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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:45 pm 
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Jeriah wrote:
Would it be a good idea or a bad one to draw BOTH pistol and pepper spray, and hold the pepper spray in your non-dominant hand, and do a sort of flashlight-supported grip with it? So you could pepper spray the guy and shoot him if that doesn't work?


I was thinking more along the lines of using my non-dominant hand to spray a huge cloud of Pepper Spray between me and the aggressor. Shooting through the cloudy haze at him, and ending with a cart-wheeling somersault through the haze where I round-house kick him in the jaw where he's on the floor and I'm standing over his lifeless body holding a Bruce Lee pose. And then of course, all the hot chicks in the store come over and run their hands all over my bulging chest.

Whoa...I blacked out. Where am I? How long was I gone?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Why are you getting into a physical confrontation with a customer?
If he's getting that unruly you ask him to leave the store.
If he refuses you call the police to have him removed and charged with trespassing.

What you do not want is to voluntarily engage in mutual assault. Then you both get to go to jail unless the DA decides otherwise.

IMHO, pepper spray is what you carry if you aren't allowed to have a gun. If I can leave and get away from the attacker, I leave. If I can't get free of the attacker or subdue him without grievous injury to myself then he's likely to be shot as presenting a serious and credible threat to me of death or serious injury. Then I'd again call LEO, followed by my attorney who will be present before I make any statements to LE.

Overall, I'd really really rather not have to go there, so I'm willing to go a long way to avoid a physical confrontation, but I'm not mucking about with pepper spray. The situation either calls for lethal force or it doesn't.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:12 pm 
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I asked him to leave. He was quite angry and showed much aggression. There was no fight. This situation made me start thinking about a scenario where I would have to. That may very well happen considering where my work is located and what type of establishment it is.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:07 pm 
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bigmattdaddywack wrote:
Also dude you are in Texas, I am in Missouri. We have good gun and defense laws in Missouri, but not as good as Texas.
In Missouri if you buy a bottle of whiskey you dont get a gun for free :D



good play sir, good play. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Having the option of pepper spray is a good idea. Understanding the legal limitations is also a good idea.

Keep in mind that on a significant minority of the population, OC spray will have no effect other than to cause them to kick your ass harder.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:56 pm 
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bigmattdaddywack wrote:
Also dude you are in Texas, I am in Missouri. We have good gun and defense laws in Missouri, but not as good as Texas.
In Missouri if you buy a bottle of whiskey you dont get a gun for free :D


I knew I forgot something when I was at the liquor store... :lol:

Honestly, if someone is coming at me in a way that I personally feel pepper spray is justified, I would probably be justified in using lethal force in Texas. If I'm using pepper spray, you better believe I'm feeling very threatened. Then again, I'm female and look sweet and innocent, so there are probably very few males who would not be considered to be using a lethal force if they came at me unarmed. Sad, but true, even though there's probably a few of them whom I could escape or kill unarmed.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:58 pm 
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TDW586 wrote:
Keep in mind that on a significant minority of the population, OC spray will have no effect other than to cause them to kick your ass harder.


A friend of mine was accidentally sprayed with it. He thought it was a defective canister. Then again, he eats habaneros like they're candy. *twitch*

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:03 pm 
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back before i carried i worked in philly and a couple of times when i was getting followed by some bum in the underground concourse at night i'd just take my pepper spray out of my pocket, it made it easier to keep distance between me and them :)


i couldn't just break out my Glock because a bum asked me for a $20..... as much as i'd like to.

that said this was back in the days when i had a Pt111 and 300 rounds of bird shot

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:11 pm 
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If you have to use shoot someone with the gun, will the situation be worse for you if you have the pepper spray? I.e. will the prosecutor say "he could have used the pepper spray, but instead he shot that poor man dead with his gun"?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:19 pm 
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StorminMormon wrote:

Quote:
For it to be aggravated, you have to inflict bodily harm.


Hmmn...uhh...that depends and varies from state to state.

For example, if I kicked you with just my bare feet or I had tennis shoes on, that would not be considered aggravated battery/assault. However, in some other states, if I had boots on and I kicked you, it could be considered aggravated.

I think somewhere thrown in there is if there is obviously a large disparity in force, like you are knocked to the ground, and you're not readily able to defend yourself, and I try to stomp you, then I think that is also aggravated.

But...BUT!! I say all that with this caveat. I am not a lawyer.

Someone mentioned earlier about their state law being rather ambiguous...that is done on purpose...if it was more black and white, then there wouldn't be as much of a need for lawyers, right? :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Again, I think that if each of you carefully read your state laws, I think you'll find that there are certain criteria that have to be met for you to legally use lethal force. Your job, as the Defendant, will be to prove that situation. If you feel that you can - fine. However, even if you win a criminal trial - you will most likely lose your civil trial. Some woman is going to come forth and scream through her tears "That man shot my baby!".

And a jury of your peers may decide to award damages to her because you couldn't just walk away from a bad situation. Look, I've been carrying for 5 years, and will continue to carry until the day I die.

I think it would be prudent for any person who carries a gun to frequently go over in their mind different situations and how they should be dealt with. You won't have the ability to make far-reaching deeply analyzed decisions in that moment. You take situation A where someone is "messing" with me in some way, I may choose to use Pepper Spray, or my fists, or just walk away. You take that same situation A, but instead of the aggressor messing with me - they are messing with my wife or one of my kids. You better believe that gun is coming out.

I like to call it the Nuclear Option. Seriously though, I've had to tell myself frequently whether it be me or my family at risk - I have to keep a cool head. If the situation calls for a gun, I have no problem pulling - but if I can avoid it, I need to. For my well-being, and for my family's - I need to avoid it at all cost.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:06 pm 
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LowKey wrote:
Why are you getting into a physical confrontation with a customer?
If he's getting that unruly you ask him to leave the store.
If he refuses you call the police to have him removed and charged with trespassing.

What you do not want is to voluntarily engage in mutual assault. Then you both get to go to jail unless the DA decides otherwise.

IMHO, pepper spray is what you carry if you aren't allowed to have a gun. If I can leave and get away from the attacker, I leave. If I can't get free of the attacker or subdue him without grievous injury to myself then he's likely to be shot as presenting a serious and credible threat to me of death or serious injury. Then I'd again call LEO, followed by my attorney who will be present before I make any statements to LE.

Overall, I'd really really rather not have to go there, so I'm willing to go a long way to avoid a physical confrontation, but I'm not mucking about with pepper spray. The situation either calls for lethal force or it doesn't.


As a former (and kind of current) bouncer - yes. In many legal ways, engaging in fighting with another means you are now not defending yourself. It may be as easy as some witness testifying:
Witness: "The one really mad customer guy said 'let's go outside then, fucker!!' and the employee said 'OK' and they went outsdie and fought."

16 years of bouncing and never, ever has someone pulled a gun on me or have I ever thought to myself, "Wow, I should carry a gun." I understand that guns do have a very important place in the self-defense roll but daily workplace, in a building, in a customer/employee dispute, with full access to security/police/etc. is low on the list IMO. That said, I'm pretty good at physical violence and tussling with drunks.

Also, in the State of Oregon, getting into a fist (or somehting else) fight while concealed carrying is a pretty bad thing to do. That's what they teach you in the required class at least.

On top of that, all the times I have seen, heard about, got shot with or used pepper spray have ended in comedy and fail. I have deemed it close to useless.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:10 pm 
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bigmattdaddywack wrote:
I was about to get into a physical confrontation with an asshole customer at my work. I realized that since I was carrying (I have my bosses' 110% permission), a physical fight would not be a good idea due to the big chance of my gun falling out of my possession.

It dawned on me that when I go out I am not always going to be threatened by physical harm from only armed assailants. It would be very illegal for me to use deadly force(my gun) on unarmed threats. So now I carry pepper spray every time I go out so I can neutralize, or hope to, unarmed attackers. I aint that small or pretty, but prison scares the living shit out of me a whole hell of a lot.

Also the idea of macing a total douche-bag into total agony gives me great pleasure.


I saw this thread earlier today, and thought that while it might raise some eyebrows, I would leave it alone...however since someone flagged it, and you are freshly on probation, I'm stopping in to share my thoughts...more as another ZS forum member than a mod...

I don't start fights with people, even assholes, that come into my place of business to yell at me...I politely ask them to leave, and call the cops if they don't...it's bad for my ongoing employment prospects if I taser or pepper-spray or shoot them, but more importantly, I don't want to go to court/jail for injuring those same assholes when there are perfectly good cops at the other end of the phone who are paid to deal with that level of hassle...in 20 years of of this sort of work (which has included a unreasonable number of assholes, lots of them yelling), this plan has worked without fail...I'm not advocating this level of passivity in all parts of your life, but in the workplace it keeps my boss, my family, and my under-employed legal team happy...lethal, and even non-lethal force in the workplace can almost always be avoided and/or made to be someone else's problem...

While I often take some small measure of joy from inappropriate thoughts of inflicting pain and/or pleasure on the people I walk through this world with, I generally don't share those thoughts with strangers on the internet...

JMHO

Jamie

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:52 pm 
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A note on the legal issues of dual lethal/LTL carry.

While the laws do vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, there are a few things that are universal to this issue (with a few exceptions)

In a less than lethal situation, a person may only use force if they believe they are in imminent danger of physical harm, and retreat is not possible, or in the defense of another in the same situation: alter ego defense. (a few states have "stand-your-ground" laws that exempt a person from retreating if they have a legal right to be where they are). You may resist as long as the threat is still imminent. However, if you down the guy and continue to wail away on him, you have committed aggravated assault and will most likely be charged, so hitting your attacker with pepper spray once he's feeling the effects of the first face-full will probably get your ass arrested.

A person may respond with lethal force when they believe that they or someone else is in reasonable fear of serious physical injury or death. It does not matter if you have less than lethal means of subduing the attacker. A man holding a pistol or a knife is still considered to be an imminent threat even if they are blinded by pepper spray, as they are still armed with a deadly weapon. However, the imminent threat protection ends if the person drops their weapon.

It is important to note that if you respond to any physical threat, you must contact the local LEAs and file a police report to protect your self-defense rights. The incident will be investigated, even if the investigation only consists of interviews or a review of obvious evidence.

Also, if you respond with lethal force, you can be sure that the incident will be investigated to make sure the response was justified. If you kill someone, you will spend some time in the local PD explaining yourself. The manslaughter laws are sufficiently vague that you may be charged with a crime even if the shooting was justified (Killing someone is not taken lightly by the Powers That Be). If that is the case, you will be arrested, charged, and put on trial, where self defense may be offered as an affirmative defense.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:32 pm 
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For my comment about taking pleasure in macing I apologize. i did not know it would offend. I am sorry.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:33 pm 
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What makes you say all that, darkaxel?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:42 pm 
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I did not start a fight, and I must say I handled the situation poorly. It did not last long so calling the police was not necessary. I am not a bouncer.
I was one at another place which was quite rough that gave me certain bad habits about treating "problem" customers. I have since changed my course of action regarding these situations.
I have not had to deal with another situation like this one.
All I was meaning to bring up was the fact that pulling a gun on an unarmed attacker or physically fighting someone while carrying is not a good idea usually, and that mace could stop the situation non-lethally and relatively nonviolently.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:26 am 
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^^^That made me LOL!

Where were the tazers?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:29 am 
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JamesCannon wrote:
What makes you say all that, darkaxel?



I spent many years as a security guard of the observe/report type and a couple years as an access control/asset protection/ personal protection officer, and I had to learn all this crap in training. You'd be surprised at some of the things that can get you arrested. For example, using a baton on someone is only legal if you hit them in the meaty parts of their body, like the back of their thighs or their ass, unless they are trying to kill you.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:49 am 
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One thing I'll add to this...
- If you pepper spray someone, they must be guilty, because they were pepper sprayed.
- If you shoot someone, the shooter is usually guilty of something and will have hassle to deal with on the lethal force issue.

I'm sure police must get complaints about aggravated assault where someone was out jogging, minding their own business, and got peppersprayed. How many moives feature some old grandma type person spraying someone who did not deserve it? Funny ha ha ha right?... but I would guess that there's a gender bias with pepper spray. If you're a guy, and a female sprays you... odds are you'll get no sympathy from the LEOs and will be treated as if a bad guy. If you spray another guy, the other guy is going to be presumed guilty of something.

To be honest, if you're carrying a gun and pepper spray... maybe you should rethink your personal defense. It seems a lot of stuff to be carrying around. Why not just stick to CCW and get some self-defense training?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:32 pm 
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EricinMaryland wrote:
...To be honest, if you're carrying a gun and pepper spray... maybe you should rethink your personal defense. It seems a lot of stuff to be carrying around. Why not just stick to CCW and get some self-defense training?


While I was protecting a mine's property during a strike, I never ran across just one striking miner. They ran in packs of five or more: big guys who would try to intimidate me even though I was openly carrying a pistol and a can of pepper spray the size of a small fire extinguisher. A few got pepper sprayed for their trouble. After that I radioed in to the guard shack and had the supervisor call the police and send me some help. Without that can of pepper spray I doubt any self-defense ninja skillz could have prevented my ass from getting stomped.

Because of those experiences, I think carrying pepper spray along with a CCW does give you flexibly to respond to a LTL situation, especially if you find yourself confronted by multiple attackers. Hand-to-hand combat skills are handy to have, but even the hardcore martial arts that teach techniques for fighting off multiple assailants (like Krav Maga), teach that it is better to have a weapon like pepper spray than to try to fight off more than one guy.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:12 pm 
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Oh yeah, pepper spray against multiple attackers is a great way to buy some time and avoid shooting people. But, that's not the scenario described in this thread. You were openly carrying and didn't want to shoot anyone. It's awesome you had pepper spray. I'm sure that when those guys you sprayed look back on it, they're grateful you used spray instead of your firearm. However, for someone that's just carrying who finds themselves in trouble, to also be carrying pepper spray seems excessive while doing other things. The job you describe, defending property, would also make sense to have a taser, baton, etc. The more options the merrier in a guard scenario. Frankly, your employer sucks for not having given you a good old fashioned water cannon.

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Last edited by EricinVirginia on Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:50 pm 
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This goes good along with the pcp man. God knows what his problem is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqRQ0VRRO9Y
Were they all firing tazers, or was it something else? Seemed to have no real effect.
Funny as hell though :lol: .

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