preppers choice for Antibiotics?

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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by DarkAxel » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:16 pm

gundogs wrote:
Odd that he would give you prescrption antibiotics when no symptoms were present to warrant their use.
Not odd at all. I have acid reflux, so the Prevacid doesn't go to waste.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by procyon » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:34 am

shrapnel wrote:They make prepared filter papers soaked in known amounts of various antibiotics. It's sort of a... process, you know? Like, first you have to culture your germ....(snipped a huge block)
Not necessarily OT, but it isn't necessarily all that hard to accomplish - if you know what you are doing. But I do have a background in Chem E and lots of lab time.
I have done this in a 'do it yourself' mode on several occasions.
Preparing sterile mediums isn't terribly hard if you have the supplies. And the same incubator I use for eggs will also run micro samples.
A quick gram stain and look under the scope will give me a fair idea what I am looking at if I can get a successful culture, and I put together lots of atb 'dots' for all the meds I keep for my livestock years back.
It has saved me a fair amount of change, and a bunch of animals, when I start losing livestock and am not sure just what is killing them. But if I have chickens that are wheezing, or cattle with sores, it makes treatment far more productive.

But understand that it may not address a root cause. Like chronic lung infections from CA, or chronic skin infections from thyroid deficiency, etc.

And if you know how to do this, then you know how. If you don't - go to someone who does. You could just as easily make a problem worse by killing off all the organisms that are competing with the pathogen and them exacerbating the disease. If you don't know what you are messing with, don't screw with it.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by shrapnel » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:53 pm

procyon wrote:
shrapnel wrote:They make prepared filter papers soaked in known amounts of various antibiotics. It's sort of a... process, you know? Like, first you have to culture your germ....(snipped a huge block)
Not necessarily OT, but it isn't necessarily all that hard to accomplish - if you know what you are doing. But I do have a background in Chem E and lots of lab time.
I have done this in a 'do it yourself' mode on several occasions.
Preparing sterile mediums isn't terribly hard if you have the supplies. And the same incubator I use for eggs will also run micro samples.
A quick gram stain and look under the scope will give me a fair idea what I am looking at if I can get a successful culture, and I put together lots of atb 'dots' for all the meds I keep for my livestock years back.
It has saved me a fair amount of change, and a bunch of animals, when I start losing livestock and am not sure just what is killing them. But if I have chickens that are wheezing, or cattle with sores, it makes treatment far more productive.

But understand that it may not address a root cause. Like chronic lung infections from CA, or chronic skin infections from thyroid deficiency, etc.

And if you know how to do this, then you know how. If you don't - go to someone who does. You could just as easily make a problem worse by killing off all the organisms that are competing with the pathogen and them exacerbating the disease. If you don't know what you are messing with, don't screw with it.
It is for sure doable. My point was just that it's kinda more involved than just plating whatever you scrape off of your sick person and throwing whatever chemicals at it in whatever concentrations.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by JackBauer » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:01 pm

http://armageddonmedicine.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Read up.
I'm no medical professional but I choose to have some antibiotics on hand if things go south and access to professional health care becomes impossible.
After a lot of research I bought several types from Calvet supply. I also bought some medical books including the Sanford guide to Antimicrobial therapy which discusses ailments, antibiotic types and dosing.
The most important thing to do with prepping is to discuss contigencies and plans with your primary physician (and pediatrician if you have kids)
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by Doc_45ACP » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:43 pm

Later tonight, I will post a quick overview of which antibiotics I recommend for a "well-stocked" med kit and why. I don't have time to do it now from work, so you'll all have to bear with me...

I will suggest this: when selecting a good medical reference, I believe that most physician-level medical books are too in depth for the average person to read. Also, nothing against nurses, however the average nursing text isn't in-depth enough for the type of medicine you'll want. (Nursing, by it's nature, is supporting a physician, NOT acting as a primary caregiver. If you are prepping for SHTF, YOU will be the primary caregiver." I suggest you purchase a reference for physician assistants or nurse practitioners. These books give you nuts and bolts of assessment and diagnosing, without the hard core science background of physician references.

You can usually pick them up used on Amazon for cheap. Don't worry about buying older editions, the bulk of the info doesn't change much!
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by fringe_wolf » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:51 pm

Ya'll might want to take heed to this article. The implications are damn near apocalyptic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... elves.html

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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by ineffableone » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:54 pm

Anyone notice on the last episode of Walking Dead Hershel suggesting they get antibiotics from the veterinary school?

Sounds like WD has been listening to the talk from preppers about this subject.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by dallas » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:52 pm

fringe_wolf wrote:Ya'll might want to take heed to this article. The implications are damn near apocalyptic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... elves.html
I see multi drug resistant infections all the time. Too many docs over prescribe antibiotics for cases that do not need them. We don't need people medicating themselves with fish meds and making things worse.

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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by CrossCut » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:19 am

Doc_45ACP wrote:Later tonight, I will post a quick overview of which antibiotics I recommend for a "well-stocked" med kit and why.
Looking forward to it, thanks. I've read many suggested ABX lists, but always interested in learning the reasoning behind those selected. I stock at least one variety from each of the classes available in oral form, you never know. Anyone remember the cipro shortage following the anthrax letters/crop duster scare in 2001 (or the potassium iodate shortage after Fukishima, or the current ammo shortages)? Get them while they're easily available and relatively cheap, it may already be getting too late for doxycycline and erythromycin in tablet/capsule form. A few years ago 100 (100mg) doxy capsules was about $17, the company I buy from lists it at $70 for 30 capsules today. Can't even find erythro, except in powder form, anymore - and azithro as the macrolide replacement is over $2 a tablet.

But beyond a list, what I'd find more beneficial is a professional and impartial discussion on ABX use in a PAW from an individual risk/benefit perspective. No consultations or referrals, no hospitalization, no lab testing for susceptibility / resistance - and no greater good beyond the concern of a family member with (or at high risk for) a bacterial infection. That has to change the rules on prophylactic or empiric use of ABX some, no?

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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by royalflush » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:42 pm

do some reading on gram + and gram- bacterial infections and where they commonly occur.
the main thing that differentiates the major AB groups are their effectiveness against G+ or G- bacterias. there are several other factors that increase the efficacy w/in those groups, so this is just the simple version...
ex. most intestinal infections are going to be gram - infections and most external (skin) infections are going to be G+. this is not always the case, but if you are unable to culture the bacteria and identify it- you're just going to have to go on the most common's.

If you have no f'ing idea and it's serious- like in an PAW scenario where medical care isn't available- hit the patient w/ a dose of 2 antibiotics: like penicillin (or one of it's cousins- effective against g+ bacteria, +clauvonic acid (clauvamox) for some bacteria whom are beta-lactamase resistant) and and aminoglycoside (some potential side effects, but does a good job with most g- bacterias.) or cephalosporins (also good w/ G- bacteria, but there are 30+ different cephalosporins in 4 catagories (iirc) so you have to know a little more about what youre doing. that being said cepha's (gen 4 i think) are the choice for pseudomonas infections (common open wound infections).

regarding someone's comment on pneumonia earlier- unless you have diagnostic tools- treat w/ ab's. macrolides make a good option (z pak and it's cousins) are great for respiratory issues. usually G+ bacterial (staph and strep are going to be two major G+ bacteria)

severe GI diarrhea- quinilones (end in oxacin) if bacterial or nitrofurins if you just drank out of a creek the day before (protazoans)

thing to note about tetracyclines (including doxy) is that they are primarilly for intracellular organisms- like ones you would contract from insect vectors, and chylamidia


This was a pretty unorganized undetailed explaination, but if you have no interest in memorizing ab's and their action, then just do this.
when you get sick (or wife/kids/family/friends) find out what their symptoms were and what they were given. at most doctors offices they will start you on an anti-biotic before the culture comes back based off their best guess and most common findings (empirical data). get more of those drugs (ask dentist, md or veterinarian) and tell them what you want them for and they might give you an Rx. write on the label- give for sore throat/cough/diarrhea/skin infection- whatever... and that takes a lot of the guess work out of it. some AB's compete w/ each other, so don't just blindly throw the kitchen sink at a patient

all of this is in the PAW of course, if professional medical help is available, seek it!
Also remember, most of this shit is SELF LIMITING in HEALTHY/non-immunocompromised middle aged adults!

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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by royalflush » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:51 pm

ineffableone wrote:Anyone notice on the last episode of Walking Dead Hershel suggesting they get antibiotics from the veterinary school?

Sounds like WD has been listening to the talk from preppers about this subject.
it's funny though- there is no veterinary school where they mentioned (college park)- the closest one is either Auburn or UGA- a 1hr drive doing 80mph either way....
There is fundamentally no difference between mds and dvms other than what they have memorized. the physiologic and pathologic processes are similar in all species. some pathogens effect different species and do not effect others. some treatments are ineffective or contraindicated in certain species. But, understanding the principals of medicine and even more so-surgery are no different. an MD might not know off the top of his head how to treat a cow for pneumonia, but it would take VERY little effort for him/her to get the information they need to understand the disease and treatment since they have spent years understanding disease processes. same goes for veterinarians understanding and treating human diseases.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by fred.greek » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:46 am

If I read the document at the link correctly, it would seem that fish antibiotics, a popular aspect of “prepper” lore, will as of this coming January require all to go to a veterinarian and get a prescription to make a purchase.

http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/dev ... 482106.htm


Pre-new law, do you know anyone who could make a recommendation of product and dose to “stock up”, assuming four mature fish in our tank?

A sample source:
https://www.jefferspet.com/categories/m ... mal/fish-1


The lady at the youtube link appears to argue the new regulation has the potential to dramatically impact farmers, even cattle owners, if they have to get individual prescriptions to treat each animal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkPl0SZ ... e=youtu.be

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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by Slugg » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:20 am

fred.greek wrote:If I read the document at the link correctly, it would seem that fish antibiotics, a popular aspect of “prepper” lore, will as of this coming January require all to go to a veterinarian and get a prescription to make a purchase.

http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/dev ... 482106.htm


Pre-new law, do you know anyone who could make a recommendation of product and dose to “stock up”, assuming four mature fish in our tank?

A sample source:
https://www.jefferspet.com/categories/m ... mal/fish-1


The lady at the youtube link appears to argue the new regulation has the potential to dramatically impact farmers, even cattle owners, if they have to get individual prescriptions to treat each animal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkPl0SZ ... e=youtu.be
Having a small hobby farm we tend to keep antibiotics on hand. Luckily we haven't had to use any yet. Without getting too political on this forum this is another obstacle for the hobby farmers. There are groups out there that feel all animals should not be owned by humans, they used to threaten and physically destroy property and people. More recently they wised up and went to the politicians to make things difficult. Find the right veterinarian and they will right you a script if you show them you are knowledgeable enough. It's legal as long as the vet knows the animals exist and you aren't running illegal stuff like dog fighting rings or dirt road horse races.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by ineffableone » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:51 am

Not sure if that new FDA reg effects the antibiotics commonly used by preppers to stock up. If you note that none of the listed ones that will require a prescription include Fish Mox or Fish flex etc...

The regulation seems to be oriented more toward mammal antibiotics rather than fish and bird ones. I did a bunch of searching online and did not find any clear statement saying this effects fish and bird antibiotics. As well as not one seller of fish and bird antibiotics is saying that their products will require a prescription starting in 2017. This of course does not 100% prove that these meds won't be regulated soon, but I think it likely that it is just hype and scare rather than a serious worry in regards to preppers not being able to access these cheap antibiotic sources.

Now for farmers who need them for livestock, it might be a new added extra burden and cost. However considering the over use of antibiotics in livestock, it might actually be a highly needed step to stop the creation of drug resistant strains. Much of livestock is fed antibiotics they don't actually need, due to it just being cheaper and easier than providing decent living conditions to keep the animals healthy or just as a precaution rather than a reaction to actual illness.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by ineffableone » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:19 pm

Since no one responded since my last post not sure how many noticed that comment.

I have found further info that shows it does not effect fish and bird antibiotics, it is only for food producing animals.



So like I had said previously it wont effect fish and bird antibiotics which is the ones we tend to stock up on.

Now for the homesteader, yes this might cause some extra burden to care for their animals. Though like the prepper work around of getting pet meds, the homesteader could likely figure out they can get pet meds too.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by ineffableone » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:40 pm

Well I received an email form the vet med supplier I get my antibiotics from, and they clearly stated what the above video had said. The rule is only for food animals and it does not effect their sales of fish and bird antibiotics in any way. They even discussed having a conversation with the lab that makes their antibiotics who also said nothing to worry about and the meds will still be prescription free.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by Close_enough » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:42 pm

gundogs wrote: Odd that he would give you prescrption antibiotics when no symptoms were present to warrant their use.
As I understand it, carrying your own antibiotics, syringes, and other medical paraphernalia is not uncommon for people who will be visiting developing countries or areas with suspect medical standards (1980's Romania for example).

As for Fishflex (Keflex), Fishflox (Cipro), and others: I had asked the question on another board and was told it was generally a bad idea. Of course. in a lose/lose situation, given the choice between a bad idea that might kill you and an infection that will kill you....

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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by ineffableone » Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:37 pm

Close_enough wrote:
gundogs wrote: Odd that he would give you prescrption antibiotics when no symptoms were present to warrant their use.
As I understand it, carrying your own antibiotics, syringes, and other medical paraphernalia is not uncommon for people who will be visiting developing countries or areas with suspect medical standards (1980's Romania for example).

As for Fishflex (Keflex), Fishflox (Cipro), and others: I had asked the question on another board and was told it was generally a bad idea. Of course. in a lose/lose situation, given the choice between a bad idea that might kill you and an infection that will kill you....
Not sure who gave you the info saying fish antibiotics were a bad idea. They are exactly the same meds you get from human pharmacies. Made in the same labs, with the same ingredients, labeled with the same info. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the fish or bird antibiotics. Who ever told you it was a bad idea had bad information. The big reason bird and fish antibiotics (rather than other vet meds) are recommended to preppers, is because they come in the same dosage as human requirements.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by majorhavoc » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:30 pm

Close_enough wrote: As for Fishflex (Keflex), Fishflox (Cipro), and others: I had asked the question on another board and was told it was generally a bad idea. Of course. in a lose/lose situation, given the choice between a bad idea that might kill you and an infection that will kill you....
Was that the forum discussion board for the Association of Licensed Pharmacists of America by any chance?

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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by JayceSlayn » Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:29 pm

I can't say whether or not they are the only supplier you'll find, but I did check out the supply chain for one of our vet med suppliers and found the fish antibiotics came from Thomas Labs (http://www.thomaslabs.com/category/fish-antibiotics), and that they are USP labeled. After receiving some, we also compared their pill imprints with those published in Medscape (http://reference.medscape.com/pill-identifier), and they match with those indicated there (implicitly: for human use). From what I understand, they are taken from the same manufacturing line that makes human antibiotics, and relabeled for fish use. Further anecdotally: we used them on an infection with our fish, and they worked as expected.
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by VXMerlinXV » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:09 pm

Interesting article I found on the Tactical Medicine Collective

Seven Antibiotics to Stockpile and Why, by Cynthia J. Koelker, MD

Assuming your personal physician will help you stockpile antibiotics for TEOTWAWKI, which should you request? Is there a logical reason to have amoxicillin on hand rather than doxycycline?

Here’s what I would suggest and why.
No antibiotic is effective against every type of microbe. Certain ones will kill aerobic bacteria, others are used for anaerobic bacteria, still others are effective against resistant strains, and certain people are allergic to or intolerant of various antibiotics. The following are all generics, running about $10 for about a month’s treatment.
• Amoxicillin is the old standby for most respiratory infections (probably most of which are viral and don’t even require antibiotics). It is excellent for strep throat and some strains of pneumococcal bacteria. It is also safe for children and pregnant women. It is well-tolerated, causing little stomach distress or diarrhea. The drawbacks are that some people are truly allergic, and many bacteria have developed resistance to amoxicillin (especially staph) through overuse among both humans and animals. Anyone truly allergic to amoxicillin should substitute erythromycin or another antibiotic.
• Cephalexin works on most of the same bacteria as amoxicillin, plus is stronger against Staph aureus, which mostly causes skin infections. It rarely works against MRSA (resistant staph), however. It is also well-tolerated in children and is safe in pregnant women, causing few side-effects. Like any antibiotic, it carries the risk of allergy. People who develop anaphylaxis (a life-threatening allergy) with amoxicillin probably should not take cephalexin, as there is a good 10% cross-reactivity between the two. If I had to choose between stockpiling amoxicillin or cephalexin, I would choose cephalexin. The combination drug, amoxicillin-clavulanate (Augmentin), is as strong against staph, but more expensive and harder on the stomach.
• Ciprofloxacin is useful for anthrax (which I’ve never seen), urinary tract and prostate infections (which are very common), and many forms of pneumonia and bronchitis. One of the more important and selective uses of ciprofloxacin is in combination with metronidazole for diverticulitis. This potentially life-threatening infection usually (or at least often) requires two antibiotics to resolve. (Levaquin and Avelox are a bit stronger than ciprofloxacin and could be substituted for this, but are much more expensive.) Ciprofloxacin is not used in women or children unless the benefit clearly outweighs the risk, although the risk of joint damage (seen in animals) appears minimal. Taking ciprofloxacin by mouth is nearly as effective as taking by IV.
• Doxycycline is useful in penicillin/amoxicillin-allergic adults for respiratory infections and some urinary/prostate infections. It is avoided in children and pregnant women unless the benefit clearly outweighs the risk (of permanent tooth discoloration in children under the age of 8). Doxycycline is sometimes effective against penicillin-resistant bacteria. If I were limited to either doxycycline or erythromycin, I would choose erythromycin for stockpile.
• Erythromycin is useful for most of the same infections amoxicillin is used for, and thus can be substituted in penicillin-allergic patients. However, erythromycin tends to cause the intestine to contract, often causing cramps or diarrhea. (This property is sometimes used to help patients with conditions that impair intestinal motility.) It can be safely used in children and pregnant women.
• Metronidazole is an unusual antibiotic used for very specific infections. It is aimed primarily at anaerobic bacteria, primarily those found in the intestine. It is also used for certain STDs, including trichomonas. As mentioned above, it is very useful in combination with ciprofloxacin (or SMZ-TMP, below) for diverticulitis. It is the only inexpensive antibiotic effective for Clostridium difficile (c. diff, or antibiotic-related) colitis. It is also effective against certain amoeba. This drug is not used in children unless the benefit clearly outweighs the risk.
• SMZ-TMP is a combination drug of sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim. The latter antibiotic is used mainly for urinary infections. The sulfa component is effective against many respiratory bacteria and most urinary pathogens, although ciprofloxacin is somewhat stronger. The main reason to stockpile SMZ-TMP is due to its effectiveness against resistant staph (MRSA).
Of course, only the most understanding fellow-prepper physician is likely to prescribe all these in quantity. The list can be narrowed a bit, by dropping doxycycline (since erythromycin covers most microbes that doxycycline would kill, and can be used in young children) and amoxicillin (because cephalexin covers most amoxicillin-sensitive bacteria and has the benefit of effectiveness against staph aureus).

My top five antibiotics would therefore be:
• Cephalexin
• Ciprofloxacin
• Erythromycin
• Metronidazole
• SMZ-TMP
Of these, SMZ-TMP and ciprofloxacin have the most duplicate coverage, as do cephalexin and erythromycin. Since the intolerance of erythromycin is much higher than is allergy to cephalexin, I would favor cephalexin. Ciprofloxacin is stronger for intra-abdominal infections than SMZ-TMP, and is less likely to develop resistance. Although its use in children is a bit of a concern due to the question of joint pain (although this is rare), I would favor ciprofloxacin over than SMZ-TMP, even though SMZ-TMP is effective against MRSA. However, when the use of antibiotics is severely curtailed, antibiotic resistance will also decrease, and therefore MRSA will become less of a concern.

Therefore, my top three antibiotics to stockpile would be:
• Cephalexin
• Ciprofloxacin
• Metronidazole
Using these three alone or in combination would cover around 90% of the infections physicians commonly encounter, as well as several less-likely threats (including anthrax and C. diff).

About The Author: Cynthia J. Koelker, MD, SurvivalBlog's Medical Editor is the author of the book 101 Ways to Save Money on Health Care, which explains how to treat over 30 common medical conditions economically, and includes dozens of sections on treating yourself. She also hosts the popular medical prepping blog at www.ArmageddonMedicine.net.
My posts are my opinion, and do not reflect the standing or policy of any group I may be associated with. Nothing typed here should be considered medical advice, or permission from myself or any governing body to perform medical intervention. If this is a medical emergency, please get off your computer and dial the appropriate local response number.

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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by teotwaki » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:24 pm

My adventures and pictures are on my blog http://suntothenorth.blogspot.com

CrossCut
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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by CrossCut » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:46 am

RE: Doc Cindy's top 7/5/3 list, Doxycycline makes it into my family's top 3, partly due of a family member with a pen allergy but also because we live in a tick-infested area. In addition to coverage for anthrax it also covers a number of other likely biological warfare agents (plague, Q-fever, tularemia, typhus, cholera), although weaponized strains would likely be resistant. With metronidazole also good coverage for human and animal bites. For use in children under age 8, consider:


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Re: preppers choice for Antibiotics?

Post by roscoe » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:15 am

I am late to this thread, but if you are flying solo on the antibiotics, you need this little book - The Emergency Residents' Association Antibiotic Guide. It give adult and pediatric dosages for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. choice antibiotics for virtually every infection. It is a compact, slim, paperback book, but very worth it :

https://www.amazon.com/EMRA-Antibiotic- ... 929854455/

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