What about the vegans?

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What about the vegans?

Post by Burnt Toast » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:50 pm

I'm not attempting to make fun of vegans but trying to imagine how a vegetarian can survive this world overrun by zombies. For the rest of us meat consuming crowd, are vegetarians the minority with what they can eat? Are they healthier, just curious?

I'll throw in a wrench, what if livestock can not be eaten?? No live animal (domestic or wild) no matter how well you cook it, is unsafe for consumption. I suppose the vegans have the last laugh.
Better stock up on them prepacked and canned goods. Shit, if thats the case... being where I'm at nearby the mountains, there are coyotes, snakes, jack rabbits and desert tortoises. I'd rather not but I can only go so long without having fresh home cooked meat. I'll have to contempt with packaged cold meat.

Yeah so lets say that no animal can be cooked and eaten can you cope with that?

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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by JTNieman » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:56 pm

Typically vegan only believe in abstaining from their perceived "crime" or "negative action" because it's not NECESSARY in our society where we have less violent and "cruel" alternatives.

If society were to regress to such an apocalyptic environment, I think that any logical vegan would admit that all bets are off.

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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by AgentBlack » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:58 pm

does that mean no bacon? if so screw it, i'm deep throat'n my shotgun. cause a world without bacon ain't worth living in...
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by Agent » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:13 am

jtnieman wrote:Typically vegan only believe in abstaining from their perceived "crime" or "negative action" because it's not NECESSARY in our society where we have less violent and "cruel" alternatives.

If society were to regress to such an apocalyptic environment, I think that any logical vegan would admit that all bets are off.
Agreed for most vegetarians and vegans, though some are much stricter (not going to debate that one).

If you are talking about ZPAW rather than just a short-term SHTF situation, everyone will have to cut down on meat. People like to think they'll be hunting and eating meat every day, but meat used to be a luxury and would become one again without the modern system of massive feedlots and distribution. Vegetarians/vegans can prep according to their needs, but in a long term situation, everyone will have to get used to a lot less meat.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by LowKey » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:49 am

Agent wrote:
jtnieman wrote:Typically vegan only believe in abstaining from their perceived "crime" or "negative action" because it's not NECESSARY in our society where we have less violent and "cruel" alternatives.

If society were to regress to such an apocalyptic environment, I think that any logical vegan would admit that all bets are off.
Agreed for most vegetarians and vegans, though some are much stricter (not going to debate that one).

If you are talking about ZPAW rather than just a short-term SHTF situation, everyone will have to cut down on meat. People like to think they'll be hunting and eating meat every day, but meat used to be a luxury and would become one again without the modern system of massive feedlots and distribution. Vegetarians/vegans can prep according to their needs, but in a long term situation, everyone will have to get used to a lot less meat.
Unless you live along a seacoast or other large body of water. Seafood anyone? :wink:
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There is good argument that eating meat may be a major factor involved for evolving higher intelligence. Aside from the increased protein in the diet which is beneficial for developing brains, there is also the added complexity of problem solving required to obtain the meat. After all, how much intellectual does it take to sneak up on a blade of grass?
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by dukman » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:06 am

I think some of the hard core vegans and vegetarians might actually be a little better off in the first couple years into a PAW than the rest of the population. They already know a lot about the different herbs and edible plants. And since they are used to that kind of diet, they may be less likely to experience the hunger pains of those who would never think of eating a dandelion.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by LowKey » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:15 am

dukman wrote:I think some of the hard core vegans and vegetarians might actually be a little better off in the first couple years into a PAW than the rest of the population. They already know a lot about the different herbs and edible plants. And since they are used to that kind of diet, they may be less likely to experience the hunger pains of those who would never think of eating a dandelion.
Not so much, I'd imagine.
Most of them buy their food at the store rather than forage for them. They are also primarily buying and eating farmed produce....domesticated plants. The wild ancestors of those plants often do not look the same, nor do they always grow to the same size or level of productivity. Compare carrots to wild carrots as an example. Add in the competition of local wildlife that already eats these plants on a regular basis and the wild edible plants may not be quite the source of calories you think it will be.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by Jacob Creutzfeldt » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:00 am

There's plenty of vegan food that's a lot easier to store than meat. So let me turn the question around: how do you expect to get meat?

I suppose vegans will adapt and eat what's available. Just as anyone else in the PAW has to do.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by Towanda » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:11 am

Whether you are vegetarian/vegan or not (full disclosure: I am vegetarian), it's always a good idea to learn about the edible plants and at least a couple of edible fungi in your AO. Meat is more difficult to come by than many people think, especially if you are trying to conserve ammo, and you can meet your nutritional needs with plants if you know what you are doing. Think about it: how often was Les Stroud successful in catching meat without a firearm?

I don't want this thread to turn into a meat eater vs. vegetarian debate. If you want to discuss vegetarianism with me, I will be happy to do so via PM. If I get enough PMs, I'll start my own vegetarian thread.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by LowKey » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:36 am

Jacob Creutzfeldt wrote:. So let me turn the question around: how do you expect to get meat?
Gill nets for fish
Conibear traps for small game
baited fishing hooks for birds
and my hands or any other improvised means for insects.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by Nexy » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:12 pm

It depends on why someone is a vegan or vegetarian. I'd like to think that if push came to shove, I'd kill it, skin it and eat it if that was what was needed to survive. Not sure how well I'd handle it initially, the idea of eating meat is repulsive (veggie for over a decade) but when it came down to it, I think I'd manage. Also I keep a lot of pasta, soya protein, tinned veg etc at home, so if I was bugging in I'd be alright (for a while at least). I used to fish when I was a kid, I presume it'd come back to me.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by JTNieman » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:53 pm

Nexy wrote:It depends on why someone is a vegan or vegetarian. I'd like to think that if push came to shove, I'd kill it, skin it and eat it if that was what was needed to survive. Not sure how well I'd handle it initially, the idea of eating meat is repulsive (veggie for over a decade) but when it came down to it, I think I'd manage. Also I keep a lot of pasta, soya protein, tinned veg etc at home, so if I was bugging in I'd be alright (for a while at least). I used to fish when I was a kid, I presume it'd come back to me.

That Discovery Channel show "The Colony" had a vegetarian. The 'professor' guy with the wild white beard and hair. When their food came down to nothing, and shit was getting tight... he fell off the wagon... for rat. lol. The shared some rat meat. Then he ate some cat food that was tuna based later on. When shit hits the fan, and you're dizzy and faint and lack energy... I think any sane person will recognize that society is not the same, and the rules need to accommodate the new society. The professor thought that was funny. I think he said something about having been a vegetarian for over 30 years at that point, but I'm not confident I remember that right. May have been 13, not 30... it was a significant chunk of time, anyways.

I can't honestly think of a single reason someone would stay vegetarian. Maybe I can't remember all the reasons I've heard regarding vegetarian/vegan lifestyles, but even if it's just "I don't -like- meat and fish" then.. well.. too damned, bad, it's death or eat something that might not taste nice.

Now, as to how could I -get- meat? Well, I really don't foresee that being a problem. I've hunted a good bit, and if I was in a situation where it was life or death, I think I'd be quite all right. With a one-week deer season, I've managed to have meat for months. With rationing and hunting at will, salting/curing/whatever, I'm pretty sure I could manage protein intake. Unless I had good storage capabilities, I'd probably shy away from deer, and go to squirrels and rabbits, more, birds, if I got some more practice in... any small mammals, though, the better.

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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by LowKey » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:04 am

As a counter question to "How will you get meat?" I'd like to ask, "How will you find edible plants in sufficient quantity in the winter?"
Living in Florida maybe not so much of a problem.
Living in Minnesota I imagine their might be some issues.
Heck, even Kansas might present a problem come wintertime if you didn't have enough food stored for the winter.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by bonanacrom » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:04 am

It's true that finding food for many would be a daily struggle once the stored food starts to go away. As to hunting and trapping ? There are a lot of things in that one. Your location is a huge one, some places will have better luck than others. How good you are at it is another one. I started hunting and trapping around the age of 8. Most of the ways I had been taught is crap and if I had to survive that way I'd die in not to long a time. I studied and learned through trial and error and even had a animal control company that had me hunting and trapping on a daily basis for years. If you know what your doing and know where the animals your going after are at it's easy but time consuming. I can use a map and know what animals are likely to be in the differant ares, the same can't be said for where things grow. Fish and meat will be something I will have. The trick will be finding people that have the green growy things to trade with.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by bookshop » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:48 am

After 11 years of being Vegan I don't think I could keep meat down if I wanted/needed to. If it came down to it, I'd probably make an attempt...

My moral objection is not to the murder itself but to the torture that precedes it. No hatred of hunters, but Big Mac eaters or full of fail.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by Towanda » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:08 am

bookshop wrote:After 11 years of being Vegan I don't think I could keep meat down if I wanted/needed to. If it came down to it, I'd probably make an attempt...

My moral objection is not to the murder itself but to the torture that precedes it. No hatred of hunters, but Big Mac eaters or full of fail.
You'd have to start with very small amounts to get your gut to begin producing the necessary enzymes again.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by ninja-elbow » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:59 pm

I've asked this question to many of the veggies (and vegans) in my social circle since it may be that my social circle becomes my team in a really bad scenerio. Majority of them said meat is an option over hunger and starvation. I've still prepped for it and have some veggie options on hand incase I want to kick some of it down or help a fellow.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by Y.T. » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:24 pm

It seems to me that most vegetarians and vegans are actually going to be better suited to SHTF type of situations because they don't eat most of the things that would be difficult to come by or difficult to preserve. Such as beef, pork, poultry, eggs, cheese and other dairy products. Unless you live in the magic land of bountiful mammals and non-stop refrigeration without electricity, I see meat and similar products being a rarity in a SHTF situation. It requires a plentiful source, a means of preservation during transportation or preparation, and often a means of refrigeration (which requires electricity).

In addition, many vegetarians and vegans have already had a great deal of practice of eating in a healthy and nutritious manner without meat, as well as in preparing a much wider range of meals utilizing grains, legumes and vegetables. Aside from some soups and instant foods that contain beef or chicken flavorings, they aren't very much affected. The only issue I can see for them is if they have to resort to MREs or Mountain House meals, both of which have most meals including meat. Traveling to smaller towns can be difficult, but restaurants and relief centers are most likely to run out of the popular items first in the PAW (dairy, beef and chicken) leaving food they'd normally eat anyway.

Another benefit for these groups is that unlike meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans are continually expected to make sacrifices and be flexible to the dietary demands of others (meat eaters) because most people view meat as the "right" way. Ask any vegetarian and they'll tell you that it's very common to be expected to conform to the eating habits of meat eaters when dining out or at dinners (forcibly eating food that they either highly object to or will make them physically ill), while it's extremely rare for the situation to be reversed (meat eater expected to simply not eat something). In other words, respect is not a 2-way street so those of the vegetarian and vegan persuasion often get shafted. So most vegetarians I know are already well versed in having to be flexible with their meals.

Finally, many people can have window box or backyard gardens to allow them to provide at least some food for themselves. While supporting livestock for food requires a sizable amount of land. Again, vegetarians and vegans come out on top because they can regularly grow their own food to help sustain them when SHTF.

Vegans may have a greater challenge because they have to avoid all animal products, which includes the hidden and harder to avoid things like gelatin, bone meal and flavorings. Some dyes even have ingredients from animal products. So that can make their selections much harder and require more adaption.

As I see it, it's the die-hard meat eaters that are screwed. ;) They're the ones who are going to be freaking out without their burgers and chicken, complaining about the protein substitutes, going through a far more radical change of diet and having to experience the totally foreign concept of flexibility. They'll be experiencing the situation as something "lost", while vegetarians and vegans can proceed pretty much as normal.

ETA, DISCLAIMER:
The thoughts above are in no way advocating one style of eating over another or attempting to convince anyone to switch sides. My post was just an exercise in analyzing the situation. I really don't care what you eat. Don't go getting panties in a wad over how meat is tasty and delicious or whatever. ;) All food will be hard to come by when SHTF, but some foods will present more of a challenge than others. And some groups will be more easily able to adapt than others, depending on the situation.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by Jamie » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:40 pm

I am an opportunistic omnivore, with strongly carnivorous leanings...in a PAW, I would miss meat in the quantities to which I've grown accustomed, but would happily subsist on whatever proteins and fat comes my way...

I think that people who refuse to eat available protein and fat in whatever form it presents itself will suffer greatly in the early days of a PAW...

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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by Chef » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:57 pm

nfa wrote:I am an opportunistic omnivore, with strongly carnivorous leanings...in a PAW, I would miss meat in the quantities to which I've grown accustomed, but would happily subsist on whatever proteins and fat comes my way...

I think that people who refuse to eat available protein and fat in whatever form it presents itself will suffer greatly in the early days of a PAW...

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Pigs, goats and cows can magically transmute things like grass, garbage, and tree bark that humans cannot eat into delicious, edible food. You don't have to actively cultivate grass, garbage, or tree bark, which saves a lot of time and energy. No amount of vegecentric evangelizing or amino acid juggling can do that.

That being said, if you don't eat meat, prep accordingly and you'll have a lot less to worry about. And if you do eat meat, you don't have to have a pound of it at every meal.
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by Y.T. » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:05 pm

nfa wrote:I think that people who refuse to eat available protein and fat in whatever form it presents itself will suffer greatly in the early days of a PAW...
that's pretty much how I see it as well, for those who have ideological problems with one kind or another.

Though again, I do see most vegetarians who abstain from meat for personal ethical reasons adjusting just fine. As has been mentioned, that group is opposed to certain practices that are used in modern and mass-production techniques (health, cruelty, or both) -- techniques which won't be available in the PAW anyway, so that ethical issue is lifted for them. Vegans will likely have a harder adjustment, but for some the underlying principle is the same.

I think it will be a greater problem for those vegetarians and vegans who get ill from eating meat, whether due to genetic digestive problems or due to a temporarily lost ability to digest it (as bookshop and Towanda touched on). To me this like asking how will anyone with a food allergy deal with a PAW. If eating something makes you ill, then obviously you don't want to worsen your health and weaken your body by doing so. Some vegetarians will be able to gradually build up the necessary digestive enzymes if meat is the only available protein source. Others will have to manage, the same way that those with peanut allergies will have to manage.

Everyone has challenges of some sort. I really can't see the PAW being any harder on veggie folks than on any other group, including meat eaters. There isn't an "OH NOES!!!!" situation. ;)
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by JTNieman » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:05 pm

Y.T. wrote:It seems to me that most vegetarians and vegans are actually going to be better suited to SHTF type of situations because they don't eat most of the things that would be difficult to come by or difficult to preserve. Such as beef, pork, poultry, eggs, cheese and other dairy products. Unless you live in the magic land of bountiful mammals and non-stop refrigeration without electricity, I see meat and similar products being a rarity in a SHTF situation. It requires a plentiful source, a means of preservation during transportation or preparation, and often a means of refrigeration (which requires electricity).
Vegans don't eat things that are hard to preserve? What's the shelf life on fruits and veggies without preservation? Not to mention the fact that many animals come in meal-size portions already. :)

Also, the VAST majority of people here -do- live in the magic land of bountiful mammals. You can't walk 5 minutes without seeing a mammal to eat (no, I'm not alluding to cannibalism) let alone a reptile, amphibian, or bird. Mollusks, crustaceans, and fish add to that pool as well.

I don't know how you can think meat suffers any more challenges to preservation than fruits, veggies, and starches do, though. It all boils down to one thing: without proper education in preservation (whether it be canning or salting/curing) you will not survive a dry spell. I see meat equally as vulnerable to that as non-meat.
Y.T. wrote: In addition, many vegetarians and vegans have already had a great deal of practice of eating in a healthy and nutritious manner without meat, as well as in preparing a much wider range of meals utilizing grains, legumes and vegetables. Aside from some soups and instant foods that contain beef or chicken flavorings, they aren't very much affected. The only issue I can see for them is if they have to resort to MREs or Mountain House meals, both of which have most meals including meat.
All veggies and vegans I've known take vitamin supplements and benefit -greatly- from the pharmaceutical and chemical additive industry in a great many ways. That's just the ones I know. I know some are much more naturalist than these folks, so maybe they have a magic cure. However, I do not know any veggie/vegan that has a green thumb. BIG downer there! You can have all the good eating habits in the world, but when TSHTF, it amounts to not EVEN a hill of protein rich fatty beans because you can't grow that stuff anyways, unless you prepare yourself for that.
Y.T. wrote: Another benefit for these groups is that unlike meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans are continually expected to make sacrifices and be flexible to the dietary demands of others (meat eaters) because most people view meat as the "right" way. Ask any vegetarian and they'll tell you that it's very common to be expected to conform to the eating habits of meat eaters when dining out or at dinners (forcibly eating food that they either highly object to or will make them physically ill), while it's extremely rare for the situation to be reversed (meat eater expected to simply not eat something). In other words, respect is not a 2-way street so those of the vegetarian and vegan persuasion often get shafted. So most vegetarians I know are already well versed in having to be flexible with their meals.
While I sympathize (if not am skeptical of...) for this hypothetical blight they endure, I find no logical reason why this at all applies to the topic, and why this somehow grants a trump over omnivorous folks.
Y.T. wrote: Finally, many people can have window box or backyard gardens to allow them to provide at least some food for themselves. While supporting livestock for food requires a sizable amount of land. Again, vegetarians and vegans come out on top because they can regularly grow their own food to help sustain them when SHTF.
Domesticated animals seems to only be but a very, very, very, very short and recent occurrence in our species time line as the top provider of meat in our diets. You seem to think that somehow all vegetarians and vegans have the skills and know-how to grow food, but you somehow assume that all omnivores magically DON'T have the knowledge to procure their own meat, if need be? Very unfair. Very biased.
Y.T. wrote: As I see it, it's the die-hard meat eaters that are screwed. ;) They're the ones who are going to be freaking out without their burgers and chicken, complaining about the protein substitutes, going through a far more radical change of diet and having to experience the totally foreign concept of flexibility. They'll be experiencing the situation as something "lost", while vegetarians and vegans can proceed pretty much as normal.
lmfao @ the bolded section

Yes, because us die-hard meat eaters couldn't possibly know how to make a burger from pasture to plate. No way, no how, right? You're being incredibly insensitively unfair and biased, here. I for one, as a die hard meat eater, love me some vegetarian foods. In fact I love nothing MORE than an excellently prepared hunk of rare meat, whether it be seared pepper-crusted sashimi-rare tuna steak, or a medium-rare thick cut slab of top sirloin. However, at some restaurants, and occasionally at home, there's times when I want to have a favorite vegetarian dish, be it a veggie-rich lasagna or a portabella and pesto panini with grilled onions and basil.

Good luck to the vegetarians finding the right mushrooms to eat without killing themselves, too.

Truth is, without the proper education and PREP, those vegetarians and vegans are JUST AS FUCKED as EVERYONE else who doesn't prep. Gardens are no more sustainable and farmable than an animal herd! To allow vegetarian and vegan readers to be sucked into a false sense of security such as this is a gigantic disservice to what this site is about.

If we start believing "Don't worry about food prep, just be a vegan or vegetarian!" then we're all doomed.

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Towanda
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by Towanda » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:20 pm

jtnieman wrote: All veggies and vegans I've known take vitamin supplements and benefit -greatly- from the pharmaceutical and chemical additive industry in a great many ways. That's just the ones I know. I know some are much more naturalist than these folks, so maybe they have a magic cure. However, I do not know any veggie/vegan that has a green thumb. BIG downer there! You can have all the good eating habits in the world, but when TSHTF, it amounts to not EVEN a hill of protein rich fatty beans because you can't grow that stuff anyways, unless you prepare yourself for that.
There are even meat-eaters who can't get through the day without taking twelvity-five supplements and tinctures and what-have-yous found in the local health food store. It's not a practice limited to vegetarians and vegans. There are plenty of vegetarians and vegans who don't take a boatload of supplements with their breakfast.

There are no, repeat no, nutrients found in meat that cannot be obtained from other sources.
jtnieman wrote: Good luck to the vegetarians finding the right mushrooms to eat without killing themselves, too.
Learning a few edible mushrooms that are not easily mistaken for poisonous ones in your AO is not difficult.
jtnieman wrote: If we start believing "Don't worry about food prep, just be a vegan or vegetarian!" then we're all doomed.
I don't think anyone here is advocating that.
Holding a grudge is like swallowing poison and expecting someone else to die.

Image
SMoAF wrote:You could have your very own Trunk SMoAF. That'd HAVE to have some practical value for you.

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JTNieman
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Re: What about the vegans?

Post by JTNieman » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:22 pm

Towanda wrote:
jtnieman wrote: Good luck to the vegetarians finding the right mushrooms to eat without killing themselves, too.
Learning a few edible mushrooms that are not easily mistaken for poisonous ones in your AO is not difficult.
That was exactly my point. Everyone is fucked if they don't take a little time to -learn- how to get by on their selected diet.

I'm not saying that ignorant meat favored are LESS doomed than ignorant veggie favored... I'm saying they're both EQUALLY fucked, and to favor one over the other is blind, illogical, and -dangerous-

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