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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 12:00 pm 
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I think you mean inertial, not initial, and yes, that can degrade pretty quickly, and requires sensitive instrumentation that can easily go out of calibration (worked on such systems in the Navy). And GPS modules are at the $10 level these days. I just bought a couple of these to use in various projects I'm working on: http://us.banggood.com/Wholesale-Warehouse-1-5Hz-VK2828U7G5LF-TTL-Ublox-GPS-Module-With-Antenna-wp-Usa-965540.html


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 12:08 pm 
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Yes I did mean inertial. Spell check prefers initial.

This is what I meant when I said $100.

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Honeywell made and I think still makes an amazing inertial system that cost a small fortune. The last one I saw was in a parted out G-II next to the now useless Omega receiver.

That said, this handheld GPS (an old 2008 unit without WAAS) will be better for navigation than the Honeywell units (assuming they were working properly and there were no position inputs from any sources) after less than an hour.


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 8:25 pm 
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KJ4VOV wrote:
(worked on such systems in the Navy)


You an old SINS tech too? I ran a Mk3 Mod7 back in the late '70s - early 80's. Back in the days when GPS was nuclear powered!


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 8:36 pm 
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I'm amazed at how many of my girlfriends have no clue about basic directions and how to use maps. I grew up in the country and I have a "mountain man" dad who made me learn those skills as a teen. My husband has always valued non-technology lifeskills, so it's something we've been teaching our kids as well.


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:50 pm 
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cv66er wrote:
KJ4VOV wrote:
(worked on such systems in the Navy)


You an old SINS tech too? I ran a Mk3 Mod7 back in the late '70s - early 80's. Back in the days when GPS was nuclear powered!

Navy Gunner's Mate in the early 70s. Some of the toys we played with used inertial guidance.


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 5:57 am 
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KJ4VOV wrote:
Radio_man wrote:
I have no doubt most military's could deploy a unmanned rocket with small satellite payload at a moments notice if needed .

I disagree but, be that as it may, the other half of the problem is that we have very few spares. The last time I read up on this we had two, with one more being built. At the same time, they were estimating that we'd need ten replacements over the next few years (I read this in 2014) due to satellites reaching their "end of life", and that if more than four or five were to fail we simply could not replace them and the system would start losing accuracy.


Or private enterprise , I am sure there is no shortage if needed.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... e-launches


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 1:47 pm 
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designerchick wrote:
I'm amazed at how many of my girlfriends have no clue about basic directions and how to use maps. I grew up in the country and I have a "mountain man" dad who made me learn those skills as a teen. My husband has always valued non-technology lifeskills, so it's something we've been teaching our kids as well.


Lack of map skills is in no way limited to girls. I believe men are just less likely to admit it.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:24 pm 
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I am a very experienced navigator on land, sea and air. I sailed for two years (pre-GPS) using mainly a sextant, RDF and of course compass/chart as my primary navigation tools. Not bragging just saying... :D

I am amazed how fast those skills got rusty and how dependent I have become on GPS for all of my navigation needs. It is so easy and convenient to look at the screen and get course, speed, heading, course/distance/time to destination. No need for an E6B, parallel rulers, dividers or even a compass if you have a working GPS.

My advice is to turn off the GPS often (when safe to do so) and practice those manual skills for when not if the GPS is not functioning.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:36 pm 
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Radio_man wrote:
KJ4VOV wrote:
Radio_man wrote:
I have no doubt most military's could deploy a unmanned rocket with small satellite payload at a moments notice if needed .

I disagree but, be that as it may, the other half of the problem is that we have very few spares. The last time I read up on this we had two, with one more being built. At the same time, they were estimating that we'd need ten replacements over the next few years (I read this in 2014) due to satellites reaching their "end of life", and that if more than four or five were to fail we simply could not replace them and the system would start losing accuracy.


Or private enterprise , I am sure there is no shortage if needed.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... e-launches

Sure, if you can plan several years ahead. We're talking about immediate need though, not a couple years down the road and after a long contract negotiation.


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:42 pm 
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raptor wrote:
I am a very experienced navigator on land, sea and air. I sailed for two years (pre-GPS) using mainly a sextant, RDF and of course compass/chart as my primary navigation tools. Not bragging just saying... :D

I am amazed how fast those skills got rusty and how dependent I have become on GPS for all of my navigation needs. It is so easy and convenient to look at the screen and get course, speed, heading, course/distance/time to destination. No need for an E6B, parallel rulers, dividers or even a compass if you have a working GPS.

My advice is to turn off the GPS often (when safe to do so) and practice those manual skills for when not if the GPS is not functioning.

Navigation skills are like any other skill, they deteriorate if not honed periodically. I used to speak, read and write fluent French, now I'm barely able to count to 20. I used to do component level circuit board repairs, and could glance at components like resistors and chokes and know their values. Now I have a difficult time reciting the color codes at all, and can only thanks to the old mnemonics we were taught. (Though I'm getting back into building things, so I'm rehoning those skills.)


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:45 pm 
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raptor wrote:

My advice is to turn off the GPS often (when safe to do so) and practice those manual skills for when not if the GPS is not functioning.



Sailing is bit more difficult than land navigation. There are lots of terrain features and landmarks to go by on land for example. To practice land navigation skills well you should practice on different kinds of terrain.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:28 pm 
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raptor wrote:

My advice is to turn off the GPS often (when safe to do so) and practice those manual skills for when not if the GPS is not functioning.


I used compass for years before I had a GPS. And I always wondered just how accurate I was marching my compass route - did I drift way right then way left? I never got lost and always made my plan, but when I got the GPS I put it in the pocket and used the compass as normal just too see how my route drifted off the bearing, rather than just turning it off. I was surprised how well my compass route matched the bearing. I turn it off to save the batteries. The GPS can be used as a good training tool for compass work given that it can show how well you managed to make the route you actually stepped match the bearing required. Doing this, that is, integrating the route and the bearing given the topology and vegetation, is where experience and practice is required, especially when judging distance.

Some GPS compass screens show you how far to the left or to the right you are from the bearing line. I call this drift. It will always happen given that there are always obstacles - trees, rocks, little ponds etc., that prevent one from following the bearing line perfectly.

Early model GPS units did not have digital compasses. The GPS could determine direction only when moving. But that movement had to be rather quick - above 3km an hour; if not going that fast the bearing line would fluctuate widely making it not possible to use the gps for my step-by-step bearing. In thick bush, going up a hill, with a heavy pack, one could not go fast enough for the gps to give a reliable vector (though this did not affect is ability to give a (relatively) accurate position).

So, I quickly realized that the GPS is not a replacement for the compass. The digital compasses on the newer models work better than the older models, but for maintaining the bearing step-by-step I still think a good quality, liquid filled compass is still the best option. Besides, for a multi-day trip navigating for hours and hours each day one would need an army of batteries for the GPS; that's impractical. And the gps, being electric, is prone to failure, more so than my compass (though even this is not invincible).

I think the best reason for having a gps is getting a position fix rather than maintaining a vector. Triangulation in thick bush, thick fog or at night is near impossible. Seeing distance travelled is nice to have too; that is easier than counting paces in thick terrain.

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 6:02 pm 
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http://gpsworld.com/iridium-launches-al ... t-service/




"Iridium Communications Inc. has introduced its Satellite Time and Location (STL) service, an alternative or complement to traditional indoor and outdoor location-based technologies, and declared it ready for use. STL’s position, navigation and timing (PNT) technology is deployed through Iridium’s 66 cross-linked, low-earth orbit satellite constellation.

Through Iridium satellites and in GNSS receivers, STL technology can work to verify GPS, GLONASS, Galileo and other navigation services, and also can serve as an alternative for those services when GPS signals are degraded or unavailable. STL also can provide an alternative source of time when testing GPS signals."


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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 7:59 pm 
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Compass, Chart and Watch?

I figure most folk who have to navigate for a living can do this.

For those that don't, Congrats, google ain't going to find a way around that traffic jam for you today.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:59 am 
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Herkemer wrote:
Compass, Chart and Watch?


I hate it when teaching people using maps and compasses

'where are we?'
"find your landmarks and see if you can find them on the map"
'there are none'
" what's that on the map?"
'a mountain range'
"what's that over there?"
'umm'
"Its a FREAKING MOUNTAIN RANGE"

some people I just give up on, seriously, look at a map when you go for a drive and you learn the landmarks very quickly

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:08 pm 
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This is a duplicate topic so i am merging it with the first one.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:36 pm 
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I've never used GPS in the field. I only have one for the car ( and nowadays a phone so I guess that qualifies as a field unit. Just never used it as such ) which mostly is used to find stores and stuff or the fastest way. I always have used map and compass in the field. Never had a problem. I'm lucky that way I guess. Wherever I go, there I am.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:41 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
Strangely the organization that would be least effected would be the US military. The military trains their leaders on how to navigate without GPS, few other organizations do that these days. While there are GPS guided munitions there are lots of other munitions out there. It would screw the military up, just not as bad as say a large shipping firm.

Have to agree!
Quite an exaggerated story for counterintelligence purposes, I guess. The Military uses inertial navigation systems (INS) as well as GPS, for their weapons and their aircraft. Some weapon systems have Exceptionally accurate INS.

During one of the outdoor graduation ceremonies I attended at Fort Rucker 35 years ago, I saw two UH-60s break through low cloud cover above the parade field using INS only navigation. Very impressive!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:38 am 
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I was thinking of this thread today.

I was reading Winnie the Pooh to my three year old and the back page of the book had a map of the Hundred Acre Wood. So I started playing with my kid pointing out land marks and asking him how to follow the paths to various character's houses. He did really well. I think it will be a bit before we move on to a compass and pace counting, but it is a start.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:08 pm 
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Maybe we'll find out, at least for planes: http://gizmodo.com/faa-warns-of-gps-outages-this-month-during-mysterious-t-1780866590


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:55 pm 
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taipan821 wrote:
Herkemer wrote:
Compass, Chart and Watch?


I hate it when teaching people using maps and compasses

'where are we?'
"find your landmarks and see if you can find them on the map"
'there are none'
" what's that on the map?"
'a mountain range'
"what's that over there?"
'umm'
"Its a FREAKING MOUNTAIN RANGE"

some people I just give up on, seriously, look at a map when you go for a drive and you learn the landmarks very quickly


The term used for this type of navigation is called "terrain association". If you have a good accurate map and a way to measure it and put map scale to real scale you can navigate pretty easy. If you are able to visualize the significant points on the map and can shoot an azimuth your winning, if you can shoot a back azimuth as well your almost perfect, and if your terrain will allow and you have a good pace count you are in the best position to move freely accurately and with the least amount of effort. I got my ding dong step daughter through the WLC course first try and now she teaches land nav to the aspiring NCO's going to the WLC course.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:54 am 
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In reference to the thread's main topic, you have a chance to experience some problems with your GPS

A Notam (PDF)

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices ... visory.pdf

is warning operators of “all aircraft relying on GPS” of widespread GPS outages starting Tuesday throughout the Southwest and especially southern California. Although the FAA doesn’t go into specifics the military is testing something that can disrupt GPS over a very wide area, centered on China Lake, California, likely China Lake Naval Weapons Center. On Tuesday, June 7, the FAA is warning that GPS signals down to 50 feet AGL could be “unreliable or unavailable” between 9:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. local time over a radius of 253 nautical miles, which includes the L.A. Basin, Bay area and Las Vegas. There will be further outages of similar potential duration June 9, 21,23, 28 and 30. The circles expand with altitude and at 40,000 feet the interference will affect a circular area of the Southwest 950 nautical miles across, reaching central Oregon, Colorado and New Mexico.



More:
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/GP ... 365-1.html

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:40 am 
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I have a friend of mine, a mathematician and fellow ham, who has been working the last few years on a DoD project "out west" which he won't discuss. His particular specialty, as a mathematician, has to do with navigation and the plotting of positions. He helped me a great deal when I was trying to understand how "sea level" and heaight above sea level is calculated, given the effects of waves and tides. I guess his project is in the testing phase now. :awesome:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:25 am 
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Lots of non-mathematicians screw with spoofing GPS L1 signals.

https://media.defcon.org/DEF%20CON%2023 ... oofing.pdf

At DEFCON 23 Huang Lin and Yan Qing showed it’s possible to create a low-cost GPS signal emulator with cheap,
off-the-shelf components and open source code. With no specialized GPS knowledge and a budget of less than $1,000
they used available research and code from the internet to program a Software Defined Radio that would work as a GPS
emulator. Lin and Qing used these tools to build up the structure of the GPS navigation messages and program the SDR
to download GPS satellite orbit information (called ephemeris data). With their home-made kit, they showed they were
able to take control of the GPS receivers of a variety of devices, including smartphones, a drone, and a car satellite navigation system.


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