Give a thought to us Brits

For those who live in areas where firearms are not an option and those that are smart enough to have a back up.

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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by Stercutus » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:12 am

Be great to hear your thoughts on this
I'll chime in too.

It always comes as a shock when people come to realize that the police don't actually make the laws. The police may or may not have discretion when enforcing certain laws. One is a legal question the other a political question.

I could give an opinion on knife laws. It's about the same as my opinion on gun laws and drug laws whatever that is. Doesn't matter what I think. Doesn't matter if the law is sucky. The law is what the legislature provided. Don't like it? Contact your representative and pester him until he changes it. Bitching to the police for doing their job is not really going to accomplish much.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:22 am

I merely stated a commonly held belief which is prominent in my country.
The Police may not make the laws but its the way they carry out their duties which makes many here question their (The Police's) alliegance, remember the Police are paid by the State to carry out their wishes, they are not paid to assist the Public, but to control them.
In my childhood we were told if we were scared to find a Policeman, these days children are not told this.
this is my personal opinion and belief based on events that have happened in my country.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by the_alias » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:16 am

Stercutus wrote:
Be great to hear your thoughts on this
I'll chime in too.

It always comes as a shock when people come to realize that the police don't actually make the laws. The police may or may not have discretion when enforcing certain laws. One is a legal question the other a political question.

I could give an opinion on knife laws. It's about the same as my opinion on gun laws and drug laws whatever that is. Doesn't matter what I think. Doesn't matter if the law is sucky. The law is what the legislature provided. Don't like it? Contact your representative and pester him until he changes it. Bitching to the police for doing their job is not really going to accomplish much.
Nothing I didn't know or agree with.

Just curious to hear from NYPD member we have. I know some places have more discretion than others when it comes to things like this. I read the article and was surprise, basically now if I ever visit NYC I'll pretend I'm in the UK with its restrictive knife laws. I don't want to get put in jail because of a badly worded law that officers seem keen to enforce.

I respect the Police, it's a difficult job.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:30 am

I used to respect the Police back when I was a kid. different breed of cop back then.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by jor-el » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:15 pm



Here is the video of an American Cop offering himself to be a human shield during the San Bernadino incident.

Are you claiming that British police officers would not do the same, or not equipped to do the same?
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by sheddi » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:34 pm

I'm going to do a bit of preventative moderating and remind you all that if this thread descends into cop bashing it'll be locked and sanctions taken against the guilty parties.

Thank you for your attention.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by jor-el » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:39 pm

grumpyviking wrote:I doubt it, and the London Police force is called The Metropolitan Police not the Metro PD!
1) You want to hear my thoughts?
You Brits live under a very different culture and legal system from the CONUS.
I'm not as certain you live with a representative government as we do. Your history didn't start with a revolt. We have no Lords.

Your legal system regards self defense and what constitutes weapons would be absolutely intolerable to me. I sure wasn't raised in it, nor accept its rationale.

I'm guessing it's not so acceptable to you either, or you wouldn't be asking for advice.

2) Advice. There's nothing I can offer so long as something so innocuous as a cricket bat can't be simply left near the couch or the bed without severe mental gymnastics and a glib tongue to justify its presence. This needs to change.

You can also stop with any corrections of spelling or grammar. Whether I spell it London Metro PD or met p or .govuk cop it is my choice. Deal with it.

On the subject of NYC and the NYPD, I'll remind you they have arrested police from other jurisdictions for CCW violations before even with LEOSA in effect. They still confiscate guns from their own cops when they visit Ground Zero. They and the city are probably the closest thing to British coppers and London you will see in the CONUS.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:50 am

jor-el wrote:
grumpyviking wrote:I doubt it, and the London Police force is called The Metropolitan Police not the Metro PD!
1) You want to hear my thoughts?
You Brits live under a very different culture and legal system from the CONUS.
I'm not as certain you live with a representative government as we do. Your history didn't start with a revolt. We have no Lords.

Your legal system regards self defense and what constitutes weapons would be absolutely intolerable to me. I sure wasn't raised in it, nor accept its rationale.

I'm guessing it's not so acceptable to you either, or you wouldn't be asking for advice.

2) Advice. There's nothing I can offer so long as something so innocuous as a cricket bat can't be simply left near the couch or the bed without severe mental gymnastics and a glib tongue to justify its presence. This needs to change.

You can also stop with any corrections of spelling or grammar. Whether I spell it London Metro PD or met p or .govuk cop it is my choice. Deal with it.

On the subject of NYC and the NYPD, I'll remind you they have arrested police from other jurisdictions for CCW violations before even with LEOSA in effect. They still confiscate guns from their own cops when they visit Ground Zero. They and the city are probably the closest thing to British coppers and London you will see in the CONUS.
I will repeat myself, for clarification, during the 2011 "London" Riots the Police were withdrawn "for their own safety" leaving people in flats(apartments) above burning shops having to jump for their lives wearing just the clothes on their backs, no help was coming.
they were asked to go into an area where several businesses had been looted and were on fire but they refused.
as far as your "Metro PD" remark is concerned, unlike you Yanks we don't shorten anything, the official title of the London Police is The Metropilitan Police, we do not in any shape or form refer to our respective Police as Police DEPARTMENTS, for instance my local Police are called Devon and Cornwall Police, not department, not force, plain and simple.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by jor-el » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:16 am

grumpyviking wrote: The Metropilitan Police
Now I've got you doing it. :rofl:

You want to call your own po-po cowards for withdrawing from a riot that's fine; I'm sure its "nevah been dun befo".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_ ... eparations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riot

Law Enforcement acts at the pleasure of its government. They give LE their marching or retreat orders. If your bobbies abandoned people to their fates, your city government told them to. CHANGE IT. That will do more for you than cricket bats or kitchen knives.

A government that considers its people expendable and obsolete is obsolete.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:34 am

jor-el wrote:
grumpyviking wrote: The Metropilitan Police
Now I've got you doing it. :rofl:

You want to call your own po-po cowards for withdrawing from a riot that's fine; I'm sure its "nevah been dun befo".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_ ... eparations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riot

Law Enforcement acts at the pleasure of its government. They give LE their marching or retreat orders. If your bobbies abandoned people to their fates, your city government told them to. CHANGE IT. That will do more for you than cricket bats or kitchen knives.

A government that considers its people expendable and obsolete is obsolete.
In any case, talk of what the Police do or don't do is academic, pretty soon we wont have any Police except in the cities, the Police numbers have already been halved in my region of the country, due to "budget cuts", now within the next 5 years all the rural and small town Police stations are to be closed, I already haven't seen a Policeman to SPEAK to for over 16 years, pretty soon even seeing one will be a non event, I live in a rural area and we sort out our own problems anyway.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by Black Beard » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:06 am

Ad'lan wrote:
Zimmy wrote:Bows and quarterstaffs come to mind when I think of the U.K.
As someone who has trained in both... while effective, they aren't what I'd pick over a firearm, and they have many of the same legal issues. We are only allowed to use reasonable force in self defence.

Yes, we have tight controls on firearms, but a more important control was when it was decided that "reasonable force" did not include shooting them (I think this can be dated to the 50's), then did not include preparing a tool to use, then began to include a duty to retreat, which has since faded somewhat. None of these decisions were made by our legislature, but by the police and judiciary in their precedents set on different legal cases. It's also why folding knives can't have locks without being an offensive weapon.

So, if I were to grab my bow from off the wall, string it at the top of my stairs and knock and release an arrow at the burly figure breaking through my landladys door... well, I wouldn't fancy my chances in court, because of the amount of prior planning and thought I have clearly put into putting down someone potentially "only" burgling the place.

Much better to forget to put away your cricket bat, or your grandfathers steel golf clubs. To grab in your fear and instinct at your antique bayonet display and administer first aid after the robber ran upon your steel in his haste to assault you.


If you are threatened, and someone in your house mentions using your firearms, the police can and have taken them away to stop you. If you stab an armed robber with their knife, you will be brought to trial (fortunately he was found innocent. Trial by Jury is an important right). The tide is changing, slowly and my own experiences (chasing down a burglar and holding him by force) are pretty positive, but this is climate we have to think in.
thesmurf wrote:I've never seen a gun in real life, or even picked up a gun, let alone fired one - think I would be more hazardous to myself than a zombie attacking!
Plenty of clubs have open days if you are interested in becoming a shooter, and it's a fun and rewarding hobby. Experience and having to clean the dam things thoroughly demystified firearms for me.
woodsghost wrote:Also Brits have access to firearms, as I understand. Folks will have to correct me if I"m wrong, but I believe Brits can have shotguns which hold a maximum of 3 rounds and can only buy birdshot.

Additional licencing and a lot of headache will, as I understand, let you own some other firearms.
AFAIK, Slugs are the only shotgun ammunition you can't have on a Shotgun Certificate.
This is wrong. The law on carrying weapons apples to public places. Your home is not a public place. As long as your actions are not "grossly disproportionate" (such as stabbing an unconscous person) you can use a weapon (but not a gun) to defend yourself in your home. You don't have to accidentially find a golf club or any such nonsense in your own home. Check out the CPS website for a proper legal information.

You can not carry anything in a public place with intent to harm or threaten another person.

You can't have some of the larger buckshot sizes in shotgun shells without a firearms certificate.

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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by Stercutus » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:14 am

grumpyviking wrote:
jor-el wrote:
grumpyviking wrote: The Metropilitan Police
Now I've got you doing it. :rofl:

You want to call your own po-po cowards for withdrawing from a riot that's fine; I'm sure its "nevah been dun befo".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_ ... eparations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riot

Law Enforcement acts at the pleasure of its government. They give LE their marching or retreat orders. If your bobbies abandoned people to their fates, your city government told them to. CHANGE IT. That will do more for you than cricket bats or kitchen knives.

A government that considers its people expendable and obsolete is obsolete.
In any case, talk of what the Police do or don't do is academic, pretty soon we wont have any Police except in the cities, the Police numbers have already been halved in my region of the country, due to "budget cuts", now within the next 5 years all the rural and small town Police stations are to be closed, I already haven't seen a Policeman to SPEAK to for over 16 years, pretty soon even seeing one will be a non event, I live in a rural area and we sort out our own problems anyway.
And yet not ten posts ago you were complaining about how the police were running your life and controlling you. How are they doing that; telepathy?
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:15 am

Black Beard wrote:As long as your actions are not "grossly disproportionate" (such as stabbing an unconscous person) you can use a weapon (but not a gun) to defend yourself in your home. You don't have to accidentially find a golf club or any such nonsense in your own home. Check out the CPS website for a proper legal information.



BB
that's all pretty academic when the nearest Police will be at least an hours drive away.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:19 am

Stercutus wrote:
And yet not ten posts ago you were complaining about how the police were running your life and controlling you. How are they doing that; telepathy?
I don't think I ever said they were running MY life, it was a statement about police actions in general.
no we are pretty law abiding down here in the Devon countryside, what I was referring to (the 2011 riots) happened in London and to a lesser extent in one or two other big cities.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by Black Beard » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:46 am

grumpyviking wrote:
Black Beard wrote:As long as your actions are not "grossly disproportionate" (such as stabbing an unconscous person) you can use a weapon (but not a gun) to defend yourself in your home. You don't have to accidentially find a golf club or any such nonsense in your own home. Check out the CPS website for a proper legal information.



BB
that's all pretty academic when the nearest Police will be at least an hours drive away.
But that is why it is not academic. This is a website about preparedness and within your own home, you can be prepared to defend yourself. You don't have to hide and hope that the police will turn up.

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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:57 am

Black Beard wrote:
But that is why it is not academic. This is a website about preparedness and within your own home, you can be prepared to defend yourself. You don't have to hide and hope that the police will turn up.
yes but we have to use something called "reasonable" force and nobody has defined what that is, one persons reasonable might be anothers excessive.
when your fighting off an intruder, with your cricket bat, the difference might be whether you sit in a jail cell for the next several years.
batter someone around the head with a cricket bat and the Police will turn up have no doubt, even if it is hours after the fact, several cases have occurred where the criminal has been treated by the Police as the victim and the householder arrested.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by Black Beard » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:05 am

There is plenty of information on what reasonable behavour is. Try google.

Being arrested doesn't mean being prosecuted and locked up. The police have to find out what has gone on. Treating a injured person is reasonable to. Would you prefer that the police didn't establish the facts and let an injured person bleed to death?

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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by Stercutus » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:41 am

The Police may not make the laws but its the way they carry out their duties which makes many here question their (The Police's) alliegance, remember the Police are paid by the State to carry out their wishes, they are not paid to assist the Public, but to control them.
How can they do this if you never see them?
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:19 am

Stercutus wrote:
The Police may not make the laws but its the way they carry out their duties which makes many here question their (The Police's) alliegance, remember the Police are paid by the State to carry out their wishes, they are not paid to assist the Public, but to control them.
How can they do this if you never see them?
I don't have to see them to know the way they act, its fairly common knowledge what happened in the riots.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:22 am

Black Beard wrote:There is plenty of information on what reasonable behavour is. Try google.

Being arrested doesn't mean being prosecuted and locked up. The police have to find out what has gone on. Treating a injured person is reasonable to. Would you prefer that the police didn't establish the facts and let an injured person bleed to death?

BB
anybody who burgles my house does not deserve my sympathy.
in this country the Police are not paramedics, we leave that to the Ambulance Service.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by Asymetryczna » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:06 am

Ad'lan wrote:So, if I were to grab my bow from off the wall, string it at the top of my stairs and knock and release an arrow at the burly figure breaking through my landladys door... well, I wouldn't fancy my chances in court, because of the amount of prior planning and thought I have clearly put into putting down someone potentially "only" burgling the place.
Although some might find it unfair that you single out the burly people as being potentially more aggressive toward doors, I did find something that you wrote (highlighted) which caught my eye with regard to the original question about being creative in one's security. Until all of the power is shut off, people will tend to use the world wide web fairly quickly to search for information. Ergo, in my mind it seems self-defeating to post pictures and claims online that describes exactly how, and with what, one would go about providing a proper defense of one's self. This is not to say that one should not plan for it and constantly update the plan. Security for an army or a man/woman (think of your brain as higher HQ) means reaction time.

A person might consider everlasting truisms gleaned from tedious research. See: http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/blog/ ... of-combat/, for instance. A person might also look further and determine how that one particular researcher's life ended for yet another statistic for firearm knowledge.

Lastly, a person might not fret constantly about the lack of firearms. One suggestion that worked for me last year in the UK and other parts of Europe was to get outside as much as possible. Because I like long walks I found that a nice stout walking stick came in handy. I purchased a nice one within 2 days of arriving at Heathrow. Because it could be disassembled and I have limpalotia when I have to use public transportation (planes,trains,automobiles) it went everywhere that I did.
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by B&Q » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:03 am

grumpyviking wrote:I merely stated a commonly held belief which is prominent in my country.
...
You do an awful lot of talking on behalf of other people in the UK. People who, in other posts, you make it clear you despise.

You are not a spokesman for anyone other than yourself. Please stop pretending otherwise. If I wanted someone to speak for me, I would choose a person with a bit more firepower in the old noggin.

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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by Asymetryczna » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:11 am

B&Q, although I respect your claim to the Right of Self Determination, discussion of who speaks for whom treads on shifting sands.
If it continues people may start [re]taunting the French.

It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by jor-el » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:26 pm

So what is the crux of this thread?

Self defense in the UK divorced from firearms?

Apparently your spokesperson grumpyviking claims there are no police available OTHER than to prosecute and jail any stalwart defender; that just asking for the advice on this thread will create joinder for constructive possession for future prosecution; that he despises both the police and many of the members of this board for even bringing up the topic. And not the spelling bee champion of the UK.

I believe the negative advice has been done to death. The only positive is to change how your government views self determination and individual self defense.
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