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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:28 pm 
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Marjory Wildcraft recently posted a video on this topic, and while it is likely preaching to the choir here on ZS, I felt it worth posting.



I will say I am of the opinion about guns that they are a tool just like a shovel or rake. Could you homestead without a shovel or rake? Sure you can, but it would be more difficult as you would need to work around the need for those tools. Similarly with guns, they are a tool. They can be used for hunting, for defense against wild animals, for ethical slaughter of livestock, and yes in the worst case scenario defense against other humans if for some reason things got that bad. Marjory's video was definitely discussing in the case of some sort of societal collapse were locals would feel the need to take food from others. Here on ZS we are prepping for something, so this is not news to use. But for many they don't think something like this will ever happen. In the middle is of course a medium where you consider this as possible but it is not your primary purpose for having a firearm. I think that would be the majority of folks with firearms, not taking it to any extreme. Having firearms for their normal use on a homestead of hunting, protection against wildlife, and ethically slaughtering livestock.

Marjory does bring up a good point though about the local folks and if they are of this raider mentality, that folks who might not normally own firearms might want to consider them. Of course a caveat to that is if you buy them to be sure to train on how to use them safely. Worse than not having a gun, is having one you don't know how to handle and use safely.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Yes, definitely preaching to the choir. I understand and respect anyone who chooses not to make firearms part of their preps. We all must do our own personal risk assessment and decide for ourselves exactly what we are preparing for. And of course there are those folks in live in countries that do not allow ownership of firearms (or where it's exceedingly difficult).

As you say: it's a tool; nothing more, nothing less. If it's appropriate for the tasks you have in mind, so be it.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:54 pm 
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a firearm clearly has its utility in a homestead or other situations.

But I'm asking this, sincerely, not as a gotcha question, looking at the best modern examples of social unrest, in the US: King riots in Los Angeles, post-Katrina New Orleans, Superstorm Sandy, 2014 Ferguson MO and 2015 Baltimore MD riots.

On the news I saw violence, I saw arson, I saw looting of stores, I saw insurance and contractor scams. I did not see or hear reports of private residents being broken into and looted for valuables or food.

Did I miss something? Was the unrest localized enough that people saw stores at easy targets? Were some of the neighborhood so poor that they knew the locals had nothing worth stealing.

Have we over estimated the threat to our homes. Is the U.S. so large and our infrastructure robust enough that we will never truly have that kind of social breakdown. Have we been condition by our pioneer mythos and Hollywood westerns to reach for the rifle over the hearth to defend kith and kin against marauding savages?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:19 pm 
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I can assure you post Katrina residences where looted.

I would answer that question with another. If you looked out your door and saw people rioting and burning things in the street what would you want to ensure the safety of your family. Distance is the obvious answer but assuming you could not leave what would you do to protect yourself and your family?

For most people that answer would be a firearm. If that is not your answer then that is your decision. What we always say is that everyone should have a means if self defense. That may or may not include a firearm.

Having a firearm provides you with a tool and options. If you believe you can do the job without that tool then do not use the tool. Furthermore not everyone is suited to all tools and if you do not know how to use a tool it is not likely to be used properly.

I come back to the simple rule of preparation. Always have a plan b and options. I truly do believe I will never need a fire extinguisher. Actually I hope they grow old and dusty from disuse. However I still have them and get tem inspected regularly because thay are part if a plan b.

I apply similar logic to the CCW I carry daily.

On the other hand I would categorically state that collecting fire arms and having a few dozen firearm is not preparation but rather gun collecting., a completely different activity.

Evan the Diplomat wrote:
Have we over estimated the threat to our homes. Is the U.S. so large and our infrastructure robust enough that we will never truly have that kind of social breakdown. Have we been condition by our pioneer mythos and Hollywood westerns to reach for the rifle over the hearth to defend kith and kin against marauding savages?


First point is that it does not require a massive breakdown in our world today to spark violence to such an extent that a reasonable person would fear for his life. A regional event like Sandy and Katrina show the disruption that can be caused by natural disasters. The Ferguson riots involved no breakdown of infrastructure, but rather a breakdown in civil order. An infrastructure failure like the Oroville Dam failure is not likely to find a need for a firearm.


Honestly I would hope your statement is an accurate assessment of our world today. That said hope is not a plan.

My $.02.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:03 pm 
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raptor wrote:
As for infrastructure being robust again all you have to do is look around to find areas in the US where that is not the case. If you ask people near the Oroville Dam I suspect that they would have a strong opinion in the matter.


Similarly if you asked the folks in Flint, or the many other areas where they have higher lead in their water than Flint does.

The US infrasctucture is far from robust, it is actually crumbling. Check out this report card on US infrastructure. http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/ Mostly getting D's. The few C's and one B doesn't make up for the majority of D's. And remember, that was from 2013. The 2017 report card is not going to be better, it is highly likely to be worse. I know bridges will be, as they have been cited as being rated poor over the last few years in numerious reports on the crumbling infrastructure in the US.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:
a firearm clearly has its utility in a homestead or other situations.

But I'm asking this, sincerely, not as a gotcha question, looking at the best modern examples of social unrest, in the US: King riots in Los Angeles, post-Katrina New Orleans, Superstorm Sandy, 2014 Ferguson MO and 2015 Baltimore MD riots.

On the news I saw violence, I saw arson, I saw looting of stores, I saw insurance and contractor scams. I did not see or hear reports of private residents being broken into and looted for valuables or food.

Did I miss something? Was the unrest localized enough that people saw stores at easy targets? Were some of the neighborhood so poor that they knew the locals had nothing worth stealing.

Have we over estimated the threat to our homes. Is the U.S. so large and our infrastructure robust enough that we will never truly have that kind of social breakdown. Have we been condition by our pioneer mythos and Hollywood westerns to reach for the rifle over the hearth to defend kith and kin against marauding savages?


As for your question if we are worried about threats to the home more than we should. The answer is depends on what you think is the likely problems you need to prep for.

If your only worried about at the biggest a Katrina or Sandy event. Then yes, they hype is bigger than the problem. While there were home invasions and looting in those cases, the majority was concentrated on businesses. Why? Because there was more opportunity in a business as well as less guilt. In collapse the social morality doesn't just stop immediately. There is a slow degradation as you get more desperate. My favorite PAW fiction "Earth Abides" discussed the main character's reluctance to break in the first door when he was trying to find out where everyone had gone. He knew the town was empty and something was distinctly not right. But he had trouble making himself bust the lock of that door the first time. Similarly looters will be able to justify to themselves "a business is insured, I am not hurting them" while they still know taking from a person is wrong.

Here is where things change though. If things continue past the Katrina or Sandy level, to be a more wide spread longer lasting event. Say the Cascadian Subduction Zone quake, which they say some areas could expect 3 months before help comes. Or a more national/international disaster like the Carrington event solar flare knocking out the electrical grid so no help is coming at all. As soon as the businesses are looted where are people going to get food and supplies they need? Eventually the morality question of taking from others will be tested, and many will fail and succumb to the temptation to do it.

What your seeing as it possibly not being needed, is we have not yet had a serious SHTF situation in the US yet. We have had minor regional SHTF, but the outside help and short duration have prevented the all out survival of SHTF craziness.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:29 pm 
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ineffableone wrote:
raptor wrote:
As for infrastructure being robust again all you have to do is look around to find areas in the US where that is not the case. If you ask people near the Oroville Dam I suspect that they would have a strong opinion in the matter.


Similarly if you asked the folks in Flint, or the many other areas where they have higher lead in their water than Flint does.

The US infrasctucture is far from robust, it is actually crumbling. Check out this report card on US infrastructure. http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/ Mostly getting D's. The few C's and one B doesn't make up for the majority of D's. And remember, that was from 2013. The 2017 report card is not going to be better, it is highly likely to be worse. I know bridges will be, as they have been cited as being rated poor over the last few years in numerious reports on the crumbling infrastructure in the US.

This is true.
That said I edited that post (before you posted the above quote) because after reading it I realized that IMO the need of a firearm for self defense is less tied to an infrastructure failure than it is to the probability of civil disorder. Civil disorder may result from causes other than an infrastructure failure.

A firearm would not stop the flood waters of the Oroville Dam, the NOLA and Sandy levee failures nor would it remove lead in the water in Flint. It would however be an appropriate preparation to deal with the lawless aftermath of Katrina and the Ferguson riots.

So I think we are all on the same page in that we all agree that a firearm is not the answer to every risk. You cannot eat or drink it and it may not (hopefully never) be needed. That said it is a tool and can be quite necessary in certain situations.

This is always an interesting discussion to me.

One other point. The need for a firearm for self defense may arise in normal day to day activities. The city in which many of us live can be a violent place full of people who seek to do us harm. The world does not have to end to find yourself needing a firearm for self defense.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:05 am 
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It's been a while so you could be forgiven for forgetting but during the Rodney King riots in LA the mob was going street to street looting until they made it to the Asian store district. Shop keepers and their family and friends armed themselves with rifles and were on the roofs of their stores abiding by the law but also defending their property. Not one store on this block was looted ( you can observe old media on youtube showing this). In Katrina some stayed behind and painted on their homes and businesses "You loot, we shoot" although the effectiveness was never measured I have to believe some criminals were dissuaded. Even police officers were filmed looting Walmart and some police officers were reported as unconstitutionally seizing weapons. Those that had there weapons seized were either arrested or funneled to the football stadium ( Astro Dome?). I used to live in Gulfport, MS which is not to far from New Orleans and it was known that the police force was very corrupt. A former police chief here in Nashville I believe testified to Congress to that effect.I wish I could remember his name but it eludes me. I don't mind if others don't want firearms in their homes but I sleep better each night knowing I have the capability to defend myself from harm.



Evan the Diplomat wrote:
a firearm clearly has its utility in a homestead or other situations.

But I'm asking this, sincerely, not as a gotcha question, looking at the best modern examples of social unrest, in the US: King riots in Los Angeles, post-Katrina New Orleans, Superstorm Sandy, 2014 Ferguson MO and 2015 Baltimore MD riots.

On the news I saw violence, I saw arson, I saw looting of stores, I saw insurance and contractor scams. I did not see or hear reports of private residents being broken into and looted for valuables or food.

Did I miss something? Was the unrest localized enough that people saw stores at easy targets? Were some of the neighborhood so poor that they knew the locals had nothing worth stealing.

Have we over estimated the threat to our homes. Is the U.S. so large and our infrastructure robust enough that we will never truly have that kind of social breakdown. Have we been condition by our pioneer mythos and Hollywood westerns to reach for the rifle over the hearth to defend kith and kin against marauding savages?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:00 am 
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The Twizzler wrote:
It's been a while so you could be forgiven for forgetting but during the Rodney King riots in LA the mob was going street to street looting until they made it to the Asian store district. Shop keepers and their family and friends armed themselves with rifles and were on the roofs of their stores abiding by the law but also defending their property. Not one store on this block was looted ( you can observe old media on youtube showing this). In Katrina some stayed behind and painted on their homes and businesses "You loot, we shoot" although the effectiveness was never measured I have to believe some criminals were dissuaded. Even police officers were filmed looting Walmart and some police officers were reported as unconstitutionally seizing weapons. Those that had there weapons seized were either arrested or funneled to the football stadium ( Astro Dome?). I used to live in Gulfport, MS which is not to far from New Orleans and it was known that the police force was very corrupt. A former police chief here in Nashville I believe testified to Congress to that effect.I wish I could remember his name but it eludes me. I don't mind if others don't want firearms in their homes but I sleep better each night knowing I have the capability to defend myself from harm.



Evan the Diplomat wrote:
a firearm clearly has its utility in a homestead or other situations.

But I'm asking this, sincerely, not as a gotcha question, looking at the best modern examples of social unrest, in the US: King riots in Los Angeles, post-Katrina New Orleans, Superstorm Sandy, 2014 Ferguson MO and 2015 Baltimore MD riots.

On the news I saw violence, I saw arson, I saw looting of stores, I saw insurance and contractor scams. I did not see or hear reports of private residents being broken into and looted for valuables or food.

Did I miss something? Was the unrest localized enough that people saw stores at easy targets? Were some of the neighborhood so poor that they knew the locals had nothing worth stealing.

Have we over estimated the threat to our homes. Is the U.S. so large and our infrastructure robust enough that we will never truly have that kind of social breakdown. Have we been condition by our pioneer mythos and Hollywood westerns to reach for the rifle over the hearth to defend kith and kin against marauding savages?


You have given the prime example, loot stores, yes, defended stores, yes, but nobody said"let's go to Brentwood" or Costa Mesa.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:
You have given the prime example, loot stores, yes, defended stores, yes, but nobody said"let's go to Brentwood" or Costa Mesa.



If you lived in Brentwood or Costa Mesa during the riots would you want the option of a firearm for self defense (or more likely would you instruct your security team to take extra precautions.)?

There is no wrong answer BTW, just different options and choices.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Getting back to the OP, and assuming that your homestead will be rural, you will need something for critter control, humane slaughter, and unfortunately, security. While a firearm does seem to be the best suited for it, there are options. Keeping in mind that agrarian society existed well before the gun, and while the arms of that age were not as effective as modern firearms, they were "good enough" to keep the human race going.

IRT the rest of the thread, there were stories of evacuees being preyed on as they were trying to get out of the way of Katrina. There will always be (insert polite term for sociopathic wastes of oxygen). You just have to balance the hazards of firearm ownership against the possibility of needing one.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:33 am 
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I type this post know I'm going to ruffle some feathers and maybe even cause some to lose their lunch. I will post a link to some pictures at the end of this post - it is NSFW due to the graphic nature of the pictures.

1. Thanks for the video. It's a fantastic reminder that being closed minded about anything, can also be dangerous. She was smart enough and brave enough to overcome her fears when the truth smacked her in the head.
2. I will never over a farm/ homestead without a .22 or a .410. My .410 and .22 have seen more use on this farm that anything else. I'm talking about once every 2 weeks or so.
3. From personal experience, it takes a very subtle shift in the socio-economic state of a country for some people to come unhinged:

Once police start running out of manpower, fuel for their vehicles, funds to maintain the vehicles or salaries, you start seeing a situation where everyone has more freedom. I have more freedom to do whatever the hell I like, but so do criminals. Homesteads and farms are ideal targets, due to isolation - no close neighbors to come to your aid and remote from law enforcement. I'll tell snippets of a personal experience here.
I watched a friend's farm many moons ago, in a country far, far away. My family was on our own farm, but my friend didn't want to leave his farm unattended while he was out of town for another farmer that had been tortured and killed in a farm attack.
The 2nd night on the farm. Around 10PM, I sat in the living room watching TV. The 2 small dogs (mutts) started growling, which was unusual. They were looking straight at the front gate. The fence was a steel fence, topped with razor and a strand of electric, so I knew nothing was coming in through the fence.
I walked out the back door to the side of the house and looked around the corner of the house at the front gate. There was enough moonlight to where I could see 3 guys at the gate with what appeared to be bolt cutters and I could see a rifle magazine. I immediately called 10111 (911) and was surprised when someone answered. I told them what was going on. The lady told me to go lock myself in the bathroom and not to fight them - that they are on their way. There are no good outcomes in a home invasion. Period.
I owned a .22 rifle and a CZ100 9mm pistol at the time. I only had the pistol with the ammo in the mag on me at that moment. No light and no spare mag.
Based on the knowledge I had from other farmers that had been attacked, I knew that I would certainly be tortured, killed and probably sodomized - not necessarily in that order.
The distance from where I was to the gate was about 75 meters. I was still a novice when it came to pistol shooting at that time (hell, I'm still no expert!). I aimed center mass on the one at the gate and fired 3 shots. My pistol was loaded with bog standard PMP 124gr FMJ's. I saw the guy drop to his knees, get up and stumble off with his friends. They did not return fire.
I called my dad and he rushed to get there. It took him 30 minutes. The cops showed up almost 12 hours later. They didn't have fuel for the single patrol vehicle in running condition and the station commander was the only one that had the keys to the petrol pumps. They also threatened to arrest me for firing on an unconfirmed threat. I called up the inspector that issued my permit (much higher rank that these fools) and he straightened the whole thing out.
In retrospect, I would have had an AR, killed them all and tossed them in the river for the crocs.

Here's a link to pictures of victims of farm attacks in South Africa (mods, please delete if needed) ABSOLUTELY NSFW:
https://www.google.com/search?q=victims+of+farm+attacks+in+south+africa&client=opera&hs=vaB&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0lNqyqNbSAhWE6CYKHcbhBh4Q_AUICSgC&biw=1920&bih=944


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:13 am 
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delarey wrote:
Here's a link to pictures of victims of farm attacks in South Africa (mods, please delete if needed) ABSOLUTELY NSFW:


Yes these are certainly gory, unpleasant photos of mutilated women, children and adult men which IMO are not necessary to make your point.
I honestly do not recommend that anyone click on the link. It is needless gore and we are all adults who understand that the world has ugly realities. :roll:



Back on the subject:

In communities with dysfunctional services people are pretty much on their own when it comes to self defense, fire fighting, EMT and other "basic" services.

I would note that this is not just true in rural South Africa but in many US cities.

In NOLA a 12 hour response time for the NOPD while not common is not unheard of happening. Honestly in the situation you described there are few urban areas where help would arrive rapidly enough to do anything but take photos of the crime scene.

This article describes the problem in 2012.
http://wgno.com/2012/12/05/nopd-respons ... ks-debate/

This is an article on the same subject 5 years later in 2017.
http://www.wwltv.com/news/no-east-resid ... /419650044

IMO a person should have an effective (yet lawful) means of self defense available at all times because when/if the SHTF it will happen suddenly and at an inconvenient time.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:20 am 
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Well, it wasn't necessary, but it did prove my point to an extent :D
The point of the picture link was that all of those men, women and children were tortured and killed on homesteads and farms.
It brings to mind another tool used in any dangerous situation...mindset and situational awareness.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:06 am 
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Something on the topic, Vermont few weeks ago.

http://www.wcax.com/story/34614361/barre-town-couple-use-tomahawk-to-fight-off-intruder
Quote:

BARRE TOWN, Vt. –
A husband and spouse struggle off an aged man who randomly entered their residence with a rifle.

John Berard and Andrea Wasson say they have been anticipating considered one of their daughters to stroll by means of their door Sunday morning on Little John Street. As an alternative, in got here a stranger with a lethal weapon.

He used his tomahawk to battle off an intruder.

“I had the rifle and he was nonetheless coming at me and I used to be backing out, and once I received about right here, I simply picked this up and began whaling on his head,” stated Berard.

Berard says Kenneth Pecor strolled into his home and pointed a gun at him at round 10:30 a.m. Sunday.

Reporter Priscilla Liguori: Did you employ all your may, would you say, or did you employ sufficient to maintain him down?

Berard: I used to be utilizing each ounce of may I had.

Berard and his spouse stated Pecor demanded cash and a car.

“The person was clearly chilly and hungry. I stored considering, perhaps I might get him a cup of espresso and he’ll settle down,” stated Wasson.

The couple says at first, Pecor advised them he did not need to harm anybody and even set the rifle on the kitchen counter. Then, issues modified. They are saying Pecor confirmed them that he stole a screwdriver from their storage.

“He then proceded to say it is received my prints on it now however it will not, and he began to wipe it off after which he stated, and you understand, you’ve got seen my face,” stated Berard.

Berard says as soon as Pecor was on the bottom, he stored the gun pointed at him till police arrived.

“I used to be targeted on memorizing his face and his garments,” stated Wasson.

Police say Pecor informed them he was on this storage for a few half-hour ready to see if anybody was residence throughout the road. He did not know that Berard and Wasson have been there making breakfast.

“I did have that thought: We will die on Sunday morning in my home,” stated Wasson.

Police say they have no idea the place Pecor acquired the gun.

“The male was a homeless individual dwelling within the woods close to the quarry,” stated Chief Michael Stevens, Barre City Police Division.

“You see that taking place type of, round medicine, otherwise you see it occurring for individuals who reside in mansions,” stated Berard. “It is simply a type of issues the place you do not give it some thought occurring to you.”

Pecor was behind bars on the Northeast Correctional Complicated Monday night time. He’s set to be arraigned Tuesday on fees of aggravated assault and illegal trespassing.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:36 am 
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I don't know which is the worse crime...Home invasion or the bad English in that article! [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY]

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:19 am 
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This is a quote from the link above which also provides a brief synopsis of the home invasion.


Quote:
BARRE TOWN, Vt. -
The tables turn on a 70-year-old homeless man accused of trying to rob a Barre Town couple at gunpoint in their own home.

Police say Kenneth Pecor was able to get inside a home on Little John Road Sunday morning. He allegedly demanded cash and a car while pointing a rifle at two of the residents.

But after a struggle, the homeowner was able to fight back.

"He was able to take and use a tomahawk, and defend himself against the male and was able to grab the rifle and had the male subdued waiting for the police when he got there," said Chief Michael Stevens, Barre Town Police Department.

Pecor is now facing felony charges of aggravated assault and unlawful trespassing. He told police he had been living in nearby woods and wanted to use the car and cash to buy food.


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