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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:55 pm 
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I was thinking about our non US and Canadian members who are severely restricted when it comes to weapons. Lets say you have built a good supply of water, food, medicine, soap, and other necessities for society's breakdown. You managed to square away supplies but didn't have the ability to make an unassailable bunker. You still need to travel outside from time to time. You believe (probably rightly) one day you will be noticed as not being rail thin or dead and be attacked for your supplies. What would be a weapon system you would employ. Let's basically assume you will have to find for yourself and group a simple weapon which might be found and a more complex weapon you will have to make. Also, power is down so no electric or gas powered tools.
Examples of simple weapons you may find-small knives, pipes, rebar, bats or cricket bats(?), big stones, sticks, axes, picks
Weapons you might try to make- long bows, recurve bows, slingshots, muskets, long knives/short swords, spears both wooden tipped and blade tipped, booby traps.
Let's also assume the internet is down so your complex weapon will have to be made from your current knowledge and available supplies (those bow strings and musket materials are gonna be hard to make)
So what's the plan?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:59 am 
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Australian weather, flora and fauna...bring it on twizzler, who needs weapons when you could use a croc :twisted:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:31 am 
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I thought it's been shown that using anything as a weapon , even against multiple assailants makes you a lawbreaker in some countries . I believe Britain and Australia were used as examples.

It was discussed in the " you are the target of a riot" thread. and the news story from Australia was used as an example of "excessive self-defence"

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/chase-on-train-a-knife-and-a-son-lost-parents-appeal-to-the-young-20100423-thvq.html

That still just blows my mind

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:55 am 
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flybynight wrote:
I thought it's been shown that using anything as a weapon , even against multiple assailants makes you a lawbreaker in some countries . I believe Britain and Australia were used as examples.

It was discussed in the " you are the target of a riot" thread. and the news story from Australia was used as an example of "excessive self-defence"


well, According to Queensland police, I can defend myself with an open palm (using the ulna to do the damage) but I would be assaulting if I was using a fist. The definition of 'self defence' really comes down to the police officer's interpretation.

though i know of paramedics who were assaulted knocking people out and doing some serious damage not being apprehended, comes down to the person attending the case

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:47 am 
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flybynight wrote:
I thought it's been shown that using anything as a weapon , even against multiple assailants makes you a lawbreaker in some countries . I believe Britain and Australia were used as examples.

It was discussed in the " you are the target of a riot" thread. and the news story from Australia was used as an example of "excessive self-defence"

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/chase-on-train-a-knife-and-a-son-lost-parents-appeal-to-the-young-20100423-thvq.html

That still just blows my mind


Depends on your lawyer. Like most criminal cases.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:48 am 
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The idea of multiple defenders was mentioned in the original post, but it's a fleeting reference in the 7th sentence. So I'd like to emphasize the point here that the most effective (and arguably legal) defensive weapon is to team up with others. It's at least possible (probably likely) that whenever this hypothetical attack happens, it'll be by a group of attackers, likely with some degree of coordination, if not exactly sophistication. Alternatively, if you're alone, astute enemies will simply wait until you venture out and then take your supplies while you're gone. I'm not sure how many of us are clever enough to construct and disguise spring traps that will reliably defeat a determined enemy with time on their hands.

So relying on whatever low tech personal weaponry you can come up with is going to be a dicey proposition against multiple assailants. Strength in numbers. Do it right and you won't necessary even have to engage in actual hostilities. The intimidation factor of a well-organized, armed group of determined survivors might be enough to encourage opportunistic marauders to look for easier fodder elsewhere.

And obviously if you have multiple defenders, some can remain behind to protect your supplies while you and others go out on any necessary forays.

Beyond that, machetes, polearms and maces for traveling about. The same equipment plus whatever ranged weapons you can make (bows, slings, etc) for when you're at your base of operations.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:02 am 
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How about our brains for weapons? :mrgreen:

Layered defenses before hand-to-hand combat?

Thorny bushes, tall walls, stout gates, hurricane shutters, ditches, narrow passageways with murder holes, etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:12 am 
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I think in such a situation, "government" will be altered, therefore laws will be altered. The "open palm" type laws will likely be tossed out the window by whatever governing body happens to exist and exercise control. In survival situations humans tend to be pretty pragmatic. It is in unnatural situations of relatively high security and liability concerns, like we are currently experiencing, that humans start getting weird ideas.

As far as weapons in such a situation, humans have figured out how to make very sophisticated weapons for a long time with only stones and sticks. More modern examples of those would be the weapon du jour.

Even in Australia there are a lot of illegal/unregistered guns. One academic research paper I read said Australia expected several hundred thousand guns to be turned in when they enacted their laws, and only a small percentage of that number were ever actually given to the government. Germans, according to the scuttlebutt I have heard, have a massive number of unregistered guns stashed away from WWII. But that is scuttlebutt and I have not tried to verify. I'm pretty sure Yugoslavia had tight restrictions on gun ownership prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain. The genocides and accounts from Selco would indicate a lot of people acquired guns after the fall of the government.

My point is that SHTF situations in countries with tight gun regulations and severe self-defense laws will likely still feature a large number of guns and looser SD laws. Just my thoughts. Not trying to say "right" or "wrong."

Also, just a note: many places experience civil wars or have armed groups spring up and it is not clear where they got their weapons from. Kosovo comes to mind, Libya as well. The news paper and internet pictures I see often show rebels carrying Chinese AKs and other Chinese weapons and military gear. If there were a global SHTF situation, it is possible with the breakdown of infrastructure the Chinese would be less capable of supplying guns to the far corners of the world, which would result in fewer guns in tightly controlled places due to the lower starting number. However, if a SHTF was local I expect guns would quickly be imported into situations where the devastation was so great and long lasting that people were assuming a Medieval existence and large numbers were starving to death. Some examples which come to mind are Somalia in the early '90s, and Yugoslavia during most of the 90's. An interesting counter example would be the Ukraine famine of 1932-33, the Holodomor famine. Though as I"m double checking myself, that was man-made and government controlled. That much government control would not indicate a "SHTF" situation, just a bunch of people reshaping society for it's betterment and improvement.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:55 am 
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Muy interesante. Hmmm, going to merge previous replies with this: Train to use my hands - carry a 12 foot spear - learn to work in groups. Barbara Ehrenreich once wrote, "The transformation from prey to predator, in which the weak rise up against the strong, is the central 'story' in the early human narrative. William h. McNeil addresses "the human propensity for 'keeping together in time' as through group dancing and military drilling, and suggests that it can be traced to the primordial sociality of the hominid band confronting a wild animal..."

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:00 pm 
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I guess I'll have to catch and train a herd of wild hogs to kill and eat intruders.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Start with these as a breeding stock:

http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/wild-pigs-thwart-isis-ambush-kill-3-militants

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:43 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:26 pm 
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Actually Australia has rather lax gun laws and a large availability compared to many countries. Try to buy a gun in China or Japan. Heck even illegal firearms are very hard to come by in those countries.
Back on Topic- would you spend more time making active offensive weapons or passive defensive weapons (booby traps)?

Pro's for offensive- takes less time, can take it with you, potential to entice those hooligans to move on without a fight.
Con's for offensive- ya gotta be fit and awake to use them, if all you have in your group is Woody Allen look a likes and the enemy has all Andre the Giant look a likes your probably gonna lose.

Pro's of booby traps- they don't need sleep or food, or water to work, psych warfare advantage (people are more accepting of known dangers than to known unknown dangers), they even work when you are not there.
Con's- you could forget where they are :ohdear: , way more time required to make effective (one Punji trap isn't gonna suffice you need a field), potential for self harm.

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taipan821 wrote:
Australian weather, flora and fauna...bring it on twizzler, who needs weapons when you could use a croc :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Think tools for outdoor work. No background checks, available to all. Machetes, axes, shovels, baseball bats, crowbars...bow and arrow? Play any zombie survival game, check out nongun weapons. its actually not a bad idea.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:21 am 
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We have a great historical record of the development of human arms [and armor]. Look at your situation and limitations, then determine what is the most advanced weapon you can own [build] within those parameters.

A matchlock is very easy to build and in a “no gun zone” any bang should be off putting to an agressor.
There are even historical accounts of cannons being built out of wood. They had a short life span but they did work. A wooden cannon is still scary as shit if you are picking a fight with the owner and your side only has spears and clubs.
After that crossbows or longbows, pole weapons, spears and the time honored practice of taking farm tools and making them into weapons.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:30 am 
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i THINK A CROSSBOW OR A SWORD OR A SLINGSHOT OR TASER


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:44 am 
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Hokicake wrote:
i THINK A CROSSBOW OR A SWORD OR A SLINGSHOT OR TASER


The idea is what would be easily on hand in a country whose gun laws are more restrictive.

In Australia
Crossbow - category M License
Sword - single edge only
Slingshot - illegal
Taser - illegal

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:44 am 
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Lead pipe
Candlestick
Rope
Poison
Knife
Other than those, I don't have a clue.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:30 am 
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yossarian wrote:
Lead pipe
Candlestick
Rope
Poison
Knife
Other than those, I don't have a clue.

:clap: :clap:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:00 am 
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yossarian wrote:
Lead pipe
Candlestick
Rope
Poison
Knife
Other than those, I don't have a clue.


Maybe a pipe wrench?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Dumb question, and elephant in the room, of the thread. Why not pick a hobby that can be used for self defense? A single shot, gas pipe, and generally illegal zip gun is going to at a severe disadvantage against anything more modern then a pilum, let alone a modern archer with a rangefinder. A sword or axe in the hands of an amateur is going to lose against a length of closet rod in the hands of a kung fu (bartisu, cannes d'combat, kendo, iado, single stick, etc) practitioner.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:46 pm 
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cars

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:29 am 
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taipan821 wrote:
cars


My car won't fit in my living room.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:56 am 
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taipan821 wrote:
cars

Care to elaborate? When I think cars in a PAW, I think Mad Max or an armadillo.


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