What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by teotwaki » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:12 am

No testing phase for the math.....

The U.S. Navy has canceled plans to jam GPS signals in the vicinity of the China Lake, California, Naval Air Weapons Station. AOPA had raised concerns about the impact on civilian air traffic and the size of the affected area. The Navy did not reveal the cause of the cancellation, other than to say the reason was “internal.”

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https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... california
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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by NT2C » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:00 pm

teotwaki wrote:No testing phase for the math.....

The U.S. Navy has canceled plans to jam GPS signals in the vicinity of the China Lake, California, Naval Air Weapons Station. AOPA had raised concerns about the impact on civilian air traffic and the size of the affected area. The Navy did not reveal the cause of the cancellation, other than to say the reason was “internal.”

More:
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... california
Yeah, I just had lunch with my buddy and we discussed all this. According to him, there's been a lot of testing going on there for years, just this is the first time a NOTAM was issued.

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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by teotwaki » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:32 pm

For many years lots of folks have been performing tests on GPS jamming impacts, jamming devices, detection and countermeasures.

https://gps.mae.cornell.edu/Paper_C3_3_ ... _2011b.pdf

https://radionavlab.ae.utexas.edu/image ... _Mitch.pdf

http://www.gps-world.biz/index.php/news ... era-system

http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fu ... ry&id=5438


The Navy differed only by seeking to wipe out GPS reception for almost all of the whole west coast

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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by sheddi » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:36 pm

That's a shame :(

I recall hearing somewhere that the British police were getting trouble from car thieves using GPS & cellphone jammers to defeat high-end car security systems. They were going to take a bunch of them out to a military firing range and test them to see what their effective radius was.

For reasons related to the size of the UK, many of the larger military ranges are located in national parks.

I was imagining a whole lot of very lost tourists whenever they ran these tests ...
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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by sheddi » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:51 pm

On a related topic, most smartphones have built-in accelerometers and I see there are a couple of Android inertial navigation apps in the Google store. Unfortunately they seem to all be paid apps and I'm not currently bothered enough to buy one.

There is an app I've used for years and am happy to recommend called "GPS Status" which displays not only the status of your GPS - lat/lon/altitude, number of satellites, DOP/HDOP/VDOP, error etc - but also the readings from your phone's other sensors - magnetic compass, heading, acceleration, roll/pitch, velocity, temperature, light level, battery SOC and so on. There's a long list of sensors it can read but obviously it can only read them if your phone has them fitted!

(My old Xperia mini had a magnetic compass as well as GPS and accelerometers, but my new Moto E doesn't :( )
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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by teotwaki » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:55 pm

sheddi wrote:
That's a shame :(

I recall hearing somewhere that the British police were getting trouble from car thieves using GPS & cellphone jammers to defeat high-end car security systems. They were going to take a bunch of them out to a military firing range and test them to see what their effective radius was.

For reasons related to the size of the UK, many of the larger military ranges are located in national parks.

I was imagining a whole lot of very lost tourists whenever they ran these tests ...

Researchers in the UK have been very busy addressing the GPS jamming issue. Here are two articles from the past:

http://gpsworld.com/chronos-releases-ha ... -detector/

http://www.chronos.co.uk/index.php/en/n ... era-system
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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by NoSeeUm » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:59 pm

Aikibiker wrote:A direct attack on the Master Control Station in Colorado springs by a terrorist group would probably take things offline for a while. The MCS is located on Peterson Air Force Base which also houses NorthCOM, so it is essentially unguarded against an attack. My old job was base security overseas. Most CONUS installations I have have horrible security if they have any at all. They are focused more on crime control and prevention then stopping terrorist attacks.

There are four Monitoring Stations that collect data from the satellites they can "see" forward that info to the MCS, which then makes adjustments and forwards them to the Ground Antennas, which are co-located with the Monitoring Stations. They are located in areas that are geographically isolated and difficult to get to. I am not sure if one of the monitoring stations could take over command and control for the GPS constellation, but it stands to reason that such a backup roll would be part of the system or at least something that could be implemented pretty quickly. The four monitoring stations are at Ascension Island, Cape Canaveral, Diego Garcia, and Kwajalein Atoll.
I believe there's actually 6 stations. And what they do is supply differential data to the GPS satellites. Each station can transmit to the satellites.
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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by Towanda » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:41 pm

One of my class projects when I was getting my technical writing degree was a short primer on how to use a topo map and baseplate compass.

I currently work for a transportation company and I'm dumbfounded at the drivers who can't get around town without a GPS. My boss has given me his blessing to organize a landmarks and route-finding class.
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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by raptor » Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:46 pm

Towanda wrote:One of my class projects when I was getting my technical writing degree was a short primer on how to use a topo map and baseplate compass.

I currently work for a transportation company and I'm dumbfounded at the drivers who can't get around town without a GPS. My boss has given me his blessing to organize a landmarks and route-finding class.

That is an excellent idea. Sometimes the GPS will route me through really stupid places or over seemingly silly routes.

I am always amazed when I get into a taxi in another city and say to the driver take to someplace obvious in that city...like the Empire State Building or the White House ... and have them say "where is that?". I never know if I am being gamed or if they really do not know.

I generally give them a smartass non-answer like "Do you want me to drive?" to see what they do (call dispatch and ask or just drive). :lol:


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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by andrewza » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:57 am

you know all my time at sea we never really used the GPS for navigation and in any war time setting other a few select cases like say Mine hunting we would turn of the GPS systems in any case.
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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by yale » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:15 am

Stercutus wrote:Strangely the organization that would be least effected would be the US military. The military trains their leaders on how to navigate without GPS, few other organizations do that these days.
Yeah, keep thinking that. Because the fact is the military is facing a problem with soldiers not getting that training and losing the skills needed to "go analog".
From- https://www.armytimes.com/story/militar ... /86005952/
Capt. Ronald Fletcher has met an officer candidate who couldn’t find north on a compass, a sergeant who couldn’t complete an inventory of equipment, and “far too many soldiers who couldn’t fire a weapon straight, let alone understand how the weapon functions.”
and
“These are basic things,” he said. “Land navigation, for instance. These are senior NCOs, but they don’t know it, they’re not familiar with it. I feel that’s something that’s completely lost in the Army.”

The problem is in the National Guard as well.

“If I took 10 E-4s and below and dropped them off in the middle of the woods with a map and compass, there’s no way they’re going to find their way out,” said a staff sergeant medic who asked to remain anonymous.
The recently revamped Best Warrior Competition forces competitors to rely on what Dailey calls “analog skills,” including land navigation with just a map and a compass.
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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by voyaginator » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:09 pm

Totally agree on how important it is to know how to use a compass.
I like my Brunton TruArc 3 Base Plate Compass - http://goo.gl/Kw9UDG
Here is a short and simple tutorial - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBhdI4sJWVY

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Re: What Would Happen If G.P.S. Failed?

Post by Stercutus » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:05 pm

If his medics are anything like the medics I used to have 15 years ago they would not be able to navigate their way out of a paper bag. All those others I can think of last generation contemporaries for them as well.
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