantage point of an exposed placard, etc. so you can advise incoming responders (approach from this direction, establish this safe size of perimeter)

2. Your state's department of motor vehicles should publish some sort of printed hazmat guide book. Get one and throw it in your glovebox, so when your phone is dead from listening to Pandora for 8 hours on a detail, and your car charger is in your personal car, you can still reference hazmat numbers:eek:. Florida's is bright ass orange and called a "Hazmat Guidebook" or something. It's very comprehensive, but hard to find.

3. Start paying attention to the placard numbers you see frequently on your commute, and look them up/become familiar with what they are. Chances are that'll help you immensely should shit literally go downhill.

These will be by entrances to buildings with hazamazamat traps inside. I think the numbers go 1 through 4. Higher is worse.


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I think our resident hose draggers could explain this better. I'm just a blue canary:lol:.

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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:39 pm 
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I think it's a huge invasion of privacy to search a man for nothing other than tripping a sensor. Those sensors are not immune to false positives. I'm also guessing that they don't record the event to be later brought up in court. I've seen vehicles set off stationary scanners for no reason other than driving too fast through them. I think it is a good tool for a bag, but to actively use it on the roads does create huge 4th Amendment issues. Then there's the HIPPA issues. Random traffic cops have no excuse to get into the medical conditions of john q public, whom do nothing other than get in their car and obey the law. I find this to be just another encroachment upon individual rights in the name of perceived security.

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