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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:41 am 
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JollyRoger762 wrote:
Nope, it's called the Hudson Bay.

Here's the link: http://duluthpack.com/product_detail.aspx?product=Hudson%20Bay%20Pack

it's 24x22x9.

The Frost River Nessmuk (which I also have) was 16x16 (over the pockets) x 5



Frost River is out of business, sadly, but here's a Duluth Pack bag that is very similar...

http://duluthpack.com/guide-pack-backpack.html

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:17 pm 
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Nice topic.

Here in Brazil we still have some manufacturers off cast iron products, such as pans, grills, etc. They are still very popular in the interior, there are many houses without gas ovens and they go just fine with the wood burning ones.

Recently, in a trip to a small city were I have family, I bought a 50 cm wide grill with no wooden parts. Usefull for fried meals, but also to hold aluminum pans over a fire.

I'll post a picture here tomorrow.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:34 pm 
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After a little delay, here are two pics.

It was used today at lunch for some steaks.

Image

Image

Been thinking about taking it to the woods next time I go camping.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Beware of prechers, they seldom tell the truth but rather tell you only enough to support their own style.

I enjoy reading the old books and modern peoples representations on it like the articles Steven Watts writes for Backwoodsman magazine, however, to say that LNT is completely wrong or to suggest it is counter to the old ways is incorrect.

It takes just as much resources to mail order that lantern from some online store as it does a headlamp. I dare say just as much resources to mine the metal and create that paint of that lantern as it does to make the plastic of the flashlight. I also have The Northface Meow which is a Cat's Meow sleeping bag made entirely out of recycled material and I have fleece made from recycled pop bottles.

Another point is that LNT is NOT NEW! The Native American way was a LNT method apart from cave paintings, everything else besides rocks rotted away. During the frontier periods this course is talking about, using LNT methods was a survival skill so the enemy wouldn't know you were in the area. Today, special forces with all their nylon gear still follow LNT as a survival method.

Do you know what is new? All the gear that these old guys used was new! Sure, some of these famous folk may have bought second hand gear, but when they went on these big expeditions they outfitted the party with all new gear from the company store and this gear was the latest and greatest gear of their time. The only reason they did not use nylon is because they didn't have any at that time. This truth is often forgotten by the preachers. As soon as the "white man" came over the natives said, "Oh wow, these metal knives and pots are fantastic!". Today a native could live in a teepee,wigwam, long house, what have you...but the vast majority seem to prefer European style houses with hot and cold running water and electricity.

Military gear is not old, an antique (in general) needs to be 100 years old, anything else is just vintage. Some gear from 1941 is not that different than what we have today. 1941 does not make it 1813. That wood packframe you made to carry your WWII canteen is really just mixing eras of old and new (I'll let the reader decide which item is newer lol).

I dabbled in the old ways but weight was always an issue as well as concern for staying dry (cold and wet=dead in most parts of Canada, most times of the year). Then there is always the thought of looking like Buckskin Jim while driving your car to the wilderness. Add to that the fact that all of the people who write on these forums about the old ways are doing so with a plastic computer.

Want to look and camp the old way? No problem, have at her and enjoy; just remember what the rest of your life is like and what era you live in.

LNT also means to leave the wilderness wild for the rest of us. Due to urban sprawl we have more and more deer and racoons in our city because there is no wilderness for them.

This post is not ment to be grumpy or anti-old way/pro-LNT, it is rather to put both ways into proper perspective. Since I am not a preacher of either way, I won't sugar coat either method and if you look into it hard enough you will hopefully see that both methods have a place as others above have stated.

PS: If I was in the area, I'd certainly attend all these old style courses I could and would greatly enjoy doing so!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:21 pm 
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A lot of good points there. I think the point Steve and Dave have been making is that everything leaves a trace somewhere in the pipeline--if not at the campsite, then at some other site. I like the idea of combining traditional and LNT in the primitive method.

I should point out, however, that using "Native Americans" as a broad example of Leave No Trace ignores the trmendous archaeological record they left behind, up to and including the monumental architecture at North America's largest pre-Columbian city, Cahokia. The hunter-gatherer societies of the Archaic period are better examples of LNT than the settled horticultural/agricultural societies dating from 500 BCE to 1500 BCE.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:48 pm 
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I like "old ways" because it looks cooler. Then again, I like "new ways" for availability and weight and function.

Most of it is solely based off "what is working for me and all I need".

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:46 pm 
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JollyRoger762 wrote:
Nope, it's called the Hudson Bay.

Here's the link: http://duluthpack.com/product_detail.aspx?product=Hudson%20Bay%20Pack

it's 24x22x9.

The Frost River Nessmuk (which I also have) was 16x16 (over the pockets) x 5


Am I missing something? Or were they bought out by somebody else?

https://www.frostriver.com/

And they have quite a following on BCUSA.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Yeah, not sure what that was about - Frost River has been in business and is currently in business. :?:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:24 pm 
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FR went out of business but was apparently rescued. Not sure of the details.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:30 pm 
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Awww... makes sense.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:06 pm 
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And I totally quoted the wrong post. :lol: I blame the fever I didn't have that day for scrambling my brain.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:23 pm 
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Tried the canola oil lamp by filling 1/2 of a Gerber baby food jar with the oil. I bought the wide wick that is normally used on hurricane lamps and folded it over and sewed it into sort of a cylinder with the top sewn shut. Using stiff wire I made a stand that the wick can slip over and put the assembly into the oil. The wick did draw the oil up but upon lighting it the wick burns downward at a pretty good rate. I would think I could get maybe 15-20 minutes out of it (burns pretty sooty also). I am working on salting a new section of wick to see if that helps retard the burn. Any advice on getting a slow burn out of this?

BTW: Thanks for the great thread!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:22 pm 
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I think there seems to be a very biased view of LNT ethics in the article above. The author has basically chosen the worst examples of those who choose to use modern day camping gear and choose them to represent LNT; a strawman argument if their ever was one. I could paint a pretty bad picture of traditonal methods if I chose to let a teenage boy that chops down a dozen live trees to build his lean-to and fire out of, shats and bathes in the river represent traditional methods and leaves a pile of ash and cut stumps as evidence of his camp. I doubt Nessmuck would want that kid representing him.

A couple of things:

The basic seven principles of LNT seem to have very little that would contradict traditional gear and methods. http://lnt.org/learn/7-principles

Secondly, Traditional gear is heavy, don't forget that in the old days it wasn't unusual to enter the wilderness with your gear strapped to a horse, mule, or wagon. I doubt many could really want to lug around 200 lbs of wood, canvas and steel on their back.

Third, plenty of people make their own lightweight gear and take great pride in it; it's not all store bought disposable crap Alcohol stoves made from recycled coke cans are probably one of the most popular forms of stove on the trail today. Alcohol is renewable and the stove itself is recycled. Lightweight and sustainable! Plenty of lightweight hikers sew their own backpacks, sleeping bags, and stuff sacks out of lightweight materials. Many prefer traditional natural down in their clothing and sleeping bags because it is the lightest, though not vegan approved for sure.

In summary I see no contradiction to leave no trace and traditional camping for the most part, the main difference would be in the gear you choose to cover your 10 essentials, and shelter clothing needs, and enjoy the outdoors.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:34 pm 
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To quote myself:
dogbane wrote:
A lot of good points there. I think the point Steve and Dave have been making is that everything leaves a trace somewhere in the pipeline--if not at the campsite, then at some other site. I like the idea of combining traditional and LNT in the primitive method.


Weight is certainly an issue wrt a lot of old-style camping, and that's something that Watts and Wescott are certainly aware of, since they are practicing the craft. But it doesn't have to be heavy: Kephart, for example, was always looking for a lighter tent.

Bias? Sure. But bias based on experience. These guys are campers going back decades. Wescott was a student of Larry Dean Olsen at BYU. Watts worked for a camping outfitter when he was young. Both have taught skills for decades and are always trying to see things in new ways. So don't think they come to any of this from a position of ignorance. Bias based on their own preferences, maybe, but not ignorance.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Interesting interview of Dave Wescott by Cody Lundin:
http://www.codylundin.com/wordpress/int ... -westcott/

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:59 pm 
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The LNT principles are fine but it mostly translates to "buy more stuff". It also tends to leave one's invovlvment with nature kind of hands offish. I'm not saying eat all the squirrels and make giant bonfires all the time when you do an overnighter but, as I grew up LNT, I find much more enjoyment in my skills growing in the woods so I do not have to buy things.

The issue is the dichotomy found in the action of LNT:
My Jetboil's total invironmental impact throughout it's life rehydrating my Mountain House beef stroganof
v.
My total impact every time I split a deadfall log and get a cooking fire going and cooking a trout I caught with some sorel and onions on a stick

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:16 pm 
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Ninja,I don't see how you can read the lint 7 principles and come to the conclusion that you need to buy more stuff!

Your versus comparison is a combination of false dichotomy and straw man a arguments.

I can hike into the woods without any fancy gear using all recycled and/or traditional methods and skills and still leave my campsite without any trace to the next person that I was there.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:04 pm 
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Manimal2878 wrote:
Ninja,I don't see how you can read the lint 7 principles and come to the conclusion that you need to buy more stuff!

Your versus comparison is a combination of false dichotomy and straw man a arguments.

I can hike into the woods without any fancy gear using all recycled and/or traditional methods and skills and still leave my campsite without any trace to the next person that I was there.


The LNT seminars (two of them) I've been to in the last decade sure showcased a lot of products to buy so you can be better at leaving no trace. Friends and associates of mine that practice LNT (conciously, subconciously, or by proxy) also tend to have a lot of gear compared to bushcrafters I know.

Quote:
Campfires can cause lasting impacts to the backcountry.
Use a lightweight stove for cooking and enjoy a candle lantern for light.
• Where fires are permitted, use established fire rings, fire pans, or mound fires.
• Keep fires small. Only use sticks from the ground that can be broken by hand.
• Burn all wood and coals to ash, put out campfires completely, then scatter cool ashes.

From your link

The above principle runs tantamount to what I do on fall and winter nights in the bush. I build a long fire and use it to keep me at 98.6 degrees. This tends to allow me to use less gear to do the same job. Bullet point 1 directly is telling me I must use some gear other than my axe and deadfall wood for my cooking and light. Point 2 says I must set up where a fire pit already exists thus restricting my options. Point 3 is directly against my building of a long fire. Point 4 is a gimme... we all should do that for general safety and I agree with it.

I do not understand how my versus example is flase dichotomy and straw man argument. It is the options I have and if I were to look at it in a "which one has more impact on the environment" -- which I am assuming is what the LNT philosophy is also addressing -- than I will choose my Jet Boil, fuel, and MH meal as having more impact on the environment than a caught trout and some wild edibles over a fire. In my reality, those are my options. I like and use my Jet Boil under the knowledge of it's impact.

Please explain that to me in more detail.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:47 am 
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It is a false dichotomy because LNT and traditional are not in opposition. It is a strawman because not everyone buys more gear as a crutch to achieve what they believe is ethical wilderness camping.

There is no reason you can't build a long fire from dead wood, and the next morning cover it over so there is not a smoldering scar left in the dirt as evidence you camped there. If you have done that, and one walking through where you slept the night before really can't see the evidence of you having been there, then I would say you did indeed practiced LNT, whether you constructed a lean to and fire pit or not.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:57 am 
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I do see them in opposition as they are practiced in reality. An LNT'er will say I am not doing things "right" as you propose. <<This may be wrong as per your interpretation but I'm not getting it that way on my end when it comes to what I do v. what an LNT'er does, preaches, and teaches at seminars. Maybe some one should contact an LNT "governing body" of some kind and let them know what you just said.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:58 am 
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It seems to me, as per your explanation and ones I've heard from a few others, that LNT has some bad press and "a few bad apples".

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