EMP car?

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EMP car?

Post by CCWman » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:37 pm

Anyone now of vehicles that resist EMP from high altitude nukes meant to disrupt our nations power grid? Are any military surplus trucks or HUMMERS EMP proof or resistant?

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Re: EMP car?

Post by NT2C » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:12 pm

Pre-90s Chevy or GMC truck with a diesel and a mechanical injector pump, or something similar.

My old 1979 Saab with mechanical fuel injection and mechanical ignition would also likely be a decent candidate.
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Re: EMP car?

Post by flybynight » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:03 pm

double post :shock: :ohdear: :lol:
Last edited by flybynight on Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EMP car?

Post by flybynight » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:03 pm

It's hard to find definitive facts on this. I always heard a pre computer controlled vehicle and to be sure keep an extra alternator, starter, coil, points , spark plug wires, plugs and voltage regulator in a sealed metal container. with none of the parts touching metal. There can't be any holes or cracks in the seal.
EMP has been my bogey man for years. I have modern vehicles, but I also keep a 1970's Pick up,. A 1960 diesel tractor. And a old unknown vintage pull start mini bike. And I have friends with horses. Lots and lots of horses. Bicycle is not a bad idea also.

ETAImage

The weird shaped purple portion on the map. I've read no amount of shielding will help. All electronics are toast

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_e ... etic_pulse

In July 1962, the US carried out the Starfish Prime test, exploding a 1.44 megaton bomb 400 kilometres (250 mi; 1,300,000 ft) above the mid-Pacific Ocean. This demonstrated that the effects of a high-altitude nuclear explosion were much larger than had been previously calculated. Starfish Prime made those effects known to the public by causing electrical damage in Hawaii, about 1,445 kilometres (898 mi) away from the detonation point, knocking out about 300 streetlights, setting off numerous burglar alarms and damaging a microwave link.[8]
Starfish Prime was the first success in the series of United States high-altitude nuclear tests in 1962 known as Operation Fishbowl. Subsequent tests gathered more data on the high-altitude EMP phenomenon.
The Bluegill Triple Prime and Kingfish high-altitude nuclear tests of October and November 1962 in Operation Fishbowl provided data that was clear enough to enable physicists to accurately identify the physical mechanisms behind the electromagnetic pulses.[9]
The EMP damage of the Starfish Prime test was quickly repaired due, in part, to the fact that the EMP over Hawaii was relatively weak compared to what could be produced with a more intense pulse, and in part due to the relative ruggedness (compared to today)[10] of Hawaii's electrical and electronic infrastructure in 1962.[11]
The relatively small magnitude of the Starfish Prime EMP in Hawaii (about 5.6 kilovolts/metre) and the relatively small amount of damage (for example, only one to three percent of streetlights extinguished)[12] led some scientists to believe, in the early days of EMP research, that the problem might not be significant. Later calculations[11] showed that if the Starfish Prime warhead had been detonated over the northern continental United States, the magnitude of the EMP would have been much larger (22 to 30 kV/m) because of the greater strength of the Earth's magnetic field over the United States, as well as its different orientation at high latitudes. These calculations, combined with the accelerating reliance on EMP-sensitive microelectronics, heightened awareness that EMP could be a significant problem


My fear of this is that a enemy of our country would perceive of this as a bloodless attack. Where they do not actually kill anyone with the bomb. But just sit back and watch us tear each other apart trying to stay alive . I had a dream once of Russia seeding nuclear bombs in space disguised as space junk ( booster stages ect) with stolen American plutonium to throw off suspicion . And then rolling in few weeks later with tank columns disguised as humanitarian aid as starving major cites willing capitulating to Russian rule in exchange for food and other goods. :crazy:
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Re: EMP car?

Post by Zed Hunter » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:18 pm

The faraday box should be grounded too.

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Re: EMP car?

Post by boskone » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:36 pm

Most vehicles. There've been some feasibility studies in lab environments, up to the upper ranges of field intensity expected from known nuclear devices, and most vehicles either just hiccoughed after the pulse or just needed to restart. Vehicles survive lightning strikes, which are far more intense than a nuclear EMP (3MV/m, vs 50kV/m).

There was some noise about car-disabling EMP devices a few years back, but as I've seen not a damned thing since I tend to assume they were less than successful.

That said, I would still keep a mechanically simple, readily repairable vehicle around. While your F150 Raptor may be fully functional after a few replaced fuses, having a vehicle that doesn't require 2 surgeons and a small crane to replace the spark plugs would have other advantages. I lean towards old Jeeps or the new Mohindra Roxor, but I'll freely admit that my penchant for old Jeeps probably influences my thinking.

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Re: EMP car?

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:04 pm

Mercedes Benz 240D. This explains why better than I ever could.

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Re: EMP car?

Post by CrossCut » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:09 am

What boskone said. 2012 study by the Academy of Military Transportation, Tianjin, China. Study on Effects of High-Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse to Engine Electronic Control System, only the preview is available for free.

The Chinglish conclusion from the study:
Through the simulation of the HEMP, a laboratory test has been designed and carried out, and the
influence of the engine ECS under HEMP has been analyzed. The research indicated that the engine
ECS is susceptibility to the HEMP, the main damage mode is soft and transiency damage, it can
make the control signal confusion and can even result in the suspension of work, but it can not
make permanent hard damage to the ECS, and there are no evidence to show that the NEMP can
result in an accumulation damage to the tested engine ECS.
They don't mention the vehicle model or electronic control system (ECS) specifically, but the test monitored the ignition, rotation (cam/crankshaft position?), and fuel injection signals from the ECS while subjected to fast rise (<10ns) pulses with field strengths from 57 to 105 kV/m. No mention of any shielding used. At lower field strengths there were distortions ('jitters') in the ignition and rotation (square wave) signals, and additional spikes ('triggers') on the injection signal. At higher field strengths (>90 kV/m) all 3 signals disappeared ('vanished') for 180ms, which I assume is long enough to cause the engine to stall, but there was no permanent damage to the ECS even when each was pulsed twice. In short, and I've seen this conclusion elsewhere as well, a running vehicle might stall but it should restart OK. Whether the radio and other electronic accessories would still work is a crapshoot I guess. Or, it's just a Communist plot to lull us into a false sense of security.

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Re: EMP car?

Post by flybynight » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:31 am

CrossCut wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:09 am
What boskone said. 2012 study by the Academy of Military Transportation, Tianjin, China. Study on Effects of High-Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse to Engine Electronic Control System, only the preview is available for free.

The Chinglish conclusion from the study:
Through the simulation of the HEMP, a laboratory test has been designed and carried out, and the
influence of the engine ECS under HEMP has been analyzed. The research indicated that the engine
ECS is susceptibility to the HEMP, the main damage mode is soft and transiency damage, it can
make the control signal confusion and can even result in the suspension of work, but it can not
make permanent hard damage to the ECS, and there are no evidence to show that the NEMP can
result in an accumulation damage to the tested engine ECS.
They don't mention the vehicle model or electronic control system (ECS) specifically, but the test monitored the ignition, rotation (cam/crankshaft position?), and fuel injection signals from the ECS while subjected to fast rise (<10ns) pulses with field strengths from 57 to 105 kV/m. No mention of any shielding used. At lower field strengths there were distortions ('jitters') in the ignition and rotation (square wave) signals, and additional spikes ('triggers') on the injection signal. At higher field strengths (>90 kV/m) all 3 signals disappeared ('vanished') for 180ms, which I assume is long enough to cause the engine to stall, but there was no permanent damage to the ECS even when each was pulsed twice. In short, and I've seen this conclusion elsewhere as well, a running vehicle might stall but it should restart OK. Whether the radio and other electronic accessories would still work is a crapshoot I guess. Or, it's just a Communist plot to lull us into a false sense of security.
In my searches, all the American studies are still TOP SECRET. Sooo there's that. If anyone has a link to American studies I would love to read it.
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Re: EMP car?

Post by Wormjello » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 pm

Do y’all think a carbureted VW with points would work? The fuel pumps on non EFI models were a mechanical diaphragm type.
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Re: EMP car?

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:10 pm

Cars over 25 years old can be imported to the U.S. without crash test data, or emissions. Europe has heaps of relatively low mileage diesel SUVs like this 1988 Toyota Land Cruiser LJ73 with only 155,3342 miles for $3,100.

Go to www.mobile.de pick the British flag from the pulldown menu and search to your heart's content.

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Re: EMP car?

Post by flybynight » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:26 pm

Wormjello wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 pm
Do y’all think a carbureted VW with points would work? The fuel pumps on non EFI models were a mechanical diaphragm type.
Yea , that's supposed to be the most robust of the gas engines. Carb/mechanical points. Just keep extra electrical parts in a shielded location.
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Re: EMP car?

Post by aikorob » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:13 am

this may be a little bit of thread drift, but referencing Boskone's reply above about lightning---
conventional wisdom is do not get out of your car while it is energized---from lightning or perhaps fallen wires--because you will cause a path to ground. If the charge is immediately routed to ground, would that make any difference? All of my vehicle have some sort of static dissipative strap to ground it----would this help in an EMP situation?
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Re: EMP car?

Post by NT2C » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:35 am

aikorob wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:13 am
If the charge is immediately routed to ground, would that make any difference? All of my vehicle have some sort of static dissipative strap to ground it----would this help in an EMP situation?
Your car is sitting on four very nice carbon-infused electrodes. You're good. 8-)
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Re: EMP car?

Post by flybynight » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:58 am

aikorob wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:13 am
this may be a little bit of thread drift, but referencing Boskone's reply above about lightning---
conventional wisdom is do not get out of your car while it is energized---from lightning or perhaps fallen wires--because you will cause a path to ground. If the charge is immediately routed to ground, would that make any difference? All of my vehicle have some sort of static dissipative strap to ground it----would this help in an EMP situation?
NO
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Re: EMP car?

Post by wolf_from_wv » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:09 am

CrossCut wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:09 am
What boskone said. 2012 study by the Academy of Military Transportation, Tianjin, China. Study on Effects of High-Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse to Engine Electronic Control System, only the preview is available for free.
Unless you are on ResearchGate and try to request the full-text...

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rol_System
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Re: EMP car?

Post by The Twizzler » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:38 pm

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but unless you live way out there in the wild, this is probably a waste of time. If you have a vehicle that runs and most vehicles don't run then it's going to get commandeered. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. So the local, state, federal, or gangland ruler is gonna take it. You can cry, scream, or try to keep it but you will get over run. The best to hope for would be if it's for a good reason and maybe they let you remain the driver. I guess an example might be for an ambulance in your local area.
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Re: EMP car?

Post by NT2C » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:46 pm

The Twizzler wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:38 pm
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but unless you live way out there in the wild, this is probably a waste of time. If you have a vehicle that runs and most vehicles don't run then it's going to get commandeered. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. So the local, state, federal, or gangland ruler is gonna take it. You can cry, scream, or try to keep it but you will get over run. The best to hope for would be if it's for a good reason and maybe they let you remain the driver. I guess an example might be for an ambulance in your local area.
You hush now with all your facts and logic and shit... :crazy:
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Re: EMP car?

Post by flybynight » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:38 am

NT2C wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:46 pm
The Twizzler wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:38 pm
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but unless you live way out there in the wild, this is probably a waste of time. If you have a vehicle that runs and most vehicles don't run then it's going to get commandeered. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. So the local, state, federal, or gangland ruler is gonna take it. You can cry, scream, or try to keep it but you will get over run. The best to hope for would be if it's for a good reason and maybe they let you remain the driver. I guess an example might be for an ambulance in your local area.
You hush now with all your facts and logic and shit... :crazy:


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Re: EMP car?

Post by Stercutus » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:05 am

The Twizzler wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:38 pm
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but unless you live way out there in the wild, this is probably a waste of time. If you have a vehicle that runs and most vehicles don't run then it's going to get commandeered. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. So the local, state, federal, or gangland ruler is gonna take it. You can cry, scream, or try to keep it but you will get over run. The best to hope for would be if it's for a good reason and maybe they let you remain the driver. I guess an example might be for an ambulance in your local area.
Yeah, it is actually written in to our emergency operations plan. I am supposed to GTA you, give a quick badge flip and announce in an authoritative voice "police emergency". While you are sorting out your feelings on this matter I'm peeling out with your ride. Just make sure you don't have any kids in the back seat.
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Re: EMP car?

Post by Abuhin » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:02 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:05 am
The Twizzler wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:38 pm
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but unless you live way out there in the wild, this is probably a waste of time. If you have a vehicle that runs and most vehicles don't run then it's going to get commandeered. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. So the local, state, federal, or gangland ruler is gonna take it. You can cry, scream, or try to keep it but you will get over run. The best to hope for would be if it's for a good reason and maybe they let you remain the driver. I guess an example might be for an ambulance in your local area.
Yeah, it is actually written in to our emergency operations plan. I am supposed to GTA you, give a quick badge flip and announce in an authoritative voice "police emergency". While you are sorting out your feelings on this matter I'm peeling out with your ride. Just make sure you don't have any kids in the back seat.
Huh. Figures.
Anything in the policy on compensating the driver, or is that just something the lawyers & union will handle. You're probably not working where I live, but it'd be nice to get a vague idea in general.

Had a work friend who joined the Sheriff's department. Maybe I should reconnect and discuss this stuff. Pre-establish that only he gets to drive my truck for official duty, or something like that?
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Re: EMP car?

Post by raptor » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:25 pm

Abuhin wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:02 pm
Stercutus wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:05 am
The Twizzler wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:38 pm
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but unless you live way out there in the wild, this is probably a waste of time. If you have a vehicle that runs and most vehicles don't run then it's going to get commandeered. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. So the local, state, federal, or gangland ruler is gonna take it. You can cry, scream, or try to keep it but you will get over run. The best to hope for would be if it's for a good reason and maybe they let you remain the driver. I guess an example might be for an ambulance in your local area.
Yeah, it is actually written in to our emergency operations plan. I am supposed to GTA you, give a quick badge flip and announce in an authoritative voice "police emergency". While you are sorting out your feelings on this matter I'm peeling out with your ride. Just make sure you don't have any kids in the back seat.
Huh. Figures.
Anything in the policy on compensating the driver, or is that just something the lawyers & union will handle. You're probably not working where I live, but it'd be nice to get a vague idea in general.
If it is anything like the aftermath of Katrina do not hold your breath.

I had drums of diesel (yes plural) confiscated commandeered requisitioned (yeah thats the word) and the response to my question of "Do I get a receipt for that?" was a look that made me say "Nevermind!".

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Re: EMP car?

Post by Stercutus » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:16 pm

I had drums of diesel (yes plural) confiscated commandeered requisitioned (yeah thats the word) and the response to my question of "Do I get a receipt for that?" was a look that made me say "Nevermind!".
It is NOLA, I can't believe they waited until after an emergency to jack your stuff.

My earlier comments were of course sarcasm for those wondering. I am aware what TV and the movies do and that does appear to be the way, but that isn't how it works.

The 5th Amendment allows the State to take property for the public good with just compensation. Like all rights it is one that you must guard jealously. If anyone shows up to take your stuff they should have either a court order or an emergency order signed by either a judge or the appropriate authority. Who the appropriate authority is will vary greatly based upon the laws of your state. Make them sign a receipt for your property. If it is the PAW for reals you will never get your stuff back. If it isn't then you should go ahead and make a claim as soon as the emergency has ended.

Best bet? They can't take what they don't know about.
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Re: EMP car?

Post by raptor » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:21 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:16 pm

It is NOLA, I can't believe they waited until after an emergency to jack your stuff.
It is not that they waited; it is just that I normally do not drive around with 55 gallon drums of diesel.
The opportunity did not present itself earlier.

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