Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

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Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Dawgboy » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:49 pm

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Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by wee drop o' bush » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:54 pm

Dawgboy wrote:In Africa... Smart girls!

http://io9.com/5958887/oh-this-just-som ... -generator
Seems as if it could be revolutionary if it could be made to be both widely available and usable :clap:
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Stercutus » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:58 pm

That did not exactly invent it:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/ ... 101103.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also the claims of running a generator for six hours on a liter of pee are dubious.
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Neddog » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:02 pm

Whoever invented it, it's awesome. It reminds me of the garbage-powered cars of the future in the "Back to the Future" movies.

So if I get this right, the team of UK scientists had invented the process but these teenage girls put it into practical application to create a working generator out of it, right?
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by BullOnParade » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:06 pm

Dawgboy wrote:In Africa... Smart girls!

http://io9.com/5958887/oh-this-just-som ... -generator
meredithjh33 (in the comments) wrote:... The article gives the impression that the urine is producing energy. The electrolytic cell requires electricity, that produces hydrogen, that produces electricity. It would be a net loss of electricity. The Laws of Physics can't be broken, even in Africa.
I've never been good with electricity and energy problems, but is it possible that the hydrogen produces enough energy to run the electrolytic cell which is separating the hydrogen? I understand no solar cell is efficient enough to run a light bulb bright enough to charge the solar cell, but could this be a loop hole in the physics if a lot of the hydrogen filtering process happens without power (water filter, blah, blah)?
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Dawgboy » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:37 pm

I am not at all sure as I am no chemist, but the energy is there for the taking.

Foster Farms dumps all it's chicken shit in giant covered vats, adds water and stirs it, and lets bacteria digest it to produce methane gas, and all their electricity is provided from generators running the methane. Afterwards, they clean out the vats and have a great nitrogen fertilizer as well.
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by spanningtree » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:05 pm

Ya, thats just really cool stuff. +1 on the energy just there for the taking.

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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Wormjello » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:00 pm

Does it work with men's urine? You would need to have at least two girls because at clubs they can never go to the bathroom by themselves. :lol:
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Finch » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:03 pm

I'm disappointed this is not a miniature water wheel you pee on
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by majorhavoc » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:17 pm

Finch wrote:I'm disappointed this is not a miniature water wheel you pee on
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by grennels » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:33 pm

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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Dan_Jorgenson » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:05 am

The way i see this working is that the energy required to separate urea (into nitrogen, water, hydrogen) is less than the energy output from burning hydrogen (or reacting it in a fuel cell). It is very similar to hydrogen reforming with hydrocarbons. Problems that may occur are the storage of borax, output of nitrogen that can react with oxygen to form NOx, cost for the electrolytic cell and generator and 6 hours of electricity is not a defined unit, kWh per litre would be better.

But still it turns waste into energy so it could be applied to waste water treatment to good effect.

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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Ad'lan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:54 am

Dan_Jorgenson wrote:The way i see this working is that the energy required to separate urea (into nitrogen, water, hydrogen) is less than the energy output from burning hydrogen (or reacting it in a fuel cell).
I'd be interested to see the chemistry of their electrolytic cell. The link to a research paper from thenext web is written from the Department of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering at Ohio University, so I don't know how connected they will be to the African project, but I might drop them an e-mail. their method is an Alkaline Nickel catalysed electrolysis, with some quite interesting chemistry. It's also 3 years old, so maybe they've started use and production of the electrolytic cells for this now, but the Article seems to suggest the girls have done it with just their innovation, not buying a foreign design.. Of course, translating the chemistry talk "Nickel in basic media is rapidly converted to Ni(OH)2 (Ni2+) which is further oxidized to NiOOH (Ni3+)." is simply an Alkaline solution to which you've added nickel. Not what I'd really want a teenager to muck about with unsupervised, but then, I suppose I did.
Dan_Jorgenson wrote: It is very similar to hydrogen reforming with hydrocarbons. Problems that may occur are the storage of borax, output of nitrogen that can react with oxygen to form NOx, cost for the electrolytic cell and generator and 6 hours of electricity is not a defined unit, kWh per litre would be better.
Nitrogen Gas isn't going to React with Oxygen Gas to form anything outside of an industrial oven or an engine, and their electrolysis should produce hydrogen from one end and the Nitrogen at the other, so they can be easily separated.

But I can help you with the last one, according to the linked research paper their "Theoretically, hydrogen can be produced at $0.69 kg-1 based on an electricity cost of $0.07 kWh-1"

But this is why I'm confused, the research paper suggests 1M of Urea produces through this reaction 3M of Hydrogen gas. According to NASA, human urine has 9.3 g/L of Urea in it, so to make life easier and be generous that's 10g, so that's (Does A-level chemistry in his head. gets it wrong, goes to get a pen)... about a gram of hydrogen produced.

A Gram of Hydrogen produces energy for 6 hours? Bit of a small trickle then. Energy of Conbustion is 286 kJ/mol, so if they are using less than that in electrolysis (and I'm not going to convert it to kilowatt hrs and all that, do I look like an Engineer) they are producing energy. Electrolysis isn't really my specialisation, and I'm not going to refamiliarise myself with it right now, but I can't think of any energy producing examples.

I think the Articles describing it as a generator have got the wrong end of the stick, or it's missing some information. It's not an energy producer, at least the Nickel Catalysed one isn't, it's a hydrogen generator, a cheaper, faster, from waste hydrogen generator. And importantly, you can sell hydrogen.
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Braxton » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:55 am

I miss the rain down in africaaaaaaaaaaaa...
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Neville » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:42 pm

This cannot be a net energy producer with the only energy input as urine.

First, it talks about a "cell" basically meaning the water in the urine is being split into hydrogen and oxygen. The electricity to do that has to come from somewhere.

Second, where is the hydrogen stored... in that propane jug? Tell me how you're going to get 6 hour's worth of gas into that much space without compressing it. There's no compressor present, and if there was, it would take electricity to run it too.

My feeling is that these girls constructed a "model" just like kids in our science fair here create a "volcano" out of baking soda and vinegar. Simply props to illustrate a concept. Not a viable energy source in any practical sense.

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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by JayceSlayn » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:28 pm

EDIT: I was scooped by Ad'lan, and I somehow missed your post, so this is somewhat redundant, but I had to do the math for myself too. :P

I read the paper that is linked from the original article, and it seems to discuss the details of the nickel catalyst that they claim to be using, but it doesn't look like it was written by the girls. They may have used it as a reference, however I'm not sure why it's linked from the site, and I didn't dig into it much further.

To me: it doesn't sound like a very feasible method of generating anything except watching an extraordinarily complicated piece of machinery suck on urine. Here's some quick calculations I did from the paper and the io9 article.

From the research paper: using their nickel catalyst electrochemical cell, it consumes 37.5 watt-hours per gram (Wh/g) to produce hydrogen from urea. Converting this to joules per gram, I multiply by 3600 seconds per hour to get 135,000 joules per gram, or 135 kJ/g. Converting this to kilojoules per mole we multiply by the molar weight of hydrogen (2 grams/mol) and get 270 kJ/mol. That's the energy consumed in producing a mole of hydrogen from urea by the specific reaction stated in the research paper.

Now, for harnessing the energy: the thermal energy produced by the combustion of hydrogen gas with oxygen gas is 286 kJ/mol. That means that per mole of hydrogen produced by this setup, you are (in a thermodynamic, perfect world) net 16 kJ/mol. The girls make no reference to the concentration of urea they are using, but the paper cites 0.33 molar urea in a 5 molar potassium hydroxide solution. The reaction states that they get 3 moles of hydrogen out of each urea molecule, so that is effectively 0.99 molar hydrogen locked up in the chemical bonds. 0.99 moles per liter * 16 kJ/mol = 15.84 kJ/liter chemical energy. For reference, gasoline is about 35 MJ/liter, or ~2200 times the energy density of this "fuel".

The io9 article states that 1 liter of urine can power the generator for 6 hours. Now, first off, it is thermodynamically impossible to have a heat engine with 100% efficiency, and internal combustion engines which use the Otto cycle are reeeally, reeeally bad for efficiency. Typically we see practical efficiencies of 25% for gasoline ICE engines. Assuming you can run an engine of tiny enough displacement off the hydrogen production for that long (we're talking microscopic and clearly not what is pictured), it would put out (10.56 kJ/liter)(25% efficiency)/(6 hrs * 3600 s/hr) = 0.00012 watts.

That net energy would then have to go into overcoming the other inefficiencies of the system like friction of the moving pistons in cylinders etc. and I just don't see any way that could feasibly be a net energy producer. :-/

-------

Interestingly, an alternative use for urine: Assuming a flow rate of 1 liter per minute (is that reasonable?), dribbling (I'll speculate on flow rate, not initial velocity) from a height of 1 meter above the ground will acquire a kinetic power of (1 liter per minute)(1 kilogram per liter)(1/60 minutes per second)(1 meter)(9.81 meters per second squared) = 0.1635 watts due to gravitational acceleration. Whereupon, if it impinges on a water wheel and imparts ~10% of its kinetic energy would produce a shaft power of about 0.01635 watts. Maybe a 136x better use?
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Dan_Jorgenson » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:55 am

JayceSlayn wrote:EDIT:
Interestingly, an alternative use for urine: Assuming a flow rate of 1 liter per minute (is that reasonable?), dribbling (I'll speculate on flow rate, not initial velocity) from a height of 1 meter above the ground will acquire a kinetic power of (1 liter per minute)(1 kilogram per liter)(1/60 minutes per second)(1 meter)(9.81 meters per second squared) = 0.1635 watts due to gravitational acceleration. Whereupon, if it impinges on a water wheel and imparts ~10% of its kinetic energy would produce a shaft power of about 0.01635 watts. Maybe a 136x better use?
Ah so what your suggesting is an elevated toilet. In which case the energy expended by the individual would surpass the energy gained by the 'hydro' power many times over. Anyway with those figures it looks like the output of the device is below the imbedded energy of the nickel and borax and the required input of the electrolytic cell.

It would seem more effective to just piss on energy crops like switchgrass.

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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by JayceSlayn » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:52 am

Dan_Jorgenson wrote:Ah so what your suggesting is an elevated toilet. In which case the energy expended by the individual would surpass the energy gained by the 'hydro' power many times over. Anyway with those figures it looks like the output of the device is below the imbedded energy of the nickel and borax and the required input of the electrolytic cell.

It would seem more effective to just piss on energy crops like switchgrass.
Hehe. Yeah, an elevated toilet might be more practical in this case. <.<

BTW: I don't mean to poo-poo their inspiring efforts to convert a waste stream into useful energy, and I could still have misjudged their approach entirely, but to solve these sorts of problems eventually we will need to talk hard science, and I'm not seeing this one add up just yet. I am really happy to see people trying crazy stuff though - a number of great inventions have come about that way - and I personally would have never thought of using urine as a fuel source for anything.
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Ad'lan » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:03 am

JayceSlayn wrote:
BTW: I don't mean to poo-poo their inspiring efforts to convert a waste stream into useful energy, and I could still have misjudged their approach entirely, but to solve these sorts of problems eventually we will need to talk hard science, and I'm not seeing this one add up just yet. I am really happy to see people trying crazy stuff though - a number of great inventions have come about that way - and I personally would have never thought of using urine as a fuel source for anything.
I think some reporter got the wrong end of the stick. This isn't producing energy, it's a generator of hydrogen gas.
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by JayceSlayn » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:26 am

Ad'lan wrote:I think some reporter got the wrong end of the stick. This isn't producing energy, it's a generator of hydrogen gas.
Yeah. Later last night I looked at the original Maker Faire Africa blog post (http://makerfaireafrica.com/2012/11/06/ ... generator/) and at the high-res pictures of their setup. After that I was fairly certain that it is probably not a working model.

NBC picked up this story as well, and they contacted one of the inventors of the urea electrolysis process, Gerardine Botte, a Chem-E whose name is in the research paper above. (http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/futur ... -1C6956099) Real journalism does still exist! She explained that it does not work as a power generation process, but it could be a more efficient way to treat wastewater that allows for some energy recoupment. A hydrogen fuel cell could be a little more efficient than the ICE, IMO.

I think it is good to get people talking about it, just too bad that it was being touted as a working process by a number of the other sites that picked it up.
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by GunRun1 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:43 pm

Finch wrote:I'm disappointed this is not a miniature water wheel you pee on
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by GunRun1 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:02 pm

Neville wrote:This cannot be a net energy producer with the only energy input as urine.

First, it talks about a "cell" basically meaning the water in the urine is being split into hydrogen and oxygen. The electricity to do that has to come from somewhere.

Second, where is the hydrogen stored... in that propane jug? Tell me how you're going to get 6 hour's worth of gas into that much space without compressing it. There's no compressor present, and if there was, it would take electricity to run it too.

My feeling is that these girls constructed a "model" just like kids in our science fair here create a "volcano" out of baking soda and vinegar. Simply props to illustrate a concept. Not a viable energy source in any practical sense.
Actually this is very feasible...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlciNOyo_U" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Valarius » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:25 pm

grennels wrote:There ain't no free lunch.
No, there isn't. For starters, you need to drink before you can pee. Great idea though.
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Re: Urine powered Generator invented by some teenage girls

Post by Ad'lan » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:22 pm

GunRun1 wrote:
Neville wrote:This cannot be a net energy producer with the only energy input as urine.

First, it talks about a "cell" basically meaning the water in the urine is being split into hydrogen and oxygen. The electricity to do that has to come from somewhere.

Second, where is the hydrogen stored... in that propane jug? Tell me how you're going to get 6 hour's worth of gas into that much space without compressing it. There's no compressor present, and if there was, it would take electricity to run it too.

My feeling is that these girls constructed a "model" just like kids in our science fair here create a "volcano" out of baking soda and vinegar. Simply props to illustrate a concept. Not a viable energy source in any practical sense.
Actually this is very feasible...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlciNOyo_U" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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