Tweaker Confrontation

Share a survival experience with us and explain what you learned from it. You might help someone.

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Tweaker Confrontation

Post by roOism » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:15 am

This happened a few weeks ago. I work at a store with a number of nearby halfway houses, and there are a fair number of crazies in the area wandering the streets. There is one guy that I see periodically wandering the streets screaming at the top of his lungs something to the effect of, "mother f*cking white mother f*ckers we got a black president now you f*cking cracker f*ckers!" etc. Every time I've ever seen him he's like this.

So one night I'm working late, everyone else has left, and at 8:00ish I lock up and head towards the parking lot which is a block away. As I'm walking up to the lot I hear this guy off in the distance cussing up a storm. (side note, the lot is empty except for my car). I hear this guy getting louder and turn to see that he's looking right at me and screaming his usual stuff. I pretend to ignore him and keep walking towards my car. When I'm about thirty feet from my car I hear bike tires in the lot, and turn to see him bearing down towards me.

Instead of his usual stuff, now he's screaming that he's going to "f*ck up this white mother f*cking cracker". He's about thirty feet away when he stops and gets off his bike. He's in jeans and a small t shirt, hands in plain view waving wildly, so I'm fairly sure he's not armed, but didn't want to risk it, or risk getting in physical confrontation. I holler back and tell the guy to walk away, which just pisses him off, and he starts walking at me screaming "I'm going to kill you white f*cker!"

Ok so now he's threatened me and too close for comfort, so I take a step forward, put my right hand out in the "stop" position, and put my left hand on my gun (back side holster, chambered and ready to go), and shout something to the effect of "back the f*ck off or I will put you down". There may have been a few more choice expletives, my heart was doing a dream theater drum solo.

Anyway, the guy looked right at my left side and got the picture, without losing a beat he turned and ran for his bike and took off, still screaming about the crackers.

That's about as close as I've come to a potentially dangerous confrontation, definitely got the blood pumping. I wasn't sure if I should have called the police, but decided against it. After taking a few seconds to collect myself I hopped in my car and headed for home.

Funnily enough I saw the guy a block away standing on a street corner shouting his same drivel at a passing group of bikers on choppers, haha.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Achilles21 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:31 am

You handled the situation fine, but you should have called that in to the police. If it ever escalates to that point where you need to draw your weapon (which it absolutely did) then the police need to be contacted. I'd hate to see the guy eventually hurt someone, as you just never know with people on dope. I'm sure officers in the area know the guy pretty well and have taken him in a couple times. So if you call in they'll have him scooped up in no time and stuck with some serious charges.

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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by roOism » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:37 am

Thanks. Oh, in case I was unclear I didn't actually draw my weapon. The body language got my point across.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Achilles21 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:52 am

No you were clear, I just didn't read it correctly. I'd still call it in even if you didn't have to draw. The guy may be relatively harmless, or may be highly dangerous. Either way it sounds like he's on some kind of dope and has got some preexisting issues. Officers in the area are probably looking to get this guy off the street, but they need cooperation from the people he's harassed and threatened.

I'm sure this guy has had numerous run in's similar or worse to your case and needs some kind of help. But like I said the officers can only do so much, they need you and any other people who have had experiences with him to report the incidents. Then they'll be able to get him the help he needs, and keep him from potentially hurting someone in the future.

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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by BattleVersion » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:39 am

Disaster avoided, I'd call this one a win.
I have a 911 app I can access from my phones lock screen (dials 911 give me my current address via GPS).
I make it a habit to keep my phone in my weak hand and I should already be using this app before I ever go for my weapon.
I can always drop the phone if I have to draw.
In the two altercations I have been in, calling 911 stopped the aggressor, and prompted them to leave.
their attention was also fixated on the phone at my ear and not my hand on my pistol.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Murph » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:21 am

I personally like what Craig "Southnarc" Douglas teaches for Managing Unknown Contacts. There are a couple DVDs out on it, and it is a key part to his Extreme Close Quarters Concepts (ECQC) course. There is a number of people on the board that have gone through the course, myself included, and I highly recommend it.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Happy Go Lucky » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:56 pm

For my own education, I'll post the following question:

If you are armed, and feel genuinely threatened -- I believe the poster definitely had the right conditions that would satisfy any reasonable second guesser he was under threat-- would it be advisable to make it very clear you are armed? e.g., draw the weapon or at least clearly state "I am armed."

The poster said "back the f*ck off or I will put you down". That is a definitive statement of intended resistance but doesn't make it clear, at least to me, that you are in possession of a gun. I understand the attacker recognized the poster was ready to draw something- but a witness may not have seen it so clearly if the attacker had ended up getting shot.

I do not conceal carry, so I ask this as a theoretical question.

Again this situation seems perfect, the poster is in an open lot and not actually near his car-- so retreat is not reasonable, not really anywhere to go.

I'll follow any opinions/ responses, but will ask, please keep this in the realm of the poster's world: If you had taken an action and the cops then showed up how would that play out. In other words, please don't just state "I would have wasted the muther!"
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by MacWa77ace » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:03 pm

Happy Go Lucky wrote:For my own education, I'll post the following question:

If you are armed, and feel genuinely threatened -- I believe the poster definitely had the right conditions that would satisfy any reasonable second guesser he was under threat-- would it be advisable to make it very clear you are armed? e.g., draw the weapon or at least clearly state "I am armed."

The poster said "back the f*ck off or I will put you down". That is a definitive statement of intended resistance but doesn't make it clear, at least to me, that you are in possession of a gun. I understand the attacker recognized the poster was ready to draw something- but a witness may not have seen it so clearly if the attacker had ended up getting shot.

I do not conceal carry, so I ask this as a theoretical question.

Again this situation seems perfect, the poster is in an open lot and not actually near his car-- so retreat is not reasonable, not really anywhere to go.

I'll follow any opinions/ responses, but will ask, please keep this in the realm of the poster's world: If you had taken an action and the cops then showed up how would that play out. In other words, please don't just state "I would have wasted the muther!"
Against a single unarmed aggressor, I vote no. OP glad your ok.
Sounds like OP used Paul Blarts 'hip check' technique. That will either work or it won't, if it doesn't the aggressor now thinks you've got a gun, and unless you want to shoot an unarmed guy, you'll be fighting for retention. Or even worse back off and ambush you later to steal it off you. That's why I don't like announcing it.

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Initially I'd use Billy Ray Valentine's 'Quart of Blood' technique.

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And if its more than one guy or they have a stick [or better], they won't know they picked the wrong guy until it's to late for them.

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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Boondock » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:22 pm

Had a similar encounter about 10 years ago, reacted verbally and physically almost exactly as did the OP. Afterward, I realized I'd left my weapon at home. :shock:

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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by DialM » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:10 pm

roOism wrote: Anyway, the guy looked right at my left side and got the picture, without losing a beat he turned and ran for his bike and took off, still screaming about the crackers.
Annnnnd you should call the police immediately at that point. Imagine if his rant changed to, "damn cracker just threatened to hunt me down and shoot me," just as he encountered the cop around the corner. You had better be the first one to get your story on the record.

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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by charadeur » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:19 pm

DialM wrote:
roOism wrote: Anyway, the guy looked right at my left side and got the picture, without losing a beat he turned and ran for his bike and took off, still screaming about the crackers.
Annnnnd you should call the police immediately at that point. Imagine if his rant changed to, "damn cracker just threatened to hunt me down and shoot me," just as he encountered the cop around the corner. You had better be the first one to get your story on the record.
I agree. First to make the police report normally wins. Though in this case I don't think you had much to worry about. I'm sure the cops know about this guy.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Murph » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:06 am

The Zombie Apocalypse better hurry up and get here if we've resorted to quoting movies for self-defense techniques.
:(
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Fingerfood » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:35 am

It's impossible to say what "The Law" is exactly, unless you are Judge Dredd. If George Zimmerman had been in a 90% black county when he shot TM he would probably be in jail now. If OJ had been tried in the backwoods of TN he would probably have been convicted. This is why lawyers virtually never give a straight answer in regards to outcome: a jury trial will end the way the jury wants it to end, all you can do is influence the jury to some degree.

So even the same law can be interpreted differently by different juries, and then you get to the fact that each state has its own laws, and each federal court can have its own interpretation of the same federal laws... Anyway, the point is ask a local lawyer for specifics about the law in your area. For some very general tips:
It is rarely a good idea to back someone off by showing them a firearm. You just made a terroristic threat, with only your word against his that you felt justifiably threatened.
Example:
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showth ... p?t=266820" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A disreputable sort showed up at the OPs door after hurricane Rita, the OP showed him his shotgun (did not point it at him). A short time later the police show up accusing him of threatening the guy at gunpoint, and took the gun from him. Eventually he got it back and I don't think he was convicted, but had to go through the rest of Rita w/o a firearm.

In general pointing a gun at someone is only justifiable in the same situations that shooting them are, in defense of human life. But if you truly thought human life was in danger you wouldn't have merely pointed a gun at someone, you would have shot them. Therefore by NOT pulling the trigger you prove that you yourself did not think there was justification to point the gun at them. Prosecutors have argued this...

One thing that virtually all lawyers wold agree with is that you should call the police, especially if you are likely to encounter this guy again (as it seems you would.) If you do end up shooting this guy at some point it will be VERY helpful to your lawyer if there is a documented history of him previously confronting you, and you not shooting him.

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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by maldon007 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:20 pm

Sounds like you did the right thing... one might add in the warning that one is in fear for one's life, making it clear to any witnesses and attackers that deadly force is on one's mind :D


But had you shot him (before being physically attacked... and even then...), and he had been unarmed & not substantially larger or obviously waaay stronger than you, it could go very badly in court.


Fingerfood wrote: But if you truly thought human life was in danger you wouldn't have merely pointed a gun at someone, you would have shot them. Therefore by NOT pulling the trigger you prove that you yourself did not think there was justification to point the gun at them. Prosecutors have argued this...
A lot can happen between deciding your life is in danger & deciding to draw.... And pulling the trigger. You draw, they turn/run, you shoot?? Bad. You draw, they even pause aggression, you shoot, still bad... So no, drawing a weapon never means shooting must follow or should follow, legally. But yeah, as a general rule, you shouldn't draw unless you mean to (in that instant) take a life in defense of a life.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:39 pm

maldon007 wrote:Sounds like you did the right thing... one might add in the warning that one is in fear for one's life, making it clear to any witnesses and attackers that deadly force is on one's mind :D

Fingerfood wrote: But if you truly thought human life was in danger you wouldn't have merely pointed a gun at someone, you would have shot them. Therefore by NOT pulling the trigger you prove that you yourself did not think there was justification to point the gun at them. Prosecutors have argued this...
A lot can happen between deciding your life is in danger & deciding to draw.... And pulling the trigger. You draw, they turn/run, you shoot?? Bad. You draw, they even pause aggression, you shoot, still bad... So no, drawing a weapon never means shooting must follow or should follow, legally. But yeah, as a general rule, you shouldn't draw unless you mean to (in that instant) take a life in defense of a life.
Reasonable doubt and (depending on state law) ability to articulate the threat. Case law shows that saying "I'm in fear for my life" or other lawyer phrases don't mean shit if you can't back it up.

My metric is the one we used overseas.
Hostile Act/Hostile Intent AND Positive ID.
If I see you walking up with a molotov cocktail and a lighter like the case in Canada, you're getting shot. I can see hostile intent (illegal incendiary device and the means to use it) and positively ID (I can see who has it and they are not LE) the threat. Someone comes in my house at night, I have a hostile act (Florida law) and I have a light on ym gun to provide positive ID so that I don't shoot the neighbor's kid or something by accident.

Now this is where some say the metric fails. I'm in the mall getting some chicken and waffles in the food court and hear gunfire. People are screaming and from the looks of things the Hamburglar is down and Grimace may be wounded. More gunfire. I can see someone shooting, but I can see what he's shooting at. Do I shoot?

No. I can't tell if he's engaging the shooter or if he is the shooter. Guy could be another CCer, could be a undercover cop. By the numbers, there are about 900,000 valid Florida CCWs, and we accept a number of other permits as well. Figure (eliminating felons, nonresidents/noncitizens, and minors) about 33.33% of our citizens can validly possess a firearm, leaving us with 900,000 possible permits and 6.3 million people they could be issued to, and correct the ratio to 1:8 to correct for my math. There's a 1:8 chance that the guy I see shooting is a CCWer, not counting undercover or offduty LEOs. If there's one hostile shooter in the mall, that means there's a 1:700 chance that this guy is the bad guy, and a 1:8 chance he's a good guy. Without further information, shooting would be negligent at best.

Now if I can see him engaging unarmed citizens or LE, or he gives me some other reason to reasonably suspect he's a threat, I'd feel comfortable shooting. Some of you are scratching your heads or foaming at the mouth that I might let someone continue engaging when they're so obviously the bad guy. Those peopel have never taken friendly fire before and can be forgiven their ignorance.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:46 pm

A tough situation but I would have to say that you needed to call the police. His rage could have been drug related or mental illness. Remember many people with undiagnosed mental illness will self-medicate with street drugs.

If he made you nevous enough to want to draw, he is a hazard to himself and others.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Barnabus » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:23 am

DialM wrote:
roOism wrote: Anyway, the guy looked right at my left side and got the picture, without losing a beat he turned and ran for his bike and took off, still screaming about the crackers.
Annnnnd you should call the police immediately at that point. Imagine if his rant changed to, "damn cracker just threatened to hunt me down and shoot me," just as he encountered the cop around the corner. You had better be the first one to get your story on the record.
yeah, if he's a local YOU'VE seen around, that means he may have seen YOU around and knows where you work. Next time he may have a weapon, and not give you a warning (screaming insanities) before he strikes. You should have reported him to the cops.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Jsimmonsgr » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:34 pm

maldon007 wrote:Sounds like you did the right thing... one might add in the warning that one is in fear for one's life, making it clear to any witnesses and attackers that deadly force is on one's mind :D


But had you shot him (before being physically attacked... and even then...), and he had been unarmed & not substantially larger or obviously waaay stronger than you, it could go very badly in court.


Fingerfood wrote: But if you truly thought human life was in danger you wouldn't have merely pointed a gun at someone, you would have shot them. Therefore by NOT pulling the trigger you prove that you yourself did not think there was justification to point the gun at them. Prosecutors have argued this...


Except he didn't draw, he defensively displayed.....


A lot can happen between deciding your life is in danger & deciding to draw.... And pulling the trigger. You draw, they turn/run, you shoot?? Bad. You draw, they even pause aggression, you shoot, still bad... So no, drawing a weapon never means shooting must follow or should follow, legally. But yeah, as a general rule, you shouldn't draw unless you mean to (in that instant) take a life in defense of a life.
In AZ the Law states that you are allowed to use the 'threat' of deadly force to prevent a crime against a person, but it only authorizes the 'use' of force to prevent certain crimes. Over the past few years the laws have been updated to make sure that the language is VERY clear on these points. To quote:
13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition

A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
B. This section does not apply to a person who:
1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.
2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.
C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.
D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:
1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.
2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.

13-405. Justification; use of deadly physical force
A. A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:
1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and
2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.
B. A person has no duty to retreat before threatening or using deadly physical force pursuant to this section if the person is in a place where the person may legally be and is not engaged in an unlawful act.

13-411. Justification; use of force in crime prevention; applicability
A. A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's commission of arson of an occupied structure under section 13-1704, burglary in the second or first degree under section 13-1507 or 13-1508, kidnapping under section 13-1304, manslaughter under section 13-1103, second or first degree murder under section 13-1104 or 13-1105, sexual conduct with a minor under section 13-1405, sexual assault under section 13-1406, child molestation under section 13-1410, armed robbery under section 13-1904 or aggravated assault under section 13-1204, subsection A, paragraphs 1 and 2.
B. There is no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force justified by subsection A of this section.
C. A person is presumed to be acting reasonably for the purposes of this section if the person is acting to prevent what the person reasonably believes is the imminent or actual commission of any of the offenses listed in subsection A of this section.

D. This section includes the use or threatened use of physical force or deadly physical force in a person's home, residence, place of business, land the person owns or leases, conveyance of any kind, or any other place in this state where a person has a right to be.




I will agree that roOism SHOULD have called pd, if for no other reason that to go on record. However in AZ, it is not REQUIRED.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Happy Go Lucky » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:17 pm

Thank you to all for the thoughtful and interesting replies.
As I suspected- there is no right answer. Although where you are (based on legal considerations) and the precise circumstances can all have significant impact on the eventual outcome.
Just wanted you to know I appreciate your participation in this very topical subject.
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Re: Tweaker Confrontation

Post by Braxton » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:34 pm

Somehow I do not seem to have these problems.

Cultivate a good "Don't fuck with me" vibe and tweekers, crackheads, and peebums will pass you up for easy pickings.

You did everything right OP.
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