Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by ptAltered » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:30 am

Tater Raider wrote:
From Missouri Revised Statues, Ch. 571 - Weapons Offenses:
Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.
571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
(4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or

5. Subdivisions (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to persons who are engaged in a lawful act of defense pursuant to section 563.031, RSMo.
From Missouri Revised Statues, Ch. 563 - Defense of Justification:
Use of force in defense of persons.
563.031. 1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person, unless:
(1) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case his use of force is nevertheless justifiable provided
(a) He has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened use of unlawful force; or
(b) He is a law enforcement officer and as such is an aggressor pursuant to section 563.046; or
(c) The aggressor is justified under some other provision of this chapter or other provision of law;
(2) Under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would not be justified in using such protective force.
2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless he reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or another against death, serious physical injury, rape, sodomy or kidnapping or serious physical injury through robbery, burglary or arson.
Since you have not attempted to withdraw peacefully, you would have committed a crime and since they ahve it on film you would be arrested and at least temporarily (assuming you ware aquitted) deprived the use of your firearms. The fact you were arrested for a gun crime would be part of your criminal record.
Are you joking? Same $500 challenge I gave to crypto, that he's since ignored, show me where I said I'd do anything BUT LEAVE THE SITUATION and I'll donate $500 to the charity of your choice and in your, or ZS's, name to boot. You'll of course be flummoxed and aghast when you read what I've said and note that not one single thing I said was without the context of WHILE RETREATING. Five hundred bucks, I'm going to bed in ten minutes and my debit card is still out from my earlier shopping spree. Nut up/Shut up.

The difference between your response and mine is mine is legal and I admit mine is stupid, if honest.

I have a crowbar I'll let you borrow if you want to pry your head out of your ass.
Imagine how many crowbars the charity of your choice will be able to purchase with $500!! How helpful you'll be! The statues they'll build in your honor. Ten minutes and I'm in bed, show me where I said anything other than withdrawing, albeit with a weapon in my hand, and it's to any charity you want! Tick tock..
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by Oneswunk » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:31 am

I'm stripping naked and walking out unharmed. Nobody fucks with a naked guy in dirty work boots.
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by Tater Raider » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:31 am

If you pull your firearm while retreating you are brandishing. Pay up, bitch. Donation made out to Zombie Squad if you please.

Also, I'm out.

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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by ptAltered » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:34 am

It's hard to comprehend the amount of fucking reading fail that exists here.

I've never said that I'd do anything other than LEAVE, EGRESS, EXIT, EXFILTRATE, STOP BEING IN THE WALMART, SHIFT MY POSITION TO A POSITION THAT IS NOT THE WALMART, ARRANGE MY SPATIAL LOCATION TO BE MISALIGNED WITH THE INTERIOR OF THE WALMART. I know that some of our parents might not have known the dangers of lead paint in a nursery while raising kids and I'm not the type to judge. I'm just not sure how the Intarnet Lawyzers took "hold my sidearm in my hand" to be "low -ready" or now "open fire en masse into a crowd, making sure to kill children".

So, $500 challenge open to everyone here that's so fucking smart. Show me where I said ANY OTHER ACTION than egress and I swear I'll donate that $500 to a charity of your choice, even the Brady Campaign!, before I go to bed in what is now seven minutes. All you guys talking shit about what I've allegedly said... tell ya what for EACH PERSON That finds where I said anything other than leave the situation, I'll donate $500 in your name. That could be, what, Doc Torr, crypto, Tater and Dark... TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS. Right here, right now. Two grand guys, what charity gets the money?
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by ptAltered » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:36 am

Tater Raider wrote:If you pull your firearm while retreating you are brandishing. Pay up, bitch. Donation made out to Zombie Squad if you please.

Also, I'm out.

You, in fact, are not "brandishing" unless you draw in an "angry or threatening manner". Having my sidearm at my side as I EXIT THE STORE IN A SAFE MANNER, NOT SHOOTING ANYONE UNLESS MY LIFE IS THREATENED isn't "angry" or "threatning".

Four minutes left.... two grand...
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by crypto » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:37 am

ptAltered wrote:
crypto wrote:Sure thing: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000030.HTM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't see anything there relating to brandishing. See previous post.
Its Section (4).
(4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or
Having a gun in your hand is "a threatening manner" if the police or prosecutor dont think it was justified for you to have produced it, and the criteria for producing it is also found on that URL:
2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless he reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or another against death, serious physical injury, rape, sodomy or kidnapping or serious physical injury through robbery, burglary or arson.
And that's the basis for my assessment that one can't produce a weapon in response to a bunch of people committing property crimes but not being violent towards anyone.
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by ptAltered » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:41 am

crypto wrote:
ptAltered wrote:
crypto wrote:Sure thing: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000030.HTM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't see anything there relating to brandishing. See previous post.
Its Section (4).
(4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or
Having a gun in your hand is "a threatening manner" if the police or prosecutor dont think it was justified for you to have produced it, and the criteria for producing it is also found on that URL:
2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless he reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or another against death, serious physical injury, rape, sodomy or kidnapping or serious physical injury through robbery, burglary or arson.
And that's the basis for my assessment that one can't produce a weapon in response to a bunch of people committing property crimes but not being violent towards anyone.
THEFT IS VIOLENCE. Anyway...

Did you read about the IMMINENT use of unlawful force? If I can articulate that I think a large group of people involved in a felony "might" pose an "imminent" threat, then it's not brandishing. If I REASONABLY BELIEVE. Are you seriously saying that you think most Americans would think that a flash mob isn't a situation where a threat is "IMMINENT"?
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:41 am

Like Kent said, people should really do a background check on someone's posts before arguing with them on the internet and assuming a whole bunch of shit.

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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by ptAltered » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:43 am

Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote:Like Kent said, people should really do a background check on someone's posts before arguing with them on the internet and assuming a whole bunch of shit.

-
Yeah, most people are probably too busy finishing their L.LD in "Internet Law" to be bothered.

Those same "most people" have probably never seen violence first hand, or the victims there of, or little old ladies with their skulls split open from the peace loving youth gently massaging her with a pipe.
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by ptAltered » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:46 am

It's been thirteen minutes and not one of you has managed to substantiate your claim that I've said to do anything other than to RETREAT while holding your firearm. Not one citation of me claiming to shoot anyone over a property crime or to try to back the mob down with a weapon. IF two thousand dollars can't motivate you to find it, it's because you're having a fucking hallucination (or engaging in straw man arguments).

I'm staying up a few more minutes, two grand on the line here. Any one that's argued against me by mis-stating my position, the offer is still open; show where I said that you should do any other thing than leave the store and I'll donate it to the charity of your choice.
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by crypto » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:49 am

ptAltered wrote: THEFT IS VIOLENCE
No, its a property crime. Robbery is violence.

Your challenge is overly simplistic bullshit designed solely to leave you feeling smug, and Im not biting.

You say "hey I just want to leave, dont mind me and dont mind the fact that I'm running around with a drawn gun" and /insist/ thats not going to cause the situation to become more volatile and that its not going to draw you into a fight.

I think thats entirely wrong. I think your actions are designed to provoke a fight.
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by crypto » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:53 am

ptAltered wrote: Are you seriously saying that you think most Americans would think that a flash mob isn't a situation where a threat is "IMMINENT"?
A flash mob where no one is getting hurt? Yes, I am saying that.

You need to chill out on the condescension you're showing in this thread. Please don't assume that your experience and knowledge are the only ones with merit. Additionally, you're busting people's balls for 'internet lawyering' when you're the one who EXPRESSLY asked me to produce Missouri Revised Statutes.
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:54 am

Oneswunk wrote:I'm stripping naked and walking out unharmed. Nobody fucks with a naked guy in dirty work boots.
You tease.
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by ptAltered » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:54 am

crypto wrote:
ptAltered wrote: THEFT IS VIOLENCE
No, its a property crime. Robbery is violence.

Your challenge is overly simplistic bullshit designed solely to leave you feeling smug, and Im not biting.

You say "hey I just want to leave, dont mind me and dont mind the fact that I'm running around with a drawn gun" and /insist/ thats not going to cause the situation to become more volatile and that its not going to draw you into a fight.

I think thats entirely wrong. I think your actions are designed to provoke a fight.
I think your entire history of replying in this thread is logical fallacies. From when you straw-manned that I'd be leaving in "low ready" to where you insinuated that I suggested shooting over a property crime, it's all just making things up and pretending that it's what I've said. Your linked story about some guy that commits murder has NOTHING to do with my position of LEAVE THE PLACE IMMEDIATELY and was designed to CREATE an argument that you can defeat rather than dealing with my actual response.

I'd just like you to admit that, when things got heated, you put words into my mouth and you and your pals have been busy arguing over those alleged "MURDER THE MOTHERFUCKER" posts than the reality of my response which was, to smash this beaten horse into atoms in the ground, EVACUATE THE LOCATION . I never said anything about shooting unless I was being threatened, I never said anything about AIMING the weapon at them unless I was being threatened, I never said anything about confronting the mob, did I?
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by Jwinnfield » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:58 am

leave quietly through the nearest exit or more likely the lawn care and garden center , i do not know the layout of all walmarts but the ones i've been to the younger crowd seems to avoid that area ,its almost always empty with the exception of a few people purchasing mulch and potting soil

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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by ptAltered » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:59 am

crypto wrote:
ptAltered wrote: Are you seriously saying that you think most Americans would think that a flash mob isn't a situation where a threat is "IMMINENT"?
A flash mob where no one is getting hurt? Yes, I am saying that.
Dude, no offense man, it's just the internet and I swear I'm not being a dick here, but do you really know how to read?
Let's try this again....

I asked if you thought that the notion of a flash mob as a place of "imminent" violence was accurate.....

YOU answered that flash mobs occur where no one gets hurt.

That's just simply NOT what I was asking. Fuck man, if you think it's TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE for it to not turn violent, why do anything? Keep shopping, maybe ask one of the youth if they can help you reach something, continue on your way. Why leave a situation that isn't, or doesn't have the potential of being, violent?
You need to chill out on the condescension you're showing in this thread. Please don't assume that your experience and knowledge are the only ones with merit. Additionally, you're busting people's balls for 'internet lawyering' when you're the one who EXPRESSLY asked me to produce Missouri Revised Statutes.
I did and I have no problem with that. A frank discussion is one thing, being called a bitch by some guy that I'd bet another two thousand dollars doesn't have a LLD on something that, I think we can all admit is a bit vague ("threatening manner", etc) is the epitome of internet lawyerizm.

I'm condescending because you're wasting your time arguing with your false assumptions and intentional mischaracterizations of what I've said. Argue with me instead of your straw men and I'll stop being condescending.

Just so I can go ahead and stow my debit card, we're all understanding that I NEVER said anything OTHER than egress; I never said to point hte weapon at them, I never said to shoot, I never said "low -ready".... we're clear on that right?
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by Oneswunk » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:03 am

Doc Torr wrote:
Oneswunk wrote:I'm stripping naked and walking out unharmed. Nobody fucks with a naked guy in dirty work boots.
You tease.
:lol: Ok maybe some will fuck with the naked guy in dirty work boots.
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by crypto » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:04 am

ptAltered wrote: I think your entire history of replying in this thread is logical fallacies. From when you straw-manned that I'd be leaving in "low ready" to where you insinuated that I suggested shooting over a property crime, it's all just making things up and pretending that it's what I've said. Your linked story about some guy that commits murder has NOTHING to do with my position of LEAVE THE PLACE IMMEDIATELY and was designed to CREATE an argument that you can defeat rather than dealing with my actual response.

I'd just like you to admit that, when things got heated, you put words into my mouth and you and your pals have been busy arguing over those alleged "MURDER THE MOTHERFUCKER" posts than the reality of my response which was, to smash this beaten horse into atoms in the ground, EVACUATE THE LOCATION . I never said anything about shooting unless I was being threatened, I never said anything about AIMING the weapon at them unless I was being threatened, I never said anything about confronting the mob, did I?
I didn't straw man that. Either your pistol is out and ready to be used, or its safely in its holster. Or do you train to just casually walk around all day with it hanging at the end of your arm like its no big deal?

Here's what I'm saying, one more time, since you dont seem to be getting it:

1. Drawing a weapon for a property crime is not a justifiable use of a weapon in this situation any more than pre-emptively drawing a weapon because theres some guys on the corner who look like they're up to no good.

2. You saying that this in fact justifies the threat of lethal force and your subsequent drawing of the weapon means that you believe that this property crime represents a imminent threat to your life.


Finally, I am explicitly saying that

3. Your actions are going to exacerbate the situation, not make it safer.
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:08 am

ptAltered wrote:
Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote:Like Kent said, people should really do a background check on someone's posts before arguing with them on the internet and assuming a whole bunch of shit.

-
Yeah, most people are probably too busy finishing their L.LD in "Internet Law" to be bothered.
lol, I meant you.
Those same "most people" have probably never seen violence first hand, or the victims there of, or little old ladies with their skulls split open from the peace loving youth gently massaging her with a pipe.
One of the guys you're arguing with is currently in Afghanistan in an active combat role, I'd say he's seen some violence first hand.

One of the guys you're accusing of needing training and a better mindset has considerable time invested with some pretty respected trainers, documented skills drawing from CC and a lot of documented trigger time, I'm pretty sure he has an actual lawyer on speed dial just like you.

Take a breath dude. I understand you've seen some bad shit in your job/life - no one's taking that away from you - just don't assume others haven't because they advocate a different approach to yours.

Less testosterone accentuated keystrokes, and less "I'm a clean cut White guy" if you don't mind.


ninja edit: clearly I don't type very fast.

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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by ptAltered » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:11 am

crypto wrote:]
I didn't straw man that. Either your pistol is out and ready to be used, or its safely in its holster. Or do you train to just casually walk around all day with it hanging at the end of your arm like its no big deal?
I call it "detroit ready". Look for my new self defense book in the fall.

Here's what I'm saying, one more time, since you dont seem to be getting it:

1. Drawing a weapon for a property crime is not a justifiable use of a weapon in this situation any more than pre-emptively drawing a weapon because theres some guys on the corner who look like they're up to no good.
OK, now we're at a point we can discuss this. I'm not drawing to protect Wal-Mart! I'm not drawing to protect the McDonalds or the eye store up front. I'm pre-emptively drawing my firearm because the store went from VERY VERY LOW probablity of me being assaulted to "A large crowd of felons has entered the store and could, in the flash of an eye, start killing people". This ties in to the other thread I'm sure you were involved where the guy was assaulted and battered in the mens room and people acted like it was just a gentle warm massage instead of potentially a second away from a violent encounter. Does EVERY flash mob kill someone? Nope. Do some? Yep. To what degree of being killed by a mob of 'youth' go up when there is, in fact, a flash mob of youth in the same building I'm in? A billion fold, to the billionth power.
2. You saying that this in fact justifies the threat of lethal force and your subsequent drawing of the weapon means that you believe that this property crime represents a imminent threat to your life.
The law we've both just posted doesn't say anything about lethal force being a pre-req to draw the weapon. I could have thought that they were out to commit sodomy! Holding a sidearm in my hand isn't "threatening", AIMING it at someone is threatening, going to HUNT the bad guys is threatening, being an American citizen holding my lawfully owned firearm in my hand when a bunch of "potentially" violent criminals with a HUGE disparity of force comes into a building with felonious intent is NOT threatening!


3. Your actions are going to exacerbate the situation, not make it safer.
You have nothing to base that off of. It's just an opinion. I can cite THOUSANDS of shootings where the people just sat there and died, they didn't make it any less or more dangerous. I also have no evidence that pulling a gun out makes you MORE likely to be accosted or increases the chance that the mob will attack you.

If you don't admit that the POTENTIAL of violence exists; why do ANYTHING different? It's just like walking past a street performance, right?
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by ptAltered » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:19 am

Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote: lol, I meant you.
Yeah I picked up on that. My reply would have made no sense if you weren't talking about me.
One of the guys you're arguing with is currently in Afghanistan in an active combat role, I'd say he's seen some violence first hand.
I bet he walks around with his M4 tucked in the HMMWV, right? Probably not. I can't afford the lawyer bills from walking around open carrying my rifle so I've got to carry an anemic little pistol concealed. If I've got to use it then I'd prefer, much like a combat Marine, to have it IN MY HANDS rather than ANYWHERE ELSE.
One of the guys you're accusing of needing training and a better mindset has considerable time invested with some pretty respected trainers, documented skills drawing from CC and a lot of documented trigger time, I'm pretty sure he has an actual lawyer on speed dial just like you.
Sometimes combat vets freeze up, sometimes the 75 year old granny uses her .357 Mag to take out a car full of gang bangers. Self defense is more of a mental skill than a technical skill and a warrior mindset is more important than your IDPA average score. Not trying to bash, just saying what I think.
Take a breath dude. I understand you've seen some bad shit in your job/life - no one's taking that away from you - just don't assume others haven't because they advocate a different approach to yours.
I'm not worried about different approaches I'm worried about, and upset over, guys putting words in my mouth. As you saw, not even a cash incentive could get people to back up their words with proof. I never said to AIM at a crowd, or to shoot over property, etc etc, but I've been accused of all of that and lumped in with that crowd. I live in Colorado and go to Aurora frequently, after that shit a few weeks ago I reminded myself that I'd never die on my knees begging for my life and I'd never by getting shot in the back. If some people don't like that, it's fine with me. I'd never put words in their mouths and try to argue against the false position that I've created.
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by Blacksheep » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:31 am

ptAltered wrote:I call it "detroit ready"
:vmad:
only michiganders are allowed to make fun of detroit
I never fit in. That's my role in life, to be the outcast.

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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:43 am

ptAltered wrote:I'm worried about, and upset over, guys putting words in my mouth.
I will grant you there has been a fair bit of that in this thread, case in point the fallout from Finch's post.
I live in Colorado and go to Aurora frequently, after that shit a few weeks ago I reminded myself that I'd never die on my knees begging for my life and I'd never by getting shot in the back.
One thing that always stood out to me about Port Arthur, the mass killing that pre-empted the ban here in Australia was that a lot of the guys that got killed were shot in the back because they were shielding thier wives and children from sudden and direct rifle fire. The thought upsets me too though I'm not going to armchair quarterback it. What they did was heroic but in the magic world of "but what if" I like to think that if CCW was a reality in 1996 Tasmania, Australia that Port Arthur might have ended differently.

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"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

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squinty
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Re: Flash Mob & Rob of a WalMart

Post by squinty » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:45 am

Plan A - (not spotted or targeted yet by looters, I'm just around when they start doing their thing.) I would act casual and rapidly but discreetly walk out, whistling tunelessly, clandestinely popping a cell phone pic or video clip or two if I could get away with it. Get to car. Drive to elsewhere. Call 911.

Plan B - (at least some of them have seen me and taken an interest in me, but they haven't surrounded or cut me off.) With the best form I could muster, sprint* out. Get to car, drive to elsewhere, call 911

Plan C - (cut off or surrounded) use an area effect weapon like OC (good suggestion RG) or whatever I have at my disposal to keep looters at bay while I escaped/fought my way to an exit. If I have OC good, if I have a ccw instead ask "who's first?" as I put my back to a wall and edge toward one or another exit. It might be a long way, dang the size of a super wal-mart. If I have neither I'll grab a tool or broomstick or whatever item I can find and swing it wildly for a second or two, hopefully that will make some space around me temporarily as they back up to avoid being hit by the item (please let me have been in hardware not cosmetics) - which space I might hopefully dart through and employ plan B.


I would have some secondary apprehension about being mistaken for a shoplifter or one of the looters, thus inconvenienced or detained while that got sorted out. Less likely now that I'm a middle aged frump, but still a concern.

*vigorous jog speed for most people
George Orwell wrote:Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

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