First Confrontation While Open Carrying

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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by desert fox » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:03 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Blame TV.

There is plenty of real evidence out there
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Whackpack7 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:12 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Rev wrote:
Browning 35 wrote: It's not like you're being told this by a bunch of rabid cop-haters either. Most of the general population is somewhat leery of police officers whether they're a law abiding individual or not. That's just a fact.
Unscientific poll. Asked the two people to the right of me what they'd think would happen if they walked away from a police officers "encounter". Yeah, perhaps the departments of America need to work on their image.

These aren't career criminals. A girl working on her bachelors degree and a "golly gee willickers" Mormon.
Blame TV.
Whackpack7 wrote: To the point though, I did feel as though it was a 'stop' or temporary detainment because I felt as though I didn't have the freedom to leave any longer. I felt that after we made contact I needed to stay with him and his partner until he gave me the okay to go. He didn't stop to talk or chat no sir. He was straight to the point of me and if I was legal in my actions of which he wasn't even sure. If you as an officer stopped me for OC (most likely interpreted very differently in Pitt), and I tried to say no I don't wish to talk and walked off, what would you legitimately do given the circumstances?
So you didn't ask to leave, attempt to leave, but you "felt" like you were being detained. By your own admission, the only thing keeping you there...was you. How is that the officer's fault?
With all due respect, I wouldn't ask to leave if I had been pulled over either and I am pretty certain the answers would have been the same for both.

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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:25 pm

Whackpack7 wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Rev wrote:
Browning 35 wrote: It's not like you're being told this by a bunch of rabid cop-haters either. Most of the general population is somewhat leery of police officers whether they're a law abiding individual or not. That's just a fact.
Unscientific poll. Asked the two people to the right of me what they'd think would happen if they walked away from a police officers "encounter". Yeah, perhaps the departments of America need to work on their image.

These aren't career criminals. A girl working on her bachelors degree and a "golly gee willickers" Mormon.
Blame TV.
Whackpack7 wrote: To the point though, I did feel as though it was a 'stop' or temporary detainment because I felt as though I didn't have the freedom to leave any longer. I felt that after we made contact I needed to stay with him and his partner until he gave me the okay to go. He didn't stop to talk or chat no sir. He was straight to the point of me and if I was legal in my actions of which he wasn't even sure. If you as an officer stopped me for OC (most likely interpreted very differently in Pitt), and I tried to say no I don't wish to talk and walked off, what would you legitimately do given the circumstances?
So you didn't ask to leave, attempt to leave, but you "felt" like you were being detained. By your own admission, the only thing keeping you there...was you. How is that the officer's fault?
With all due respect, I wouldn't ask to leave if I had been pulled over either and I am pretty certain the answers would have been the same for both.
And now we're back to explaining the difference between being pulled over while driving and having an officer approach you and talk to you. Again, the only thing holding you there was you. That is not the case when a police officer pulls you over.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Spd164 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:29 pm

Browning 35 wrote:
Spd164 wrote:Oddly enough, the only place I regularly hear this rhetoric is on the Internet.
That doesn't surprise me any.

Most cops hang out with other cops or people in similar jobs.

When would someone tell you about this except on the net? During a vehicle stop? Some guy is going to tell you how he breathed a mental sigh of relief when you were courteous for the stop (or 'encounter' if you prefer) instead of being a gigantic raving dick like the last cop that stopped him 6 years ago? That's not going to happen.

It's not like you're being told this by a bunch of rabid cop-haters either. Most of the general population is somewhat leery of police officers whether they're a law abiding individual or not. That's just a fact. That's because it's one of those jobs where you have a great deal of power. You can either help them out or try to fuck them over if you so choose.

Yeah, to a certain extent you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Like it or not it's one of those jobs. Everyone wants you around when they need help real bad and the rest of the time they want you to leave them alone. That's just the way it is. Not much you can do about it except to be professional.
And I do understand what you are saying IRT the attitude making the difference. Only thing I can say is not everyone on the job is as naturally fucking awesome at it as I am.
Probably not. [I'm actually being serious]

A good general attitude and being polite go a long way.

You still have a job to do, so it's not always going to be possible, but it will probably make things go a whole lot better for you in the long run than a dick who thinks every shift is a battle and goes out of his or her way to be consistently rude. I'm sure you know a few guys like that as well.
Please don't make assumptions about my personal life. I in fact avoid most cops when off duty, because I've been working undercover for the past two years and have next to nothing in common with most of them. I do have cop friends, but I also have a ton of metalhead/punk rock friends, some friends that I deployed with twice, and plenty of "joe normal" friends as well. I will leave further discussion of the particulars of my personal life for PM, if you so choose. And just so I'm clear, no butthurt on my end toward you for making that assumption, I know what you meant and I didn't take it the wrong way.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Spd164 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:32 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Whackpack7 wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Rev wrote: Unscientific poll. Asked the two people to the right of me what they'd think would happen if they walked away from a police officers "encounter". Yeah, perhaps the departments of America need to work on their image.

These aren't career criminals. A girl working on her bachelors degree and a "golly gee willickers" Mormon.
Blame TV.
Whackpack7 wrote: To the point though, I did feel as though it was a 'stop' or temporary detainment because I felt as though I didn't have the freedom to leave any longer. I felt that after we made contact I needed to stay with him and his partner until he gave me the okay to go. He didn't stop to talk or chat no sir. He was straight to the point of me and if I was legal in my actions of which he wasn't even sure. If you as an officer stopped me for OC (most likely interpreted very differently in Pitt), and I tried to say no I don't wish to talk and walked off, what would you legitimately do given the circumstances?
So you didn't ask to leave, attempt to leave, but you "felt" like you were being detained. By your own admission, the only thing keeping you there...was you. How is that the officer's fault?
With all due respect, I wouldn't ask to leave if I had been pulled over either and I am pretty certain the answers would have been the same for both.
And now we're back to explaining the difference between being pulled over while driving and having an officer approach you and talk to you. Again, the only thing holding you there was you. That is not the case when a police officer pulls you over.
This. Your feelings have nothing to do with the law. Traffic stop =/= what you experienced. I'm seriously done trying to explain the difference.

Fwiw I think you handled the situation the right way. Again, sorry you got your feelings hurt. I'm sure there's a copy of a hurt feelings report floating around here somewhere.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Browning 35 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:32 pm

Spd164 wrote:Please don't make assumptions about my personal life. I in fact avoid most cops when off duty, because I've been working undercover for the past two years and have next to nothing in common with most of them. I do have cop friends, but I also have a ton of metalhead/punk rock friends, some friends that I deployed with twice, and plenty of "joe normal" friends as well. I will leave further discussion of the particulars of my personal life for PM, if you so choose. And just so I'm clear, no butthurt on my end toward you for making that assumption, I know what you meant and I didn't take it the wrong way.
Okay, cool. Fair enough.

Not everyone fits within a general mold.
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Rev » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:40 pm

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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Spd164 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:12 pm

Mall Ninja wrote:It works both ways though, doesn't it? Spd, how would you feel if you were in uniform and a citizen came came up to you and started asking questions about your carry piece? The time I did that, the officer looked very uncomfortable.
Sorry, missed this. Me personally, as well as most guys I work with, would discuss guns with just about anyone who asked. Providing that there isn't anything else going on, and the person asking doesn't come across as a whacker or a wannabe, I will talk guns as long as I can with someone. But I'm a "gun guy". Lots of cops only own one gun, and don't have the fascination with them that I do. Those guys would probably give a "meh" sort of response to trying to start a gun related conversation. Just different strokes.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:22 pm

Spd164 wrote:
Mall Ninja wrote:It works both ways though, doesn't it? Spd, how would you feel if you were in uniform and a citizen came came up to you and started asking questions about your carry piece? The time I did that, the officer looked very uncomfortable.
Sorry, missed this. Me personally, as well as most guys I work with, would discuss guns with just about anyone who asked. Providing that there isn't anything else going on, and the person asking doesn't come across as a whacker or a wannabe, I will talk guns as long as I can with someone. But I'm a "gun guy". Lots of cops only own one gun, and don't have the fascination with them that I do. Those guys would probably give a "meh" sort of response to trying to start a gun related conversation. Just different strokes.
I've seen several responses. I asked a few officers about the change to .45 GAP. Some looke donfused, some discussed the pros and cons, and one of them looked like he was trying to figure out when the gun grab was gonna happen.

Let me field this one for the "cops should leave me alone" crowd. How would you react to a plain Joe Sixpack coming up and talking to you. Open carry or not, answer as best applies. For the sake of argument, you're in your neighborhood/apartment complex/whatever but not on your own property, and someone else comes up and greets you politely and starts asking you a fee questions. "Hi, how are you. Are you from around here? Where are you headed today?" Etc. Do you react differently? What if they're wearing a neighborhood watch badge or hat or jacket or whatever those crazy kids are doing these days?
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Mall Ninja » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:40 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Spd164 wrote:
Mall Ninja wrote:It works both ways though, doesn't it? Spd, how would you feel if you were in uniform and a citizen came came up to you and started asking questions about your carry piece? The time I did that, the officer looked very uncomfortable.
Sorry, missed this. Me personally, as well as most guys I work with, would discuss guns with just about anyone who asked. Providing that there isn't anything else going on, and the person asking doesn't come across as a whacker or a wannabe, I will talk guns as long as I can with someone. But I'm a "gun guy". Lots of cops only own one gun, and don't have the fascination with them that I do. Those guys would probably give a "meh" sort of response to trying to start a gun related conversation. Just different strokes.
I've seen several responses. I asked a few officers about the change to .45 GAP. Some looke donfused, some discussed the pros and cons, and one of them looked like he was trying to figure out when the gun grab was gonna happen.
I kinda got the impression he thought I was a whacko (he probably wasn't the first, nor the last to think that), and he was young - younger than me, at least, so maybe he just wasn't used to talking to people outside of responding to a complaint context.
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Let me field this one for the "cops should leave me alone" crowd. How would you react to a plain Joe Sixpack coming up and talking to you. Open carry or not, answer as best applies. For the sake of argument, you're in your neighborhood/apartment complex/whatever but not on your own property, and someone else comes up and greets you politely and starts asking you a fee questions. "Hi, how are you. Are you from around here? Where are you headed today?" Etc. Do you react differently? What if they're wearing a neighborhood watch badge or hat or jacket or whatever those crazy kids are doing these days?
I live in the city, where most people seem to act like its rude to talk to anyone you don't already know. I generally try to be friendly with people, but honestly, most of the people who've tried to strike up a conversation with me have been either panhandlers or grifters or even worse, missionaries. And if anyone I dont know starts asking me personal questions, it doesnt matter how they are dressed (or even what gender they are), that immediately puts me on alert.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by maldon007 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:11 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: And now we're back to explaining the difference between being pulled over while driving and having an officer approach you and talk to you. Again, the only thing holding you there was you. That is not the case when a police officer pulls you over.

Sometimes there is no difference, legally. The standard is usually something like- "A person is “stopped,” or “detained,” when an officer uses enough force, or a show of authority, to make a reasonable person feel he or she is not free to leave."

So whether or not you are detained can be a very grey area, especially given the vagary of a "reasonable" person's understanding. All it might take is an officer moving into your path, in uniform and asking you a question, while blocking your way. Or just saying "hold on a minute" or something to that effect. Not to mention, most people who may understand their rights better than most, probably also understand that if they refuse to "hang out and chat" an officer may find a number of reasons to be suspicious and take it to the next level.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by desert fox » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:35 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Let me field this one for the "cops should leave me alone" crowd. How would you react to a plain Joe Sixpack coming up and talking to you. Open carry or not, answer as best applies. For the sake of argument, you're in your neighborhood/apartment complex/whatever but not on your own property, and someone else comes up and greets you politely and starts asking you a fee questions. "Hi, how are you. Are you from around here? Where are you headed today?" Etc. Do you react differently? What if they're wearing a neighborhood watch badge or hat or jacket or whatever those crazy kids are doing these days?


Your point is invalid. If joe schmoe walks up and says "Hi, how are you. Are you from around here? Where are you headed today?" Im going to assume he just wants to get to know me. If he asks why im carrying, in a positive tone, I will tell him. If he asks in a negative tone, I will walk away, KNOWING that nothing can come of it.

Sigh. Again, if a cop does that, we are upset BECAUSE HE IS AN AUTHORITY FIGURE, A POLICE OFFICER. Most cops do not just chit chat or BS about guns, they enforce the law, 95% of the time an encounter with a cop happens because a law was broken. So him coming up and asking about carrying, while doing nothing wrong, IMPLIES that you are doing something wrong. And we already said it depends on his tone "why are you carrying" vs "hey man what are you carrying"

This really is not that difficult to understand, and its almost comical. You big posters are always telling us newbs to live in the real world, but yet very often you are the one living in a perfect fantasy world. Next time you get "approached" about carrying, say to the officer "have a nice day" and walk away. I dare you. I guarantee it will not be a happy ending like you all propose it would be.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:24 pm

Spd164 wrote:And I do understand what you are saying IRT the attitude making the difference. Only thing I can say is not everyone on the job is as naturally fucking awesome at it as I am.
:mrgreen:

Honestly, I'd say that a vast majority of cops are good guys. You choose to do a tough job for crap pay, and you keep doing it. That deserves some respect, so seriously, thank you.

That said, you guys are human like the rest of us. One bad encounter with one cop that isn't as awesome as most is all it takes to make a lot of people reasonably concerned about interacting with police officers. (I suppose just how reasonable is a matter of debate, but I think reasonable people can have reasonable differences of opinion on that.)

Anyway, going back to the OP, I re-read this:
As I drove in I did a quick scan for and LEO vehicles so I could avoid a confrontation while carrying. Since I was already wearing the holster (a SERPA) on my belt, rather than take it off I placed my regular carry gun (a Glock 30) in it. As I was walking into the store, out of the corner of my eye I saw two sheriffs cruisers pulling in beside me. I let out a "damn" under my breath because I knew they would say something.
Before I say ANYTHING else, I want to be clear that I am not, not, NOT accusing the OP of doing anything wrong. In fact, I'm not even saying the officers in question were doing anything wrong. Not in the least.

I know a lot of us have felt, and I'm sure most of us have at least read others talking about, feeling nervous when CCing if we're not used to doing it, worried that the gun is 'printing,' and all that. It's natural that if someone is used to CCing and not OCing, they're going to feel nervous about it; it sounds like the OP was.

I wonder if that nervousness didn't cue a "let's go talk to that guy" reaction from the officers that might not have happened otherwise? As an officer, is that something you could comment on?


At the same time, unfortunately, it's not hard to understand why the OP might have been nervous. Regardless, I'm glad the interaction went as well as it did.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Spd164 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:28 pm

desert fox wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Let me field this one for the "cops should leave me alone" crowd. How would you react to a plain Joe Sixpack coming up and talking to you. Open carry or not, answer as best applies. For the sake of argument, you're in your neighborhood/apartment complex/whatever but not on your own property, and someone else comes up and greets you politely and starts asking you a fee questions. "Hi, how are you. Are you from around here? Where are you headed today?" Etc. Do you react differently? What if they're wearing a neighborhood watch badge or hat or jacket or whatever those crazy kids are doing these days?


Your point is invalid. If joe schmoe walks up and says "Hi, how are you. Are you from around here? Where are you headed today?" Im going to assume he just wants to get to know me. If he asks why im carrying, in a positive tone, I will tell him. If he asks in a negative tone, I will walk away, KNOWING that nothing can come of it.

Sigh. Again, if a cop does that, we are upset BECAUSE HE IS AN AUTHORITY FIGURE, A POLICE OFFICER. Most cops do not just chit chat or BS about guns, they enforce the law, 95% of the time an encounter with a cop happens because a law was broken. So him coming up and asking about carrying, while doing nothing wrong, IMPLIES that you are doing something wrong. And we already said it depends on his tone "why are you carrying" vs "hey man what are you carrying"

This really is not that difficult to understand, and its almost comical. You big posters are always telling us newbs to live in the real world, but yet very often you are the one living in a perfect fantasy world. Next time you get "approached" about carrying, say to the officer "have a nice day" and walk away. I dare you. I guarantee it will not be a happy ending like you all propose it would be.
There are far more instances of people politely declining to speak with the police during a mere encounter than there are instances of police officers overstepping their bounds and crossing constitutional lines. The problem is that the instances where the officer does the right thing never seem to make it to YouTube.

There are over 800,000 sworn officers in the US. I would wager that on a national scale, it would be safe to say that conservatively, at least half of those officers have contact with the public daily. And yet we only see a very few cases,comparatively, nationwide, per year regarding police misconduct. Meanwhile, there are literally thousands of contacts between police officers and the public every day that do not result in anything close to what you are talking about.

But hey, if it wasn't recorded and we can't produce video, then it didn't happen, right?
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Browning 35 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:43 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:Honestly, I'd say that a vast majority of cops are good guys. You choose to do a tough job for crap pay, and you keep doing it. That deserves some respect, so seriously, thank you.

That said, you guys are human like the rest of us. One bad encounter with one cop that isn't as awesome as most is all it takes to make a lot of people reasonably concerned about interacting with police officers.
That's actually a really good way of putting it.
I know a lot of us have felt, and I'm sure most of us have at least read others talking about, feeling nervous when CCing if we're not used to doing it, worried that the gun is 'printing,' and all that. It's natural that if someone is used to CCing and not OCing, they're going to feel nervous about it; it sounds like the OP was.

I wonder if that nervousness didn't cue a "let's go talk to that guy" reaction from the officers that might not have happened otherwise?
It's quite possible. Reading people's body language and observing cues does play into looking who to stop or make contact with.

OC might be unusual enough it that particular area with or without the nervousness added to it (if any was visible).
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Spd164 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:46 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Spd164 wrote:And I do understand what you are saying IRT the attitude making the difference. Only thing I can say is not everyone on the job is as naturally fucking awesome at it as I am.
:mrgreen:

Honestly, I'd say that a vast majority of cops are good guys. You choose to do a tough job for crap pay, and you keep doing it. That deserves some respect, so seriously, thank you.

That said, you guys are human like the rest of us. One bad encounter with one cop that isn't as awesome as most is all it takes to make a lot of people reasonably concerned about interacting with police officers. (I suppose just how reasonable is a matter of debate, but I think reasonable people can have reasonable differences of opinion on that.)

Anyway, going back to the OP, I re-read this:
As I drove in I did a quick scan for and LEO vehicles so I could avoid a confrontation while carrying. Since I was already wearing the holster (a SERPA) on my belt, rather than take it off I placed my regular carry gun (a Glock 30) in it. As I was walking into the store, out of the corner of my eye I saw two sheriffs cruisers pulling in beside me. I let out a "damn" under my breath because I knew they would say something.
Before I say ANYTHING else, I want to be clear that I am not, not, NOT accusing the OP of doing anything wrong. In fact, I'm not even saying the officers in question were doing anything wrong. Not in the least.

I know a lot of us have felt, and I'm sure most of us have at least read others talking about, feeling nervous when CCing if we're not used to doing it, worried that the gun is 'printing,' and all that. It's natural that if someone is used to CCing and not OCing, they're going to feel nervous about it; it sounds like the OP was.

I wonder if that nervousness didn't cue a "let's go talk to that guy" reaction from the officers that might not have happened otherwise? As an officer, is that something you could comment on?


At the same time, unfortunately, it's not hard to understand why the OP might have been nervous. Regardless, I'm glad the interaction went as well as it did.
You're welcome. It's actually my pleasure. Seriously.

To answer your very astute question, yes, being "more nervous than a reasonable person would be under similar circumstances" can definitely draw the attention of an observant individual, badge or not.

Looking like you are acting in a way that I like to call "hinkey" (that's a technical term, for all you non-narcs out there) is a sure way to get you noticed. The more hinked up you look, the more suspicious you appear.

I work very hard and have studied myself at length to become proficient at observing things while appearing to see nothing. I'm great at being the most lethal, dangerous motherfucker in the immediate area while appearing to be nothing more than just another wal-mart shopper. The converse is also true, and often unintentional.

In other words, when you start looking around suspiciously, hoping no one notices, chances are its obvious that you are trying not to be noticed. I don't know, I'm kinda having trouble putting what I mean into words here. It's such an intangible, imprecise thing. I totally get what you are saying though, even though I can't really do much more than say yeah, maybe they did key off his perceived hinkiness.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Browning 35 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:54 pm

Spd164 wrote:The problem is that the instances where the officer does the right thing never seem to make it to YouTube.
Well...I'll give you that there are more action-type videos and ones portraying cops in a bad light (some deserved, some not) on YouTube.

The ones where cops are ultra-professional make it on there as well though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsac2KhgAbg&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N30TagPCNE4&sns=em

Most people want to see the action videos though, so there's less of it.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:03 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote: Anyway, going back to the OP, I re-read this:
As I drove in I did a quick scan for and LEO vehicles so I could avoid a confrontation while carrying. Since I was already wearing the holster (a SERPA) on my belt, rather than take it off I placed my regular carry gun (a Glock 30) in it. As I was walking into the store, out of the corner of my eye I saw two sheriffs cruisers pulling in beside me. I let out a "damn" under my breath because I knew they would say something.
Before I say ANYTHING else, I want to be clear that I am not, not, NOT accusing the OP of doing anything wrong. In fact, I'm not even saying the officers in question were doing anything wrong. Not in the least.

I know a lot of us have felt, and I'm sure most of us have at least read others talking about, feeling nervous when CCing if we're not used to doing it, worried that the gun is 'printing,' and all that. It's natural that if someone is used to CCing and not OCing, they're going to feel nervous about it; it sounds like the OP was.

I wonder if that nervousness didn't cue a "let's go talk to that guy" reaction from the officers that might not have happened otherwise? As an officer, is that something you could comment on?


At the same time, unfortunately, it's not hard to understand why the OP might have been nervous. Regardless, I'm glad the interaction went as well as it did.
Plenty of combat vets used to looking for nervous ne'er-do-wells who now wear a different uniform, so that's entirely possible. Honestly a better reaction would have been a smile and eye contact, maybe a "How y'all doin' today" or whatever is the local version of "Hows yer momma'nem?" Just saying, if I was that cop, my experience tells me that the guy who belts out a greeting and smiles is less liekly to me trouble than the guy who won't make eye contact.

Devil's Advocate: what if they were expecting you to be a dick and whip out a camera, and wanted to get on youtube being nice, calm cops? Could have also been a senior officer practicing casual encounters (giggity) with a rookie to show him how it's done, or could be transplanted cops, one of whom didn't honestly know the OC law, or could just be interested to talk to a guy carrying a nice gun.

Point is, they were within the law, you were within the law, why get bent outta shape about it? IF you don't like the law, there is a process to try to change it. IF you feel like they were out of line even though technically correct, contact the department. If you really want to be helpful, stand and talk to them. I have educated people of all types about NFA weapons who honestly didn't know any better. I could have gotten and/or snarky because they asked to see my license for selling a 7" AR pistol, or I could take the time while I was at work to explain why it wasn't an SBR and explain some of the delicate pieces of the law. Ended up selling a couple guns that way.

At the end of the day, a cop is a dude like me who gets paid to deal with shitty people. there are people who hate Marines because one or two shitty Marines treated them poorly; the same happens with cops, except more people get to meet shitty cops. When it comes right down to it, you will meet idiots, criminals, the uninformed, and good people in any profession. I've found it much easier to follow General Mattis' teachings and give everyone the benefit of the doubt by treating them with respect. Cops get a bad rap because they all wear the same* uniform, kinda the way all politicians and lawyers get a bad rap because it's easier to hate them all than to acknowledge that most of us actually meet very few of them and that they're humans like the rest of us.

I think B35 said it very well. Most people wanna see flaming wrecks, not well mannered polite peace officers. Just like most OCers are polite, well mannered people, but the vocal minority of them are assholes who wants to get good stories or videos so they can get a virtual pat on the back for "defending the Constitution" so that they can feel like they matter.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Spd164 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:06 pm

Browning 35 wrote:
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:Honestly, I'd say that a vast majority of cops are good guys. You choose to do a tough job for crap pay, and you keep doing it. That deserves some respect, so seriously, thank you.

That said, you guys are human like the rest of us. One bad encounter with one cop that isn't as awesome as most is all it takes to make a lot of people reasonably concerned about interacting with police officers.
That's actually a really good way of putting it.
If I were to say: "I had a bad encounter with a black guy once, so now I am concerned about all the black people in my neighborhood" what kind of response do you think I would receive here.

The characteristics of many should never be determined by the actions of a few. And yet, its totally acceptable to state that it is reasonable to be suspicious of the motives of all police officers based on negative interactions with one? Even worse, what we see now is that its totally acceptable to be suspicious based on negative interactions that we heard about other people having.

If I got robbed by a spanish guy, does that mean I should forever be suspicious of spanish people and assume they are all out to rob me? Or even more appropriate, if I watch a YouTube video of a spanish guy robbing someone, does that justify my suspicion and lifelong anger towards spanish people?
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Spd164 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:13 pm

Look, we've gone way off track here, but its ok because it's been reasonable and productive for the most part I think.

I'm just trying to illustrate that like B35 said, we are all people. People are different. Different people handle things different ways. Cops can and do benefit from keeping that in mind during their daily interactions with the public. The public would do well to keep in mind that the guy in the blue suit with the badge is a person too.

All I'm saying is that we should always look at things on a case by case basis, and in this case, according to the OP's account of events, no involved parties did anything even remotely wrong. That's been the only point I really wanted to make all along.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by DarkAxel » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:52 pm

My state is an OC/CC state, and I do both. Before I got my CCWP, I open carried everywhere (with the exception of places where OC was not allowed by law or by owner). When I do open carry, I don't immediately assume that every business I patronize is OK with OC, so I do them the courtesy of leaving my weapon locked in my vehicle when I go inside. I just wear my empty holster into the store. If I do a lot of business at that place, I'll ask about it or look for signage.

As for encounters with LEOs, if you feel like you are being detained, asked them. It's as simple as asking "Am I free to go?" If they say no they better have a good justification for it.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:59 pm

DarkAxel wrote:My state is an OC/CC state, and I do both. Before I got my CCWP, I open carried everywhere (with the exception of places where OC was not allowed by law or by owner). When I do open carry, I don't immediately assume that every business I patronize is OK with OC, so I do them the courtesy of leaving my weapon locked in my vehicle when I go inside. I just wear my empty holster into the store. If I do a lot of business at that place, I'll ask about it or look for signage.

As for encounters with LEOs, if you feel like you are being detained, asked them. It's as simple as asking "Am I free to go?" If they say no they better have a good justification for it.
One that tends to work is "Hey, I'm sorry to be rude but I'm on a deadline. I'd love to chat but I really need to get a move on if there's nothing else pressing." Or something along those lines.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:19 am

Thanks for the response; your answer was pretty much exactly what I was expecting. And yeah, I totally get "hinkey." Something that sets your "Spidey senses" off is definitely "hinkey." Like you said, hard to explain it in words, but easier to recognize in experience. Learning to get past the "hinky" feeling/stop giving the "hinky" vibe when you're not doing anything wrong (for the benefit of the OP and any of the rest of us that can relate to that feeling), is probably a bit tougher. I think that it probably comes down to practice (read: familiarity), and attitude.

I think Doc hit the nail on the head:
Honestly a better reaction would have been a smile and eye contact, maybe a "How y'all doin' today" or whatever is the local version of "Hows yer momma'nem?"
Casual, friendly, and "I don't have a damn thing to hide."


Something that occurred to me (pay no mind, just thinking out loud here...):

OP isn't an OC neophyte--he already said that he OCs at work pretty regularly, so he's not uncomfortable or unfamiliar with the gun on his hip; it wasn't what he was doing, but where he was doing it, that made him uncomfortable--but he felt out of his element. As a result, he was in a heightened state of awareness (looking around for police vehicles, etc).

Armed, visibly nervous, entering a convenience store? Yeah, I can't exactly fault the cops for talking to him. How to do that right...well, it sounds like they did okay. They'll probably do better next time, since it sounds like they learned from the encounter, too, so credit to the OP for that. :)


Now, before someone says "yeah, that's easy for you to say," yes, it is. I'll admit it. Not everyone can relate to the same set of circumstances.

I grew up in a small town, didn't have a lot of cops, and while some did get reputations of being a "power-hungry douche with a badge," everybody knew everybody, and I knew I wasn't doing anything illegal, so when they'd stop by to make sure we weren't a bunch of minors getting drunk in the park (or something like that), why not be friendly and offer him a pepsi? It made things go more smoothly if someone had their stereo up a little too loud the next time, or whatever.

I'll also admit that living in southern Arizona for a while, it got pretty comfortable OCing. Plenty of folks do (it's fun to see what everybody else carries, personally), but there are still some folks (like my wife, bless her heart) that still don't notice. :crazy: One thing I have noticed recently, though, is that while OC is legal here in Utah, it's not as common, and I've noticed that I haven't felt as comfortable doing so. Something I need to work on again, I guess.
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Re: First Confrontation While Open Carrying

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:39 am

Spd164 wrote:
Browning 35 wrote:
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:Honestly, I'd say that a vast majority of cops are good guys. You choose to do a tough job for crap pay, and you keep doing it. That deserves some respect, so seriously, thank you.

That said, you guys are human like the rest of us. One bad encounter with one cop that isn't as awesome as most is all it takes to make a lot of people reasonably concerned about interacting with police officers.
That's actually a really good way of putting it.
If I were to say: "I had a bad encounter with a black guy once, so now I am concerned about all the black people in my neighborhood" what kind of response do you think I would receive here.

The characteristics of many should never be determined by the actions of a few. And yet, its totally acceptable to state that it is reasonable to be suspicious of the motives of all police officers based on negative interactions with one? Even worse, what we see now is that its totally acceptable to be suspicious based on negative interactions that we heard about other people having.

If I got robbed by a spanish guy, does that mean I should forever be suspicious of spanish people and assume they are all out to rob me? Or even more appropriate, if I watch a YouTube video of a spanish guy robbing someone, does that justify my suspicion and lifelong anger towards spanish people?
Right when I thought we were getting somewhere. :|

You realize this is like comparing the OP's encounter with a traffic stop, don't you? Entirely different things?
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