Give a thought to us Brits

For those who live in areas where firearms are not an option and those that are smart enough to have a back up.

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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by the_alias » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:03 am

quazi wrote:So do you actually have to prove you regularly engage in hobbies that you have the equipment for? Like if you were to whack a home invader with a cricket bat would you need to have a bunch of other cricket paraphernalia and be able to show that you at least occasionally play in cricket games? Or is just a pretext generally good enough? "I keep that ice axe beside my bed because some day I'd like to climb Everest!"

Is it more a matter of convincing the law enforcement officials or of convincing members of a jury?

If someone were to take up a hobby that involved purpose-built weapons, like HEMA and sword collecting, do you think they would be able to get away with using them for self defense? Or would a jury probably convict them for being a crazy weirdo compared to a "normal" cricket player? Does this vary depending on where you live? In some places in the U.S. if you shoot someone in self defense local prosecutors will supposedly go after you on principle and you have to worry about jurors judging you on how scary your weapon looks and how evil-sounding the name of your ammunition is. In other places firearms ownership is commonplace and nobody really gives a shit what gun you use or if you hand loaded your ammunition.
*Or so I've been told, I haven't done too much research into this.
I wouldn't trust the CPS to make the right decision on prosecution. The important thing is to be both truthful and consistent in your truthful story.
You are far more likely to be taken to trial by the CPS in the UK than in the US, although thankfully under recent governments they have been instructed to change that. The UK government almost lets you defend yourself now :roll:

There is probably going to be variation in places with jury selection as in the US.

When I was at Uni I kept all my wooden martial arts weapons in my room, student house no other storage space. If someone had broken into attack me and I'd picked one up to defend myself from death or serious harm I'm sure with the right lawyer this shouldn't be a problem. It should be no different than being attacked in the kitchen and grabbing a knife/heavy pot.

At the end of the day though I'll always rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:04 am

in the UK a cricket bat or a baseball bat would be classed as a "weapon" and is not allowed, if you were sitting in a chair with your walking stick by your side and someone broke it you would be allowed to use your walking stick, also we have to use something called "reasonable force" but nobody has really defined what that is.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by the_alias » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:11 am

grumpyviking wrote:in the UK a cricket bat or a baseball bat would be classed as a "weapon" and is not allowed, if you were sitting in a chair with your walking stick by your side and someone broke it you would be allowed to use your walking stick, also we have to use something called "reasonable force" but nobody has really defined what that is.
Bit misleading.

The onus is still on the police or CPS to prove intent to use it as a weapon. So if you have your cricket gear lying around after coming home from practice when something happens it is different.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:42 am

maybe but if you use said cricket bat you will be arrested, put in a police cell and questioned.
whether it goes to court is rather a moot point.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by Ad'lan » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:57 am

grumpyviking wrote:maybe but if you use said cricket bat you will be arrested, put in a police cell and questioned.
whether it goes to court is rather a moot point.
As someone who has been arrested and then released without charge, it is a huge difference and by no means a moot point. I have never been to court or charged with a crime.

The walking stick could also be a weapon, circumstances are important. When you say not allowed, can you clarify what you mean? I tried my best to explain how intent affects legality.

So carrying a cricket bat or walking stick with the intent to use it as a weapon - crime.
Carrying a cricket bat or walking stick for a legitimate reason and using it instinctively in self defence - not a crime depending on how reasonable force applies to the situation.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:03 am

I think it all depends on how the Copper that attends is feeling at that moment and what kind of a day he had, as to how far he decides to take it and again how severely you may have injured the other person.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by the_alias » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:30 am

grumpyviking wrote:maybe but if you use said cricket bat you will be arrested, put in a police cell and questioned.
whether it goes to court is rather a moot point.
Yes, why would you be surprised?

You shoot someone in self defense in the US you could very well be arrested as well and spend the night in a police cell.

Getting arrested is one thing, in some cases it's a formality. What comes later is important.

Going to court is not "moot point" it is the entire point. :roll:
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:36 am

I think you should EXPECT to go to court, these days, not going to court will be the exception.
The Police are not your friends, they are employed to get convictions not solve crime.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by jor-el » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:22 pm

grumpyviking wrote:I think you should EXPECT to go to court, these days, not going to court will be the exception.
The Police are not your friends, they are employed to get convictions not solve crime.
Now, this is going to be another divergence between Americans and Britons.

There are daily occurrences of people legally armed acting within the accords of local and state law to defend themselves and others. In all cases the defending parties provide statements to the police with the assistance of legal counsel, and frequently allowed to return to their homes to await the decision of a Grand Jury.
If a "No True Bill" is declared, the defending party is FREE and no further actions are made.

Even if a particularly vindictive District Attorney were to force a case to trial and drum up less than stellar evidence to support his case, Jury Nullification could still and has occurred.

I would be very interested in a response from one of your barristers to compare our respective legal systems on the matter.

Oh, and on this last point.
The Police are not your friends, they are employed to get convictions not solve crime.
Perhaps you are making the claim that police officers in the UK are hired and evaluated on their jack booted thug qualities. Would not getting a conviction SOLVE a crime? I'm not getting this.

Why was I hired? Not a clue. Well, a little clue. Probably some Affirmative Action, Safe Streets Safe City. They had their chance in the Academy when they asked for an essay on why I wanted to be a cop, and I answered "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". Meant something then, still means something to me at least.

Maybe you've heard stories of police acting to acheive a conviction with no regard for determining true guilt or innocence. That's the exception, not the rule. At least over here.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by shrapnel » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:27 pm

It would be really awesome if we could avoid having a pro/anti police discussion. Nobody is in trouble, just, you know, saying. :wink:
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by jor-el » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:46 pm

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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by Stercutus » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:53 pm

In the American system the police do their best to collect evidence and then hand it off to the DA or prosecutor. Any conviction that results is on the prosecutor. The police keep records for statistics but they are so involved with the present few at the police department really even notices when the rapist they arrested three years before trundles off to prison (despite whatever you saw in the movies).

Technically prosecutors and DA's may be "law enforcement officers" in the US, depending upon the state. But they don't perform any police functions and are not really police.

In my county in the last three years we have had two true defensive shootings. No one has gone to court, been prosecuted or even arrested (other than the attacker that is).

Occasionally there are other cases where the shooter claims self defense but it is not. Often times the evidence provides that they were arguing over illegal drugs. This is actually quite common as drug addicts are highly unpredictable and drug dealers are violently brutal and greedy. A shootout between two drug dealers is actually not a defensive shooting. If they are involved in a conspiracy to commit a crime and get to fighting about it this is a whole different thing.

So short of that or other unlawful circumstances surrounding the shoot I would not expect to go to court, at least not in my county.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by sheddi » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:04 pm

grumpyviking wrote:I think you should EXPECT to go to court, these days, not going to court will be the exception.
Whether you go to court or not will be the CPS's call, based on the evidence presented by the police, probability of a conviction and CPS opinion on whether it is in the public interest.

See Code for Crown Prosecutors:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/cod ... ction.html

And guidance on self defence:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by feanor » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:44 am

jor-el wrote:
Perhaps you are making the claim that police officers in the UK are hired and evaluated on their jack booted thug qualities. Would not getting a conviction SOLVE a crime? I'm not getting this.
Maybe you've heard stories of police acting to acheive a conviction with no regard for determining true guilt or innocence. That's the exception, not the rule. At least over here.
So you do get that getting a conviction and solving the crime are not the same thing.
Now it doesn't have to be pathological cynicism or a complete disregard for truth and/or justice or something even more nefarious that motivates the phenomenon that leads grumpy to the conclusion that coppers are only after convictions.
Even in sciences that deal with nothing but hard evidence a host biases are a real problem and they are a hell of a lot more trained in the pursuit of truth than any detective.
Up to 80% of studies are not repeatable I read somewhere, if that's even remotely true how do you think less trained peoples chances are at finding "the truth"?
Then think about what cops deal with in terms of evidence, not only biased malleable witnesses but also outright deceit. Given all this it's a wonder how cops get close to anything even resembling truth.
Can an inadvertently biased cop look like s/he's only after a conviction? I think grumpy's comment would indicate an affirmative on that one, but then again, I don't want to believe cops are that cynical or malicious so I'm biased to.
Make no mistake, we're all biased all the time.

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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:13 am

so people (Brits) on this forum are still under the flawed assumption the Police are here to protect us?
that went out the window a long time ago, have a burglary and the most you will get is a crime number for your insurance company, IF they do attend and its a big if, it will be something like 36-48 hours after the fact, a Copper will make a few notes and that is the last you will ever hear of it( I know people this has happened to, so i'm talking from their experience).
The Police Force of the United Kingdom has been reduced so much due to "budget cuts" you'll be lucky to see a copper outside of one of our big cities.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by the_alias » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:17 am

grumpyviking wrote:so people (Brits) on this forum are still under the flawed assumption the Police are here to protect us?
Nope. I don't see any other Brit here saying that.

Do you?
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:23 am

the_alias wrote:
grumpyviking wrote:so people (Brits) on this forum are still under the flawed assumption the Police are here to protect us?
Nope. I don't see any other Brit here saying that.

Do you?
no, I don't, it was a question hence the ? mark.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by jor-el » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:12 am

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/12/0 ... ore-you-do

Are you claiming that American police officers do not act to save lives, but to gather evidence to effect convictions at the cost of human lives and suffering?

Are you trying to say that if a similar situation were to occur in the UK, police would be more interested in gathering evidence than save lives? To sacrifice people to enhance incarceration rates?
Last edited by jor-el on Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:18 am

jor-el wrote:http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/12/0 ... ore-you-do

Are you trying to say that if a similar situation were to occur in the UK, police would be more interested in gathering evidence than save lives?
going on the "London Riots" of 2011 they seem to be more interested in saving their own skins than the lives or property of the public.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by jor-el » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:26 am

Is there a London Metro PD member on this site that could shed more light on the matter?
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:51 am

I doubt it, and the London Police force is called The Metropolitan Police not the Metro PD!
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by NamelessStain » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:59 am

Yea, there are all kinds of cultural idiosyncrasies like a "rubber" in the US is COMPLETELY different than the UK.
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by the_alias » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:29 am

jor-el wrote:http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/12/0 ... ore-you-do

Are you claiming that American police officers do not act to save lives, but to gather evidence to effect convictions at the cost of human lives and suffering?

Are you trying to say that if a similar situation were to occur in the UK, police would be more interested in gathering evidence than save lives? To sacrifice people to enhance incarceration rates?
Be great to hear your thoughts on this
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Re: Give a thought to us Brits

Post by grumpyviking » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:55 am

NamelessStain wrote:Yea, there are all kinds of cultural idiosyncrasies like a "rubber" in the US is COMPLETELY different than the UK.
yes, like Curtains here are Shades in the US
Silencers here are Mufflers there.
A Bonnet here is a Hood there.
A Boot here is a Trunk there.
A Bum here is your backside, there it is your Butt.
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