A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

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quazi
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A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by quazi » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:24 am

A dog killed a couple of my chickens today, and I failed in numerous ways trying to deal with it.

I had just sat down to watch a video on my phone, when I hear a chicken squawk. I look out the window and there's a yellow dog chasing it. I jump up and grab my trusty single-shot shotgun that's near the door. I eject the #2 shot that's in it and put in some rubber buckshot I had purchased specifically for running off dogs. That was my first screw-up. I got that rubber buckshot as part of a zero-tolerance policy on strange dogs after losing some chickens previously, but dogs that I knew to be chicken killers were supposed to get the real stuff.

I run out of the house and see it running off with my best hen. Maybe thirty yards away and starting to go into the high brush. I shoot at it with the rubber buckshot and it doesn't seem to phase it. I probably missed, but I'm usually pretty accurate with that single-shot.

I run back into the house to grab some more shotgun shells (I don't own a butt-cuff, which is another failure on my part). By the time I get back outside it's gone. I hear my neighbor yelling. I walk over there and retrieve my dead chicken (too mangled to be worth butchering). It wasn't the neighbor's dog. He said it had been terrorizing my other neighbor's dog. I get home fuming. I jump in my car with my chicken. I think I know where the dog has been coming from, and if I saw it in somebody's yard I intended to go up to their door with the chicken they had just bought.

I didn't see the dog. On my way back I see it running down the road. I try to get it to follow me in my car to a place where I can shoot in a safe direction (cold hearted of me, but I'm pretty sure this is the same dog that killed some of my chickens last fall). If follows me a ways, then turns around and goes back the other way in the ditch. I jump out and start following it, trying to call it back to me. After following it for a little ways it starts heading towards the neighbors. I reach for my phone to call home and warn them, only to discover that it wasn't there (another big failure). I had dropped it on the floor when I first saw the dog. I start walking faster. I see a bit of yellow flashing through the high brush as the dogs runs from the neighbor's back to my Grandma's house.

I take off running as fast as I can, dodging around fences and wood piles and parked cars. I traced it out on Google Earth and I ran just short of two hundred yards. I get into the back yard and the dog is chasing another chicken out by the old meat shed (a safe direction to shoot in) and so I draw my snub nosed .38 (another failure) and fire three rounds at it. All three misses. The dog doesn't seem to pay any attention, it's running around in circles trying to catch the chicken. I take a little more careful aim, incredulously thinking "there's no way I can miss a fourth time." I miss a fourth time. The dog catches the chicken. I cock the hammer back on my revolver, knowing this is my last shot and I need to take careful aim. My mother has unexpectedly come up behind me and yells "get the hell out of here you son of a bitch!" at the dog. Startled, I yell "shut the fuck up!" The dog was way more frightened by the yelling than the shooting, it drops the bird and runs. I hurriedly take my last shot as it disappears into the bushes, and miss yet again. (Another failure, being out of practice and missing all my shots at what I paced off to be 20-25 yards.)

I run back into the house. My mom's boyfriend is grabbing my single-shot. (He was slowed down by it being loaded with rubber buckshot instead of #2. So that was yet another failure. I should have re-loaded it with the good stuff.) I run to where I keep my semi-auto shotgun, which is loaded with slugs for bears. I wear transition lenses. I can't see my gun. I grab another long gun by feel, it's my .30-06 which I know is sighted in. I start running back out of the house. I see that I actually have my bolt-action .223, which is not loaded and has a fixed 8x scope. I run back and by this time I can see enough to grab my shotgun. I run back out, hearing a bang as my mom's boyfriend shoots at the dog. By the time I get out there the dog is long gone. He says he saw it stumble a bit, but it was pretty far away for birdshot and it didn't seem to slow down. Hopefully it was enough to convince it not to come back.

So, I think my big list of failures are:
1. Not having the right gun/right ammo to start with.
2. Leaving my cell phone behind.
3. Not having an adequate firearm with me later.
4. Being out of practice.
5. Not thinking about transition lenses and properly planning around them.

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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by quazi » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:44 am

The practice thing I definitely need to address. I moved to a place where I could easily shoot every day in the summer, and every weekend in the winter. I just got busy with other parts of my life, and I actually practice far less often than when it was a big PITA to do so.

I don't normally carry (other than pepper spray) any more, partly because of work and partly because I'm so out of practice. I do shoot my .38 every so often, and I don't normally have trouble keeping all my shots on an 8x11 piece of paper at fifteen yards. Of course, static target shooting is way easier than trying to shoot a moving target after running my ass off for nearly two hundred yards.

I need to set a weekly date to do some target shooting. I also need to start some weekly dry-fire practice. I had already contacted the local range owner about taking a handgun class (it's probably been six years since my last handgun class).

When I do get back into practice I need to find a decent way to carry a better handgun than a snub-nosed .38. I originally got it as a "sweatpants" gun meaning a gun that I could put in my sweatpants in a pocket holster that was light enough to keep them from falling down around my ankles. It wasn't supposed to be my go-to, it was supposed to be for when nothing else was feasible (also for fun, which is its primary purpose). Carrying is complicated by work, which doesn't allow firearms and since the troopers are frequently in the building (Alaska has a requirement to inform police when you are carrying a concealed weapon) I decided not to carry at work. So I would have to have an option that was easy to take off and put on. I also love wearing bib overalls, which don't work with most holsters.

I need to keep a long gun in my car. I think part of my problem with growing complacent is that I had been pretty handily nailing the predators I had shot as previously, but that was with rifles and shotguns which are a hell of a lot easier to use. This is the third time in as many years that I've wished I had a rifle in my car. I don't have any out-of-sight place to put it, so I'll have to figure out something to put it in.

I need to do what I've been talking about for years and put some hooks above the door for my semi-auto shotgun, that way it will be both out of the way (so nobody moves it) and really easy to grab even when I can't see it. I actually need to figure out what to do about my long-gun situation in general. I feel like I shouldn't be spending money on any more guns, but I also think I might need to get something different for my grandmother's house in particular.

I need to remember my phone. That's the biggest one, but I'm not sure what to do other than tell myself "remember your phone!" a bunch of times.

I need better fencing, but that's actually one of the more difficult things in this particular situation.

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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by Stercutus » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:32 am

You left out the failure of discipline in cursing at your mama. The rest is fine but don't go there.

I have found buckshot to be unreliable on dogs. Hitting them is easy enough but dogs are actually pretty tough creatures. I'd recommend .223 in a 62gr loading. You can get a rifle with a scope with an adjustable eye piece and you won't have to worry about glasses as much. If the creature is rabid you don't want it running around wounded and 5.56 is fairly reliable with a well placed hit. Check the laws of your state. Most states allow you to shoot dogs if they are attacking livestock. Sometimes fowl are not considered livestock. Ah, wait here we are:
Sec. 03.55.030 Dogs that annoy or bite animals or birds.

Whenever any dog habitually annoys any wild deer, reindeer, sheep, cattle, horse, or other animal or bird either domestic or wild, or evinces a disposition which makes it likely that it will without provocation bite an animal or fowl, any person may lawfully kill the dog, when at large. The owner or keeper of the dog, if known or reasonably identifiable, shall be notified and given reasonable opportunity to restrain the dog before it is lawful to kill it. Persons authorized to enforce AS 16.05 (Alaska Fish and Game Code) and peace officers may enforce this section.
You may want to dig in to that a little just to be sure. Just in case the owner (if there is one) tries to make trouble for you.
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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by flybynight » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:14 am

Yea I was wondering about the rubber buckshot. Were you expecting a riot of dogs? :mrgreen: Iwould go with something a bit more lethal. Oh and keep a shovel handy. So if someone comes looking for bowser you can honestly say. Nope haven't seen him in awhile.

P.S. My mom would have been saying, hadn't seen me in days while leaning on the shovel if I told her STFU :awesome:
As of now I bet you got me wrong

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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by 00dlez » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:57 am

I don't know that you failed with having the right ammo/gun to start with. Sure, additional shells on board would make things a lot easier, but if you need lethal buck loaded, then you need it then, not after unloading rubber shot and re-loading the real stuff.
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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by quazi » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:15 pm

Stercutus wrote:You left out the failure of discipline in cursing at your mama. The rest is fine but don't go there.
You mean you don't communicate with your mother predominantly through four letter words and flipping the bird? :lol:

Around here cursing is for friends and family, and polite language is reserved for strangers and when you really want to insult someone.

I do need to get my AR put back together. I sold a part off of it, and then by the time I ordered a replacement it was scattered all over what with me moving around a few times a year.

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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by quazi » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:31 pm

flybynight wrote:Yea I was wondering about the rubber buckshot. Were you expecting a riot of dogs? :mrgreen: Iwould go with something a bit more lethal. Oh and keep a shovel handy. So if someone comes looking for bowser you can honestly say. Nope haven't seen him in awhile.
00dlez wrote:I don't know that you failed with having the right ammo/gun to start with. Sure, additional shells on board would make things a lot easier, but if you need lethal buck loaded, then you need it then, not after unloading rubber shot and re-loading the real stuff.
To be clear, I had a semi-auto shotgun loaded for bear around the corner. I had a brain fart and grabbed my single shot because it was very close to the door.

The single shot was actually loaded with #2 birdshot (I had it ready for birds). I had another brain fart and unloaded that and put the rubber buckshot in.

The reasoning behind the rubber buckshot is that we very frequently have strange dogs run on to our property. These dogs don't normally kill any chickens, and run away when yelled at. After losing some chickens to a dog last fall I decided to send any dog I saw packing with something a little stronger than harsh language, but I don't want to kill someone's dog for simply stepping foot on our property once without actually doing anything.

Maybe I can't trust myself with rubber buckshot though, as I obviously make poor decisions in the heat of the moment (grabbing a single shot, unloading the birdshot and loading rubber buck when there was a shotgun with slugs in the next room).

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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by woodsghost » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:19 pm

A sleeve of ammo with 1 round of rubber buck would solve your problem. That way, if it is a non-bird killing dog you can unload the lethal ammo and load the rubber buck. Otherwise you have leathal ammo always ready. Several rounds, even!

You need to do shooting under stress. I think the stress is what caused a lot of errors. A range, or a Google search can tell you how to up your stress and practice shooting.

A .38 is good for plenty of critters. My go-to was a .38 snub for 3-4 years. A good grip would probably have helped. Lots of practice would also have helped. Especially practice under stress.

Lots of 20/20 hindsight here. That happens, and you did ok. If you learned your lessons then it worked out. If you didn't learn, well....

What about a Maverick pump or another single shot stashed in the car? One with a sleeve of ammo? Either way, a sleeve would be good. Can you put a long gun in the trunk?

Also, did you ever see your sights? Probably not. Learning some point shooting could help. But my experience is hunting and stress based gun courses did a lot for me. I need to keep it up. Competition can help too. Even just with friends. And I still good up often enough.
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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by MPMalloy » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:01 pm

woodsghost wrote:A sleeve of ammo with 1 round of rubber buck would solve your problem. That way, if it is a non-bird killing dog you can unload the lethal ammo and load the rubber buck. Otherwise you have leathal ammo always ready. Several rounds, even!

You need to do shooting under stress. I think the stress is what caused a lot of errors. A range, or a Google search can tell you how to up your stress and practice shooting.
As I see things, this is it. Missing is a matter of marksmanship. Running dry, more ammo.

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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by Laager » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:45 pm

I usually head up to Missouri once a year to hang out with some friends (supposed to be hunting, but I do not really hunt anymore), and Gary has a boatload of single shot shotguns, the darn things are everywhere (guess I shouldn't complain since he gave me a lower receiver for a H&R .30-30 barrel I found in one of my gun vaults).

Actually I love those things......usually a person can find a decent single shot for under 200.00 and they work.

Adrenaline is a real pain in the rear end. Recently a clerk at the gun store in the next town had to shot at a dog that was attacking his dog/him.

He drew and fired his Glock 43 single stack 9mm....at under five feet and missed. We have been giving him heck, well he did shot the dog on Uranus (Place) so that was a good source of fun.....

But the thing is, this guy hits the range at least once a week, is very familiar with firearms, has a concealed carry permit and he still managed to miss a dog at less than five feet. Of course there were two dogs, but they ran off (went back home, and the owners let them inside, of course the dogs disappeared for a month or so but are now back.)

According to him it was a smooth draw, a perfect site picture, but the round impacted the ground (it was the far side of a public road through the neighborhood, the road is typical asphalt paving) and was recovered by the local PD.

I'm not real sure what went wrong, other than a possible adrenaline rush and neither does he. I have poked him a few times on his firearm of choice (not that there is anything wrong with a Glock 43, but he did not have any extra magazines and had two medium sized dogs to deal with and had already fired one round leaving him with only five more rounds.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and I believe it is a good thing to look at what happened and make what you believe to be positive changes to your plan, ammo, firearms choice/selection and where they are kept as well as how they are kept.

As far as cussing your mother, well I'd love to tell my father and mother a few things, but then I would have to deal with the wrath of Lil and trust me you never want to make Lil angry. I did get a good chuckle from you being able to do it.

Someone mentioned a shovel....absolutely have a good shovel standing by and adhere to the Shoot, shovel and shut-up rule. Many years ago I had a good friend by the name of Donny (he killed himself many years back) that raised rabbits in his backyard. They were his meat source as was his chickens but a few of the neighbors had a lot of cats, mostly feral ones but some I guess were supposed to be pets.

Lets just say that a group of us used to have frequent cat hunts and things were pretty good. Right up till a few of them started making it home. Well we evidently shot one that imho was a lucky darn cat and used up 8 lives getting out of Donny's fenced backyard that night.

The cat made it home, to collapse on the front porch where the owner then rushed him in for some kind of heroic cat life saving surgery that totaled out at (rumor and neighborhood gossip) at around to under 500usd.

That neighbor kept sitting on his porch at night watching for whomever was shooting cats. We could tell, because he would sit out on his front porch and smoke so we saw the glow.

Anyway, it seems the authorities frowned on whomever it was that was shooting felines...so the feline hunts were called off.

Rework you plan, practice more and like the man said get a shovel and imho stick to the three S's. Because imho my chickens are work more to me than your dog or cat. Especially if it is in my yard killing my stuff.
“Complacency kills. Paranoia is the reason I’m still alive.” If we do happen to make contact, I expect nothing less than gratuitous violence from the lot of ya.

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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by woodsghost » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:42 am

Reading quanzi's story and reading about the guy with the G43 reminds me of many of my early hunting experiences. One gun fighter I read (Jim Cirillo, I believe?) wrote some of the people he found to be good gun fighters were handgun hunters. I think hunting with the guns you expect to fight with is a wise idea. I get that not everyone is interested. I just think it is wise advice I got for free from another.
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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by JohnE » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:08 am

quazi wrote:A dog killed a couple of my chickens today, and I failed in numerous ways trying to deal with it.

I had just sat down to watch a video on my phone, when I hear a chicken squawk. I look out the window and there's a yellow dog chasing it. I jump up and grab my trusty single-shot shotgun that's near the door. I eject the #2 shot that's in it and put in some rubber buckshot I had purchased specifically for running off dogs. That was my first screw-up. I got that rubber buckshot as part of a zero-tolerance policy on strange dogs after losing some chickens previously, but dogs that I knew to be chicken killers were supposed to get the real stuff.

I run out of the house and see it running off with my best hen. Maybe thirty yards away and starting to go into the high brush. I shoot at it with the rubber buckshot and it doesn't seem to phase it. I probably missed, but I'm usually pretty accurate with that single-shot.

I run back into the house to grab some more shotgun shells (I don't own a butt-cuff, which is another failure on my part). By the time I get back outside it's gone. I hear my neighbor yelling. I walk over there and retrieve my dead chicken (too mangled to be worth butchering). It wasn't the neighbor's dog. He said it had been terrorizing my other neighbor's dog. I get home fuming. I jump in my car with my chicken. I think I know where the dog has been coming from, and if I saw it in somebody's yard I intended to go up to their door with the chicken they had just bought.

I didn't see the dog. On my way back I see it running down the road. I try to get it to follow me in my car to a place where I can shoot in a safe direction (cold hearted of me, but I'm pretty sure this is the same dog that killed some of my chickens last fall). If follows me a ways, then turns around and goes back the other way in the ditch. I jump out and start following it, trying to call it back to me. After following it for a little ways it starts heading towards the neighbors. I reach for my phone to call home and warn them, only to discover that it wasn't there (another big failure). I had dropped it on the floor when I first saw the dog. I start walking faster. I see a bit of yellow flashing through the high brush as the dogs runs from the neighbor's back to my Grandma's house.

I take off running as fast as I can, dodging around fences and wood piles and parked cars. I traced it out on Google Earth and I ran just short of two hundred yards. I get into the back yard and the dog is chasing another chicken out by the old meat shed (a safe direction to shoot in) and so I draw my snub nosed .38 (another failure) and fire three rounds at it. All three misses. The dog doesn't seem to pay any attention, it's running around in circles trying to catch the chicken. I take a little more careful aim, incredulously thinking "there's no way I can miss a fourth time." I miss a fourth time. The dog catches the chicken. I cock the hammer back on my revolver, knowing this is my last shot and I need to take careful aim. My mother has unexpectedly come up behind me and yells "get the hell out of here you son of a bitch!" at the dog. Startled, I yell "shut the fuck up!" The dog was way more frightened by the yelling than the shooting, it drops the bird and runs. I hurriedly take my last shot as it disappears into the bushes, and miss yet again. (Another failure, being out of practice and missing all my shots at what I paced off to be 20-25 yards.)

I run back into the house. My mom's boyfriend is grabbing my single-shot. (He was slowed down by it being loaded with rubber buckshot instead of #2. So that was yet another failure. I should have re-loaded it with the good stuff.) I run to where I keep my semi-auto shotgun, which is loaded with slugs for bears. I wear transition lenses. I can't see my gun. I grab another long gun by feel, it's my .30-06 which I know is sighted in. I start running back out of the house. I see that I actually have my bolt-action .223, which is not loaded and has a fixed 8x scope. I run back and by this time I can see enough to grab my shotgun. I run back out, hearing a bang as my mom's boyfriend shoots at the dog. By the time I get out there the dog is long gone. He says he saw it stumble a bit, but it was pretty far away for birdshot and it didn't seem to slow down. Hopefully it was enough to convince it not to come back.

So, I think my big list of failures are:
1. Not having the right gun/right ammo to start with.
2. Leaving my cell phone behind.
3. Not having an adequate firearm with me later.
4. Being out of practice.
5. Not thinking about transition lenses and properly planning around them.
All that nonsense over 2 chickens?
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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by Laager » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:56 am

JohnE wrote:
All that nonsense over 2 chickens?[/quote]


Even two chickens represents a substantial time/money investment. Besides it is two today then more tomorrow, and so on if you do not stop them they keep coming back and tearing up stuff that you have to repair and deal with.

Well any of my time is worth more than a egg sucking/chicken killing dog. I do like dogs better than chickens, but my time and effort is worth more to me than someone else's worthless dog.

Then again I could be wrong.
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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by JohnE » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:12 pm

Laager wrote:
JohnE wrote:
All that nonsense over 2 chickens?

Even two chickens represents a substantial time/money investment. Besides it is two today then more tomorrow, and so on if you do not stop them they keep coming back and tearing up stuff that you have to repair and deal with.

Well any of my time is worth more than a egg sucking/chicken killing dog. I do like dogs better than chickens, but my time and effort is worth more to me than someone else's worthless dog.

Then again I could be wrong.[/quote]

I wasn't referring to the time wasted. I was referring to the circus which seemed to take place. Lots of running, shouting, incredibly bad tactical decisions etc.
John E
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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by woodsghost » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:50 am

JohnE wrote:
Laager wrote:
JohnE wrote:
All that nonsense over 2 chickens?

Even two chickens represents a substantial time/money investment. Besides it is two today then more tomorrow, and so on if you do not stop them they keep coming back and tearing up stuff that you have to repair and deal with.

Well any of my time is worth more than a egg sucking/chicken killing dog. I do like dogs better than chickens, but my time and effort is worth more to me than someone else's worthless dog.

Then again I could be wrong.
I wasn't referring to the time wasted. I was referring to the circus which seemed to take place. Lots of running, shouting, incredibly bad tactical decisions etc.[/quote]

Well the OP posted it up as an example of mistakes. Not as an example to be emulated. And my own emergencies have looked similar, which is why I sought stress based training, and that has helped.
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Re: A story a failure regarding a chicken-killing dog

Post by JeeperCreeper » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm

Quazi, I was at a similar position as you before. You have a couple decent options for defensive scenarios and the choice and options make decisions on the fly more complicated.

I would try to limit the amount of options, i.e. guns, that you would rely on. For example, I had a bunch of various platforms for when I was at my GF's family's farm. I lost a groundhog trying to decide what rifle to use. From then on, I decided on my ole .30-30 for everything from groundhogs to black bear. Luckily only used it on rodents, but it handled them nicely (exploded them).

So I would try and condense... that way you're not all mixed up with a .410, 12 gauge, .223, .30-06, etc. Pick one gun for your needs and keep it ready. That way you don't have a wild goose chase... or wild dog chase... that is attempted to be solved with a .38 snubby under pressure.

And commenting on shooting under pressure, it goes without saying that one of the biggest things to throw a shot on a handgun is slapping the trigger. One of the first things to do under pressure is slapping the trigger. A long gun can mitigate that under pressure, obviously. So focus on the long gun issue before it goes to a handgun issue.

At least that's what I'd do. Good story though, your breakdown of the events were very helpful to me and very honest and introspective/self-aware.
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