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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:17 am 
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My last post was mostly kidding, just to clarify.

I appreciate the new viewpoint though - one I never really thought of and it makes me want to challenge the "REI" school of thought which is everywhere... and in a majority of the outdoor outreach programs in existence.

ETA: I'd like to also add that LNT camping seems a great way to get people to buy stuff too. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:20 am 
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I've returned time and again to Kephart's work, and I continue to be inspired by it. I cannot believe I had never heard of a society devoted to his style of campcraft. Thank you for bringing this into my sphere.

On the leave no trace versus woodcraft issue, I've adapted the modern equipment to my method of woodcraft. The light, fast, and high tech gear is, for me, simply a bit more "grease in the wheels of the machine" easing my transition from urban to woodland. I do occasionally go pure skills and camp in the primitive survival style, but the gear available allows me free range to work anywhere along a broad continuum running from my wife's "near-glamping" style of camping to the "knap a discoidal blade when you need it and sleep in a scout pit".

I'm certain that most of the ZSers would fall towards the woodcraft end, rather than the synthetic clad, "bring the city to the woods" Yuppie on the continuum; regardless of the running fetish for gear we enjoy.

-Mike

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:57 pm 
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Those old kerosene stoves are nice to have around!!! One thing about them is that they're much safer to use indoors than a coleman fuel burning appliance. (which we all know we shouldn't do) Kerosene is a cheap stable fuel that can be stored with relative ease.

There's lots of good info and pictures in your post! Thanks!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:11 am 
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Molon Labe wrote:
I wonder how well peanut oil would work in that slutlamp. Peanut oil is slightly more flammable than the run of the mill veggie oil, but it also won't go stark with age. It can also be a lot more pricey too.


I think the cheaper the better, but boy wouldn't that smell good! Sesame oil, too. It'd be like having an Asian kitchen in your tent!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:47 am 
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Richard Harding Davis, on personal gear, written in 1917, quoted by Wescott:
Quote:
The same article that one declares is the most essential to his comfort, health, and happiness is the very first thing that another will throw into the trail. A man's outfit is a matter that seems to touch his private honor. I have heard veterans sitting around a camp-fire proclaim the superiority of their kits with a jealousy, loyalty, and enthusiasm they would not exhibit for the flesh of their flesh and the bone of their bone. On a campaign you may attack a man's courage, the flag he serves, thenewspaper for which he works, his intelligence, or his camp manners, and he will ignore you, but if you criticize his patent water bottle he will fall on you with both fists.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:58 am 
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dogbane wrote:
Molon Labe wrote:
I wonder how well peanut oil would work in that slutlamp. Peanut oil is slightly more flammable than the run of the mill veggie oil, but it also won't go stark with age. It can also be a lot more pricey too.


I think the cheaper the better, but boy wouldn't that smell good! Sesame oil, too. It'd be like having an Asian kitchen in your tent!

Yes, I imagine it would smell pretty good.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:20 am 
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dogbane wrote:
I'm curious to know what others think. I don't mean to dismiss or insult modern gear, since I know that it is heavily represented in the "Bug-out Gear" forum. In fact, I put this thread in "Other Gear" precisely because I don't imagine most people here would regard old-style gear as a legitimate alternative to the modern equipment.


Legitimate, hell. If it weren't for old-style gear, the new stuff wouldn't be what it is. And what does it do better?

Does a nylon tent shelter you from the elements any better than a properly constructed two-sided Whelen lean-to? The Tent may be a little more convenient. You can move them from place to place, and good ones generally last a while, but really when it comes down to it, is it any better?

If you take fuel supply out of the equation, does a new dual-fuel single-burner stove heat water any better than any homemade alcohol stove? Than any of the old-style brass stoves?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:04 am 
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quazi wrote:
dogbane wrote:
Molon Labe wrote:
I wonder how well peanut oil would work in that slutlamp. Peanut oil is slightly more flammable than the run of the mill veggie oil, but it also won't go stark with age. It can also be a lot more pricey too.


I think the cheaper the better, but boy wouldn't that smell good! Sesame oil, too. It'd be like having an Asian kitchen in your tent!

Yes, I imagine it would smell pretty good.
Image


Mmmm. Bear meat! So the lamp would serve triple purpose: giving light, smelling great, and attracting delicious, nutrient-rich meat sources. Win-win-win!

Actually, I don't think Molon Labe is in an area where bears are considered a problem.

Say, didn't the Inuit last for centuries burning animal fats for light? What's the tradition on lamp-induced bear attacks in the native community?

TravisM.1 wrote:
dogbane wrote:
I'm curious to know what others think. I don't mean to dismiss or insult modern gear, since I know that it is heavily represented in the "Bug-out Gear" forum. In fact, I put this thread in "Other Gear" precisely because I don't imagine most people here would regard old-style gear as a legitimate alternative to the modern equipment.


Legitimate, hell. If it weren't for old-style gear, the new stuff wouldn't be what it is. And what does it do better?

Does a nylon tent shelter you from the elements any better than a properly constructed two-sided Whelen lean-to? The Tent may be a little more convenient. You can move them from place to place, and good ones generally last a while, but really when it comes down to it, is it any better?

If you take fuel supply out of the equation, does a new dual-fuel single-burner stove heat water any better than any homemade alcohol stove? Than any of the old-style brass stoves?


I appreciate your thoughts on this. I think we're on the same wavelength. When it comes to the old gear, think of what Amundsen, Peary, and Shackleton accomplished with that technology, not to mention Roosevelt, Colonel Whelan, and the other great outdoorsmen.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:23 am 
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You should check out this book. I've got a copy that was in my Grandpap's library when he passed 20 years ago. All kinds of cool old-timey do it yourself outdoors gear.

"Wilderness Gear You Can Make Yourself" by Bradford Angier

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:46 am 
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TravisM.1 wrote:
You should check out this book. I've got a copy that was in my Grandpap's library when he passed 20 years ago. All kinds of cool old-timey do it yourself outdoors gear.

"Wilderness Gear You Can Make Yourself" by Bradford Angier


Thanks! I'll definitely take a look at it. I have his wild edible plants book, and I read his wilderness survival book back when I worked at B&N.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:22 pm 
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I had the "leave no trace" philosophy drilled into my head while I was in the Boy Scouts. 20 years later I still believe it is basically sound. We were also taught woodcraft alongside lessons on minimizing our impact on the local environment. So I'm not opposed to the occasional harvesting of natural resources while camping.

The reason I think "leave no trace" practices are important is that without it, you'd have a horde of rabid boy scouts and untrained people pillaging the woods every summer without regard for the consequences of their actions. I saw it happen every summer I attended or worked at scout camp. Some kid would inevitably cut live tree branches or sometimes fell an entire tree out of ignorance, lack of knowledge or for their personal convenience. Which brings me to another point that reinforces my belief in the "leave no trace" philosophy.

We live in a society of convenience. When something breaks we dont repair it anymore, we replace it. Given modern production methods, that's often the cheaper way to do it and it's almost always the faster way as well. While I dont feel that mother nature is as fragile as some make it seem, I do realize that it does take time for the wilderness to recover from our interaction with it. In this age of convenience and disposability, many people won't give a moments thought to cutting, burning, or whatever, while in the woods. I believe that if we are taught at a young age the importance of responsible stewardship and share that knowledge and philosophy with others, then there will be more wilderness for us all to enjoy for a lot longer than if we acted without regard for the impact we leave in our wake.

I love learning the techniques and practices from traditional campcraft, and I think it's just as important to share and preserve many of those skills as it is to minimize our impact on the environment. But I've seen first hand how inexperienced, unknowing, or just flat out uncaring people can deface or destroy beautiful locations and ruin the experience for those that come after them.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:27 pm 
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These may both fall under the auspices of tl;dr, but I think they are good reads.

http://www.purcelltrench.com/leaveatrace.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... ntent;col1

Personally, I fall down the middle. I practice "woodcraft/bushcraft" AND try to leave the place cleaner than I left it. Though the term is already used and may present some confusion (which I will try and clear up, though I know the term will still be confusing - I just dont have a better label) what I do is "scoutcraft". Not like boyscouts, but reaching back into the days of mtn men and indian scouts. These men used simple, effective and modern (often more modern than their employers) to navigate the wilderness. They also used their intense skills in utilizing the natural world to travel as light as possible, leaving as little trail as possible. An Apache scout traveled with the bare essentials, covered hundreds of miles on foot making shelter and fire out of desert scrub and moving on without a hint he ever passed, lest he in turn be followed and killed. Crow scouts were similarly known for their ability to travel in ones and twos with only a few trinkets to get them by while hunting their enemies (without being found, captured, tortured and killed in kind).

I get a lot of enjoyment out of practicing bushcraft skills and see the value (both environmental and tactical/practical) of LNT as contributing to "stealth" in the woods... I will adopt something made of plastic or modern fabrics as quick as anyone else, but if I can reuse an older item, or simply do without it, I will. I will hide my passing as best I am able, but I am utterly unafraid to use some of the WOOD out in those woods (if we had the courage and sense to actually make smart use of our woods and allow for nature to take its course when fires threaten, we wouldnt be seeing the plauge of pine bettles which have killed as much as 50% of some rocky mtn forests) to keep me from having to haul things (made of fuel and plastic and silicone and all) only made "necessary" by the requirements imposed by "leave no trace".


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:58 am 
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KeepItSimpleStupid wrote:
"scoutcraft"


Thanks for the perspective. I think of Tom Brown, of course, when I think of scoutcraft, and also frontiersmen like Liver-eating Johnson. It's a good part of the repertoir, and would be very useful in the ZPAW.

Hanuman, those hordes of untrained boy scouts and chechakos would get a well-deserved scolding from the old-style masters.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:54 am 
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dogbane wrote:
Mags wrote:
WOW! That is really really cool! More pictures please! The lanterns alone were incredible. The folding candle deal is pretty slick. Them old timers had it going on.


The folding candle lamp is very cool. They are still making them to the old specs in India. The windows are mica, not glass, so the lamp is not prone to breakage. Three sides have windows and the fourth is solid with a mirror to reflect the light. It can be suspended by the handle and also by a nail hole on the back, so it could go on a tent pole or a tree.


You can get the folding candle lamp here for a pretty good price, $27.50

http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.as ... 31&p=46786

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:36 pm 
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From Backwoodsman Magazine, reprinted by by permission:

Quote:
Traditional Camping and the Environmental Ethic: Trail Food for Thought
By Steven M. Watts

All human activity results in environmental impact. Every step and every breath leaves a trace of our passing.

The modern camper/backpacker/outdoor enthusiast relies on gear manufactured in the far-flung corners of the globe. It is then delivered by train, plane, ship or truck—powered by gasoline, diesel or jet fuel. He or she then hits the trail determined to leave no trace while outfitted with a set of lightweight, highly efficient technological wonders (almost all of which are made from non-renewable resources): tents and packs of nylon, aluminum, titanium and plastic...beautifully designed and engineered stoves burning gasoline, butane or propane...clothes of nylon, Teflon or other exotics...and sleeping systems of petroleum-based bags supported by foam and air.

So equipped, our 21st century adventurer travels to distant and sometimes remote locations (using the same intricate transportation systems that delivered their gear to them in the first place) determined to “take only pictures and leave only footprints”. Few stop to contemplate the global impact of such practices—how many forests are cleared, how many animals eradicated and how much air and water is polluted to provide us with our escape “back to nature”. Seduced by our technology, we fantasize about low impact practices and act as though not leaving behind a campfire scar (no matter what the cost) is the greatest act of virtue to which we can aspire. Or, as David Wescott puts it, “your campsite may be pristine, but there’s a big hole or a smokestack somewhere in somebody’s backyard”.

Perhaps someday we’ll look back on this time and wonder what in the world we thought we were doing.

The traditional camper/woodsman of the late 19th and early 20th century presents an alternative picture. I speak here of the true followers of the masters (Nessmuk, Horace Kephart, Daniel Carter Beard, Ernest Thompson Seton, Robert Baden Powell, Col. Townsend Whelen), not the tree-hacking, tin can strewing hordes of chumps that literally hit the woods following World War II. These skilled outdoorsmen took to the camp and trail with gear either bought from domestic or local manufacturers—or as often as not, homemade or retrofitted by themselves. Their tents, bags, ropes, rucksacks and clothes were made from renewable natural fibers—wool, cotton, hemp, linen and silk. Their tools and utensils of iron, steel, copper and tin used precious earth minerals, but were designed to last for scores of generations. They killed animals for food and coppiced the forest, chopping down trees to burn in their fires. Their trips tended not to be quick walk-throughs, but rather outdoor living experiences, meant to put them near a trout stream or simply to enjoy the pleasures and trials of the natural world while “woods loafing”.

They left lots of footprints and took few pictures, but they experienced life in the woods in a way that few of us have. They knew the pleasures of honest grub cooked over an open fire. They experienced the direct relationship between their life in the open and the natural resources around them. And I believe, they would understand that the environmental impact of driving to the modern-day trailhead (and the multinational industries and technologies necessary to make that happen) far exceeds that of their campfires from long ago.

Perhaps someday, we’ll be able to look back with praise for our forbears...realizing what we have lost...and how we have (with all good intentions) fooled ourselves.


zombiehunters.org is the first online source to publish this article.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:39 pm 
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The Backwoodsman is one of my favorite magazines.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:37 am 
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TravisM.1 wrote:
The Backwoodsman is one of my favorite magazines.


Only magazine I subscribe to any more. Each issue becomes part of the library, there's no throwaway issues.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:31 am 
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dogbane wrote:
KeepItSimpleStupid wrote:
"scoutcraft"


Thanks for the perspective. I think of Tom Brown, of course, when I think of scoutcraft, and also frontiersmen like Liver-eating Johnson. It's a good part of the repertoir, and would be very useful in the ZPAW.


TB is certainly a good modern day resource for learning the type of scoutcraft we're talking about. For the most people though, its piecing it together from history books, old instruction manuals, "living history" groups, and "related" courses of instruction.

Despite running survival courses and other instruction blocks for a few years, no one ever seemed interested when I talked about running a "scoutcraft" course. I thought it would be a hit, but no one ever took me up on it.

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Nice article you posted.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:00 am 
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KeepItSimpleStupid wrote:
Despite running survival courses and other instruction blocks for a few years, no one ever seemed interested when I talked about running a "scoutcraft" course. I thought it would be a hit, but no one ever took me up on it.

It might be time to revisit that, especially in the ZS context. You're in the NEUS, no?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:01 pm 
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Negative. Im broadcasting from an undisclosed central inter-mountain west location.

Maybe I will go over my notes if I can find them and see about putting together a program... See if there is any interest this go round.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:51 am 
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dogbane wrote:
Actually, I don't think Molon Labe is in an area where bears are considered a problem.

That's just what the bears want you to think.
Image

dogbane wrote:
Say, didn't the Inuit last for centuries burning animal fats for light? What's the tradition on lamp-induced bear attacks in the native community?

Yes they did, that's a good point.


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Awesome stuff... looks a lot like some of the stuff my grandfather had... He used to be a missionary in south america, and much of the equipment they used was older then the hills, and built like a tank.

It's strange, but the people in really old photos always look like they simply have more... style. They could hike all day in a button up vest, and by the end of the day, they look like they were kicking back in their study at home having a drink.

and "leave no trace" backpacking is only necessary today because some wilderness areas are like amusement parks... you're one of thousands of people trumping through, so don't stick your gum on the turnstiles, or mark the walls with graffiti, while you're waiting on your chance to take the ride (climb the mountain, go down the river in a kayak, etc).

Old style camping used more sustainable resources, and supplies could actually be generated in the field if needed... plus people were only out in the wilderness if they needed to be... hunters, trappers, nature photographers, surveyors. Most of the people out in the wilds had a purpose for being there, they weren't eco tourists tramping through an area just to say they've been there.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:05 pm 
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quazi wrote:
dogbane wrote:
Actually, I don't think Molon Labe is in an area where bears are considered a problem.

That's just what the bears want you to think.
Image

dogbane wrote:
Say, didn't the Inuit last for centuries burning animal fats for light? What's the tradition on lamp-induced bear attacks in the native community?

Yes they did, that's a good point.

Bears are Godless killing machines.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:10 pm 
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111t wrote:
quazi wrote:
dogbane wrote:
Actually, I don't think Molon Labe is in an area where bears are considered a problem.

That's just what the bears want you to think.
Image

dogbane wrote:
Say, didn't the Inuit last for centuries burning animal fats for light? What's the tradition on lamp-induced bear attacks in the native community?

Yes they did, that's a good point.

Bears are Godless killing machines.


I heard SkyNet and Cyberdine Systems based their T250 series off bears. Bears also eat babies and kick puppies all the time.

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