Firearms Issue

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Firearms Issue

Post by Noven » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:53 pm

I am cross-posting this from the AZZS sub-forum to get a wider audience to weigh in:
Well, short story and I want the armchair commandos here to weigh in.

I got my AZ CCW and I usually open carry since it is more comfortable and concealing a FNP-45 is a pain in the rear. Well, today I went to pick up my son (15 months old) from his pre-school. When I was about to leave, one of the teachers and the administration assistant cornered me, my wife and my child. The teacher threw a fit, saying that I was breaking the law, asked me if I knew what would have happened if there was a police officer there, and asked me if I knew what would happen if a child had gotten a hold of my pistol.

Well, I was a bit taken off by this whole situation since the pre-school is on private property, my wife's church. Since the church did not care about me packing, I saw no issue. Also, I did not see an issue since it is not a K-12 school where I would need to leave it in my car. I told her this, and she said "that does not matter, it a school." Well I told her that was not the case, and that of course I knew what would happen should a child get a hold of a fire arm since.... wait for it... I have a child at home and I own firearms :lol:

Well, I asked if there was a school policy about firearms, and she said that I would need to talk to the school administrator tomorrow, which I might. Also, know that I really don't think it matters since it is private property and the church board would need to put that policy in effect. Anyhoo, I got home and looked up ARS 13-3102, and section A, part 12 says prohibited from carrying on:

"Possessing a deady weapon on school grounds;"

At the end of the statute, it gives the definition of "school"

"School" means a public or nonpublic kindergarten program, common school or high school.

Since the private property run pre-school does not fit into any of these areas, I figure that I am good.... like I thought I was.

What do you guys think?

Note: here is the full statute, http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03102.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by TacAir » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:05 pm

Put together a statement NOW and give it to the church board ASAP - no sense in letting a nosey ***** get in ahead of you.

Mention the AZ law (and you might be wrong, best to check with a (shudder) lawyer)
That you have legal advice backing you
Wonder when the one teacher was setting school policy, and not the administrator.


CAUTION: DO NOT carry to the school again until this is sorted out. Remeber Erik Scott in Las Vegas.......

YMMV
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Noven » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:19 pm

What did that guy do in Las Vegas?
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Jester79 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:36 pm

I had a situation similar a few years ago in another locale. Basically what had happened was that the person who confronted me was trying to enforce what they thought "should" be law, not what the actual law said. I have found that when it comes to this issue, most of the general "non-gun owner" public have no idea what the laws actually say. Instead, they try to enforce their own personal "moral" law, to which they have no actual legal standing.

Recommend tactfully educating the fore mentioned staff member on what the law actually reads by providing the references. I stress using tact in this as people become defensive easily when it comes to this. This topic evokes a lot of emotion, similar to religion.

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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by TacAir » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:56 pm

Noven wrote:What did that guy do in Las Vegas?

He wound up on the parking lot

face down

with 7 bullet holes in his back - Thanks to the brave men of Metro (i.e. the cops)

Costco figures in this mess due to a call about a "man with a gun" that was embellished. Security tapes for that time are, oddly, 'bad'

see http://www.8newsnow.com/story/12796152/ ... ected=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://lasvegasbadger.blogspot.com/2010 ... tapes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


You can google more, quite the buzz - the guy being a vet and former West Point grad and all. I'm not taking sides. Just noting he was a licensed CCW and got dead - in a hurry due to a phone call and eager cops.


My point? This ***** could call the cops and set you up big time.

YMMV
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by epirider » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:21 pm

I am no lawyer, but just my .02

Most (and I do say MOST) officers follow the intent and faith of the law if they do not have the law book right in front of them . As a CCW carrier myself, I would give this advise:

I would go to the administrators and tell them what happened, dont give your political views or your slant on the law. Just the fact as unbias as possible. Empathize with her concern, then state your position - making sure that you emphasize that you carry not out of malice, but because this is something you "feel strongly about". Again dont go into you political point of view. THEN ask the administrator if, unless he feels very strongly about this, that you will make a "more consentrated effort" to make sure the gun is completely out of sight. If the administrator says that he will not allow the gun on the property or has a very dim view of the second amendment. Assure him you will no longer carry a weapon onto "this property". As it is private property - you DO have to respect the wishes of the property owner / manager.

I agree that you should be able to carry any where - especially at churchs, schools, courthouses etc... You know ... the places where because it is currently illegal to carry a weapon... Where the bad guys know people wont be shooting back at them when they decide to do bad things... but that is my point of view, so I digress...

Your son is going to be going to a school public or private in the next few years if not sooner. You will not be able to carry there, so starting a little early wont be a huge issue.
That is what I would do. YMMV
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Jeriah » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:05 pm

Find a different preschool.

Tell everyone involved, in very polite and formal writing, exactly why you are changing preschools.
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Noven » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:23 pm

epirider wrote: Your son is going to be going to a school public or private in the next few years if not sooner. You will not be able to carry there, so starting a little early wont be a huge issue.
That is what I would do. YMMV
Thanks for the info all. To the quoted part, since I am a CCW holder, I can bring my pistol on the school grounds of a K-12 school, but it needs to be unloaded and stay in the car.

As for the pre-school, the administrator lady does not own the place... the church does. I am not exactly 100% on the arrangement, but I do know the pre-school uses the church property, so I am assuming that I would need to have the church board tell me not to carry. As of now, I have carried there for years and not a single church member or board member has said anything about it. Hell, even at the church family camp they said nothing about it =).
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Electricity » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:51 pm

Personally.. in my OPINION, i think dude pushed the rules to far.. The law says K-12, so that means wearing at a pre k is ok? No.
And furthermore, stop posting on the net! This is an on going deal man.. don't internet it!
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Noven » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:19 am

Electricity wrote:Personally.. in my OPINION, i think dude pushed the rules to far.. The law says K-12, so that means wearing at a pre k is ok? No.
And furthermore, stop posting on the net! This is an on going deal man.. don't internet it!
How is it being pushed too far? The statute is very specific for a reason... so there is no shadow of a doubt what is legal.
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Gyrfalcon » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:38 am

Noven wrote:
Electricity wrote:Personally.. in my OPINION, i think dude pushed the rules to far.. The law says K-12, so that means wearing at a pre k is ok? No.
And furthermore, stop posting on the net! This is an on going deal man.. don't internet it!
How is it being pushed too far? The statute is very specific for a reason... so there is no shadow of a doubt what is legal.
The statute is a bunch of words on a piece of paper, and despite what they say, their meaning is distorted, I mean, "interpreted" by judges.

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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Shmerlin » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:52 am

School" means a public or nonpublic kindergarten program, common school or high school

Per this line, IMAO, preschools are also considered pre-kindergarten which constituets the "kindergarten program" part, and by being ran by a church would cover the "nonpublic" portion of the law.

If it were to go to court for what ever reason, I could very easily see a judge rulling against you.

(what everybody knows) "reasonable people" have the common knowlege that guns are not allowed on school campuses, anywhere at anytime.

I don't agree with the above statement, but its gonna take a Major change in the way people think to get "everyone else" (not people like here on ZS, but "normal people") to disagree with this.
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by raptor » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:17 am

I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment. However I am an equally strong strong supporter of private property rights. Your right to bring anything (including you and your child) onto a person's property ends at the property line. Full stop. Your rights under the 2nd amendment do not trump private property rights. In the US a person has the right to bar anyone or anything he/she chooses within that property line including firearms.

You should contact the head of the organization immediately and clarify the property owner's policy on the issue, preferably without admitting what you did since there is some question as to its legality. Yes I know you are sure it is legal, but since you are not a judge, your opinion is just that an opinion, not law and getting a judge's ruling will cost you some money.

Based upon what the property owner says you should make a decision about your continued use of the facility based upon that policy. If the owner say no firearms you are legally and morally bound to respect his rights.

If the owner says firearms are permitted ask him/her to speak to the employee about the matter.

Causing a scene over your right to carry a firearm in a pre-school sounds like a very quick trip to jail and a story to a judge that I would not like to hear.

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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by razi » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:04 pm

do not go by your assumptions here, get the property-owner's position on carrying, and then their permission to do so. do this today, because I can guarantee that that lady has already spoken to the owner and done so in a negative light.

print out a copy of the statute and take it with you.
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Istvan56 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:39 am

I've been through a similar experience at my church. Not with a pre-school but when one or more parents of children I was substitute teaching one Sunday complained after I took my coat off in a too hot classroom revealing my off duty weapon, spare magazine and handcuffs. It was my youngest step-daughter's class and she had told the kids I was a cop before I ever started class. So I passed around my badge case and credentials to the kids who thought it was cool.

Apparently later some kid told his/her parent who didn't think it was cool that even a police officer should bring a gun into church and I got pulled into the bishop's office the next Sunday. Church policy forbids any but active duty LEO's from carrying (not retired LEO's or CCW holders) and he verified that I was okay to carry but asked that I just keep my weapon concealed from now on so he doesn't get hassled by hoplophobes.

BTW, I agree with Raptor that private property owners can enforce gun bans on citizens. If you don't like it take your business elsewhere but tell them why you are doing so. I do believe in the "don't ask, don't tell" approach that if they don't have it posted that they don't want guns there then they don't have to know you are carrying. Either they allow concealed carry or they don't have an official policy on it. Which is why I'm not a fan of open carry while in town. Why force a business to come up with a policy or risk a confrontation? Fortunately most of these "gun free" businesses allow off duty cops to carry so I'm not too inconvienenced but there is one gun shop that has that rule so I avoid them. They got my business once and that's it. (They treat their customers badly anyway so piss on them.)

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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by dumos » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:45 pm

Shmerlin wrote:School" means a public or nonpublic kindergarten program, common school or high school

Per this line, IMAO, preschools are also considered pre-kindergarten which constituets the "kindergarten program" part, and by being ran by a church would cover the "nonpublic" portion of the law.

If it were to go to court for what ever reason, I could very easily see a judge rulling against you.

(what everybody knows) "reasonable people" have the common knowlege that guns are not allowed on school campuses, anywhere at anytime.

I don't agree with the above statement, but its gonna take a Major change in the way people think to get "everyone else" (not people like here on ZS, but "normal people") to disagree with this.
I believe he is correct. I called the sheriffs department where I live inquiring about that since we were considering send my son to a church pre-school/daycare. They said the pre-school/daycare was off limits.

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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by wyecoyte » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:00 am

Noven wrote:As for the pre-school, the administrator lady does not own the place... the church does. I am not exactly 100% on the arrangement, but I do know the pre-school uses the church property, so I am assuming that I would need to have the church board tell me not to carry.
That may be a problem right there. The pre-school may have under the law some tenant rights and as such may be able to within their rights keep you from carrying on grounds or certain locations on grounds during certain hours. Depending upon your state landlord/tenant legal rights. For instance if one of my tenants forbid the carrying of firearms on the property they may be able to enforce that expect in my case as being the owner of said property. It could get convululted in that regard. Not to mention as another poster pointed out that even though the statute states K-12 schools a lawyer may try to enforce it for a pre-school/pre-kindergarden and even if you assume your right it might cost you in legal bills to defend that right. Not to mention a LEO deciding to hassle you and attempt to arrest you and charge you for it.

All things considered it might be a time to spend a few dollars up front to talk with a lawyer who specializes in 2A rights just to confirm as well as check into the legal arrangment between the church and daycare facility and what are the landlord/tenant rights. That way you at least know or are more certain of knowing what your rights are in this matter.

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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by epirider » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:04 am

epirider wrote: I would go to the administrators and tell them what happened, dont give your political views or your slant on the law. Just the fact as unbias as possible. Empathize with her concern, then state your position - making sure that you emphasize that you carry not out of malice, but because this is something you "feel strongly about". Again dont go into you political point of view. THEN ask the administrator if, unless he feels very strongly about this, that you will make a "more consentrated effort" to make sure the gun is completely out of sight. If the administrator says that he will not allow the gun on the property or has a very dim view of the second amendment. Assure him you will no longer carry a weapon onto "this property". As it is private property - you DO have to respect the wishes of the property owner / manager.

I agree that you should be able to carry any where - especially at churchs, schools, courthouses etc... You know ... the places where because it is currently illegal to carry a weapon... Where the bad guys know people wont be shooting back at them when they decide to do bad things... but that is my point of view, so I digress...
:? What a fine idea guys... Getting property owner permission... huh... what will you guys come up with next? :lol:
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by 2005RedTJ » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:31 am

I pretty much ignore signs asking me not to carry in various places. The law here states that the extent of what can be done to you is being asked to leave by a uniformed police officer (who they have to call to the scene).

If you refuse to comply with the police officer's request, then you are trespassing and can be arrested as such. Note that this is NOT "Criminal Trespass", just trespassing. I would leave if asked by said police officer. I've never once been made for carrying so it's not a big concern for me.

The only places I refuse to carry are the places listed on the back of my CCW, "schools, federal, state, county, and city buildings and air terminals". .

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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by nasonguy » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:33 pm

I'm in AZ, and the law says you can carry on school property while dropping off or picking up kids.

It's in the ARS man, check it out.
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Gun_Nut_2k1 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:57 pm

Preschools are not schools. They do not fall under the School definition. Arizona has laws that state where and when you can carry. In fact my gun shop shared a wall with a preschool day/care facility. I was 800 feet away from a school. The school carry law is pretty clear. The crazy anti gun teacher does have the right to say you can't carry on the property. Any employee or representative of the property owner can do so. Of course the property owner can say it is ok. Posting this in a Non Arizona post is like asking an Arizonan what the Hunting regs in Maine are. Some of the info will cross over but most of the opinions are just not valid in AZ.
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Bearcat » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:16 pm

Noven wrote:Well, short story and I want the armchair commandos here to weigh in.
You can say that about a lot of forums, but I don't think ZS falls under that category
Noven wrote:"School" means a public or nonpublic kindergarten program, common school or high school.

Since the private property run pre-school does not fit into any of these areas, I figure that I am good.... like I thought I was.

What do you guys think?
Unless I misread the rest of you're post, that church kindergarten is a nonpublic kingdergarten program which would make it private, which does fall under the definition you supplied above. It doesn't sound like you're allowed to during the time the class is in session.
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Crazy Wolf » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:50 am

Bearcat wrote:...
Unless I misread the rest of you're post, that church kindergarten is a nonpublic kingdergarten program which would make it private, which does fall under the definition you supplied above. It doesn't sound like you're allowed to during the time the class is in session.
I think you misread. That church pre-school is a nonpublic pre-school, and is not mentioned in the law.
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Re: Firearms Issue

Post by Shmerlin » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:36 am

Crazy Wolf wrote:
Bearcat wrote:...
Unless I misread the rest of you're post, that church kindergarten is a nonpublic kingdergarten program which would make it private, which does fall under the definition you supplied above. It doesn't sound like you're allowed to during the time the class is in session.
I think you misread. That church pre-school is a nonpublic pre-school, and is not mentioned in the law.
I think that I wouldn't want to test that theory with out a very, very high priced lawyer.

Also I might add, and this is my opinion and as such should carry no legal weight, I don't agree with fact that "schools" are to be gunfree zones. If you're licensed you should be able to cary anywhere you want to, especially "federal and government" buildings. However if the stautue defines a school as "School" means a public or nonpublic kindergarten program, common school or high school" then a pre-school then might be considered as such under the law. I mean they had to provided the deffinition of school, probably cause someone went and tried the arguement of "I'm not selling drugs next to a school, this here is a Pre-Kindergarten, and that ain't no school by law".....
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