Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Which would you rather carry into a plague of madness?

A ten-round Lee-Enfield with five-round stripper clips
51
60%
A five-round SKS with cut-down stripper clips
21
25%
A bazooka and a bad attitude
13
15%
 
Total votes: 85

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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by JTNieman » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:53 am

I typically put heavy emphasis on cheapness and availability of ammo (kinda goes hand in hand though, mirite?) because I place a lot of importance on training/practice and getting to know your rifle.

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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Craig67 » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:01 am

mantis wrote:I'm treading a fine line here but the way I see it, in the even of a zombie uprising or other PAW event, there would be a plague of small brass rivets coming lose inside semi-auto magazines all over Canada...... :shock:
My rivets are not brass .... but yeah :lol:

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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Jeriah » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:05 am

Craig67 wrote:
mantis wrote:I'm treading a fine line here but the way I see it, in the even of a zombie uprising or other PAW event, there would be a plague of small brass rivets coming lose inside semi-auto magazines all over Canada...... :shock:
My rivets are not brass .... but yeah :lol:
I think a zombie uprising constitutes a de facto repeal of much gun control legislation, or if not, then is a rock-solid necessity defense. But I'm no lawyer.
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Turtlewolf » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:08 am

One question Bubba, do have actualy have enfield strippers? My rifle is a scoped enfield and I have 3 magazines for it that all work in it, yes I know the design was not intended for magazine swaps but it can be done in a pinch. That said I would buy a decent chopped up lee enfield and make it into a scout type rifle with a long eye relief scope and keep the No. 4's peep sights as well as having the barrel shortened to 18.5". Then toss a synthetic stock on it in the painted color of your choice and voila, instant PAW or ZPAW rifle.
Hmmm....time to start looking for another enfield, I like the idea of an enfield scout.

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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Bubba Enfield » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:19 pm

Turtlewolf wrote:One question Bubba, do have actualy have enfield strippers? My rifle is a scoped enfield and I have 3 magazines for it that all work in it, yes I know the design was not intended for magazine swaps but it can be done in a pinch. That said I would buy a decent chopped up lee enfield and make it into a scout type rifle with a long eye relief scope and keep the No. 4's peep sights as well as having the barrel shortened to 18.5". Then toss a synthetic stock on it in the painted color of your choice and voila, instant PAW or ZPAW rifle.
Hmmm....time to start looking for another enfield, I like the idea of an enfield scout.

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I have a few hundred stripper clips. I make a habit of cleaning out the gunshow whenever I go, as long as they're not ridiculously priced. My Longbranch isn't scoped, so the strippers work fine. When I win the lottery, I'll definitely be getting a few more Enfields, and enough SKSs to outfit the whole family. Right now though, the firearms budget is limited. As for the ammo price, it's true that .303 ain't what it used to be. And when the SKS comes though, (stupid customs!) I'll be getting one of those 1160 rd. crates of x39. Less than $200, what a price!
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by BunkerBuster » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:37 pm

SKS, because if the dead start rising, you can modify it back to a 10 round capacity. I don't think many people will care and I'd bet your ass that you won't be thrown in jail.
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by DarkAxel » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:56 pm

I'll bring up my point again. What is the legality concerning Enfield caliber conversions? Does the Enfield suffer from any restrictions in regards to modifying it to accept, say, 7.62x39 and larger capacity detachable AK mags? I have personally fired an Enfield that had been converted to the above configuration. The mod was good. My friend and I had trouble getting it to feed reliably from 30 rd AK mags, but it was fine with 20rd mags (I think the problem was with the feed lips?).
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Bubba Enfield » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:27 pm

darkaxel wrote:I'll bring up my point again. What is the legality concerning Enfield caliber conversions? Does the Enfield suffer from any restrictions in regards to modifying it to accept, say, 7.62x39 and larger capacity detachable AK mags? I have personally fired an Enfield that had been converted to the above configuration. The mod was good. My friend and I had trouble getting it to feed reliably from 30 rd AK mags, but it was fine with 20rd mags (I think the problem was with the feed lips?).
I haven't heard of anyone doing such a conversion, but my understanding is that the mag limit only applies to semi-auto centrefires. A bolt action should be good to use whatever magazines you can feed from. I don't know if there would be a problem with owning/using a "high capacity" magazine that was designed for a semi auto. Mantis would likely know more than me on that subject.
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Turtlewolf » Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:18 pm

darkaxel wrote:I'll bring up my point again. What is the legality concerning Enfield caliber conversions? Does the Enfield suffer from any restrictions in regards to modifying it to accept, say, 7.62x39 and larger capacity detachable AK mags? I have personally fired an Enfield that had been converted to the above configuration. The mod was good. My friend and I had trouble getting it to feed reliably from 30 rd AK mags, but it was fine with 20rd mags (I think the problem was with the feed lips?).
I have seen those conversions online and as a bolt action it is not limited to magazine capacity here in Canada. I am unaware of anyone in Canada with said conversion but it would be a sweet PAW rifle. Problem is AK mag's are pretty rare and damn pricey.

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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by TafkanX » Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:01 am

AIA, the folks who made the above-referenced rifles, also offer a 7.62x39 conversion in several configurations. They look pretty cool, I would certainly look into them after acquiring the one I'm currently drooling after. I am not certain about the regulations, but most regs affect semi-auto rifles, bolties are much less regulated (here in CA, at least).

I am fairly certain that the caliber conversion is a green light pretty much everywhere (everywhere in the US, anyhow) but I'm not sure about magazine capacities. I live in CA so I pretty much stick to ten round magazines for everything (which is convenient, because the SMLE has that capacity as stock).

I am told the AIA M10 uses a modified M14/M1A magazine so in theory one might modify a higher-capacity magazine that it would accept but that's beyond my scope of knowledge (and I'm pretty happy with the mag capacity as it stands).

Disclaimer: In case anybody is suspicious of my constant pushing of AIA I should note that I am not affiliated with the company in any way beyond salivating over their weapon stock. If you must know I am trying to push up demand so that somebody with the connections or other means to do so will get them imported into the US. That's my story and I'm sticking to it :twisted:
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by FrANkNstEin » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:51 am

I for one can not recommend the AIA Smelly.

A guy i know got himself one (it was a Pita to get one here since they´re not imported by anyone at the time) mainly because of the detachable Mag and the .308 chambering. Should´ve been his SHTF/Scout rifle.
And he was not pleased with the thing at all. It wouldn´t feed properly sometimes and he had one or two other issues as well, something with the chamber IIRC. The dealer who imported it on his request refused to do any work on it or give guarantee on this rifle. (he told him so BEFORE he gave in and organized him one anyway- Yeah, that´s "not so legal" around here. But there where two options: I´ll help you get the rifle, but no guarantee. Or: Go try to import it yourself, i won´t) He had a long argument with the guy until he took the rifle back to send it back to AIA and refund the money.

And that guy had a really high opinion of the rifle before he first touched it too.... (who wouldn´t expect a supercalifragilisticexpailodocious gun for this price tag?!)

Ok, it´s just this one rifle that made problems, i can´t compare the hundreds of thousands or so others they probably put out every year. And i don´t want to talk them bad, but it´s the only experience with AIA i ever had.

While AIA is an Australian Company, the actual Manufacture of the rifle (or at least large parts of it) is somewhere in east Asia. ´Nam or something... It doesn´t have to be a bad rifle because of this, just be aware of it!

I wouldn´t trust the springs in the thing and replace them ASAP. Steel quality may be or not be questionable too...


For the 1000$ price tag.... i can´t recommend it at all.

So before drooling all over the thing, better handle one of these in Real life and have a GOOOD look at it before you drop the money. Ordering Online? No fucking way!

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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Stercutus » Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:26 pm

I own both including the full size mag for the SKS and to be perfectly honest I prefer the Enfield for nearly every application except HD. It simply is a better weapon. Power, range, reliability everything is better. Were I equipping armies, I would go with the Enfield too.
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by mantis » Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:41 pm

Bubba Enfield wrote:
darkaxel wrote:I'll bring up my point again. What is the legality concerning Enfield caliber conversions? Does the Enfield suffer from any restrictions in regards to modifying it to accept, say, 7.62x39 and larger capacity detachable AK mags? I have personally fired an Enfield that had been converted to the above configuration. The mod was good. My friend and I had trouble getting it to feed reliably from 30 rd AK mags, but it was fine with 20rd mags (I think the problem was with the feed lips?).
I haven't heard of anyone doing such a conversion, but my understanding is that the mag limit only applies to semi-auto centrefires. A bolt action should be good to use whatever magazines you can feed from. I don't know if there would be a problem with owning/using a "high capacity" magazine that was designed for a semi auto. Mantis would likely know more than me on that subject.
Converting a Lee Enfield to a different calibre is legally fine but those who butcher such historic firearms have a special place reserved for them in hell! :lol: The trouble with converting a Lee Enfield to 7.62x39 and sticking 30 rd AK mags in it is that the magazines themselves are illegal unless they are pinned to 5 rounds. It doesn't matter that you'd be using the mags in a bolt action rifle (which has no mag limit according to law). The way that the law is written, a magazine manufactured for a centerfire semi-auto or automatic rifle/shotgun is a prohibited device unless it has been manufactured or permenantly altered to hold only 5 rounds. That's why you can take those LAR-15 magazines which hold 10 (LAR is considered to be a pistol and pistol mags are allowed 10 rounds) and lawfully use them in an AR-15.

Another example is the Beretta CX4. It's magazines are indentical to the Beretta 92's magazines and you can legally use a Beretta 92 10 round mag in a semi-auto CX4. If, however, you have an intical magazine that has bee marked as being manufactured for the CX4, it is a prohibited device unless it holds only 5 rounds.
Last edited by mantis on Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by TafkanX » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:31 am

FrANkNstEin wrote:about his unfortunate personal experience with the AIA SMLE
I'm sorry to hear that. To date that is the first negative review I have heard of the rifle. All other accounts that I can recall have been overwhelmingly positive. I am hoping your experience was a fluke, shoddy craftsmanship would piss all up in my corn flakes. :(
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Jeriah » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:41 am

darkaxel wrote:I'll bring up my point again. What is the legality concerning Enfield caliber conversions? Does the Enfield suffer from any restrictions in regards to modifying it to accept, say, 7.62x39 and larger capacity detachable AK mags? I have personally fired an Enfield that had been converted to the above configuration. The mod was good. My friend and I had trouble getting it to feed reliably from 30 rd AK mags, but it was fine with 20rd mags (I think the problem was with the feed lips?).
Were the feed lips plastic?
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:13 pm

mantis wrote:Another example is the Beretta CX4. It's magazines are indentical to the Beretta 92's magazines and you can legally use a Beretta 92 10 round mag in a semi-auto CX4. If, however, you have an intical magazine that has bee marked as being manufactured for the CX4, it is a prohibited device unless it holds only 5 rounds.
That sounds like it might be a good way to go, then--along with the Lee Enfield, of course. :mrgreen:
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by mantis » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:55 pm

evil monkey wrote:
mantis wrote:Another example is the Beretta CX4. It's magazines are indentical to the Beretta 92's magazines and you can legally use a Beretta 92 10 round mag in a semi-auto CX4. If, however, you have an intical magazine that has bee marked as being manufactured for the CX4, it is a prohibited device unless it holds only 5 rounds.
That sounds like it might be a good way to go, then--along with the Lee Enfield, of course. :mrgreen:
The only problem with the CX4 is that it is restricted (same as a handgun and therefore a range gun only) unless you get one that has had a longer barrel installed (18.5"). I've also heard that the AIA 10 round mags will fit a Norinco M14. As long as they fit without any modification, that would be perfectly legal as well. I've been considering purchasing an AIA Lee Enfield rifle for a while - I've handled and fired them and they are fantastic.
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Hammer31 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:57 pm

I would have to go with the 5 round SKS. Having the ability to crank off 5 rounds quickly when in close contact is the selling point for me. All that I can say about the stripper clips is to practice your reload drills. Get good enough that it is muscle memory to drop one in before you even realize it. At longer range you may loose some accuracy but at longer ranges, your target is running into the same problem and movement on your part will become a bigger factor in their ability to land rounds on you.
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by shoggoth80 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:45 pm

Enfield, all the way given the mag restrictions on the semi-auto. The Enfield is just a good design... and it is possible to work the bolt very quickly without being off target long (people more experienced can probably do this without coming off target at all).

If caliber is a worry, or you want one in .308, get a Ishapore 2A. It looks like a No.I Mk.III* mostly, and is chambered in 7.62NATO/.308. IT can, and does shoot both types of ammo without problems. This rifle is not a reworked SMLE, but was a ground up design. They aren't super expensive (couple hundred bucks), and lots of ammo around.

Even at that, .303 is a great round as well, and quite accurate, especially over longer distances (some of the Aussie clubs do longer range shoots, 400 yards or so). Can't go wrong with any Enfield design or derivative really.

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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by DarkAxel » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:11 pm

According to mantis, my suggestion is a no-go. So I'll ask a few questions instead.

What, exactly, are the restrictions on shooting firearms in Cannuck-land? Do you have to go to a range to practice? Does your living situation allow you to take advantage of those laws? (Can you practice on your own land without breaking the law)? If you live in a place where you can't practice a lot, then the SKS would be a better option. If you can get in twice the practice with minimal expense, then go with the Enfield.

Is there a comparable rifle (bolt or semi) that has 10+ capacity detachable mags that aren't banned at a reasonable price? There may be an option out there that is better than the two you are considering.

What combat ranges do you expect? What is your AO like? Do you live in an urban area or a rural one? In an urban (or sub-urban) environment, the SKS might be a better choice. A full-on battle rifle like the Enfield has many disadvantages in urban combat. For example: During a national emergency, losing the *cough, cough* mag pin might be a bit more forgivable than killing a bystander due to over-penetration. In an urban environment, volume of fire is a bit more important than aimed, single shots (if you go with the SKS, do reload drills until it becomes an automatic reaction. Fire and Maneuver drills are also very important). If you live in a rural AO, then longer sight-lines and lower chance of bystanders would give the edge to the Enfield.

Will you actually practice shooting the rifle? The SKS was designed to be simple-stupid to operate. The Enfield takes a bit more practice to use at its effective range. Can you get in the practice to shoot the Enfield reliably and well?

All of that aside, with a name like Bubba Enfield, I'd expect you'd get the obvious.

And to Jeriah, yes, the feed lips were plastic.
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Craig67 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:43 pm

shoggoth80 wrote: If caliber is a worry, or you want one in .308, get a Ishapore 2A. It looks like a No.I Mk.III* mostly, and is chambered in 7.62NATO/.308. IT can, and does shoot both types of ammo without problems. This rifle is not a reworked SMLE, but was a ground up design. They aren't super expensive (couple hundred bucks), and lots of ammo around.
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Bubba Enfield » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:04 pm

darkaxel wrote:According to mantis, my suggestion is a no-go. So I'll ask a few questions instead.

What, exactly, are the restrictions on shooting firearms in Cannuck-land? Do you have to go to a range to practice? Does your living situation allow you to take advantage of those laws? (Can you practice on your own land without breaking the law)? If you live in a place where you can't practice a lot, then the SKS would be a better option. If you can get in twice the practice with minimal expense, then go with the Enfield.

Is there a comparable rifle (bolt or semi) that has 10+ capacity detachable mags that aren't banned at a reasonable price? There may be an option out there that is better than the two you are considering.

What combat ranges do you expect? What is your AO like? Do you live in an urban area or a rural one? In an urban (or sub-urban) environment, the SKS might be a better choice. A full-on battle rifle like the Enfield has many disadvantages in urban combat. For example: During a national emergency, losing the *cough, cough* mag pin might be a bit more forgivable than killing a bystander due to over-penetration. In an urban environment, volume of fire is a bit more important than aimed, single shots (if you go with the SKS, do reload drills until it becomes an automatic reaction. Fire and Maneuver drills are also very important). If you live in a rural AO, then longer sight-lines and lower chance of bystanders would give the edge to the Enfield.

Will you actually practice shooting the rifle? The SKS was designed to be simple-stupid to operate. The Enfield takes a bit more practice to use at its effective range. Can you get in the practice to shoot the Enfield reliably and well?

All of that aside, with a name like Bubba Enfield, I'd expect you'd get the obvious.
People can and do practice on the farm. Doesn't apply to me, I live in town. That's around 4K people, surrounded by farms and bush. No major (by American standards) cities less than a two-hour drive. And these aren't rifles I'm thinking of getting; the Enfield is mine, and the SKS is on order (an offer came along that I could not refuse; thanks for the heads-up Mantis :D ). When I negotiated the purchase of the SKS with the Chancellor of the Exchequer AKA wifey dear, she agreed on one condition. I figured she was going to the tropics again next winter, but lo and behold, her condition was that I renew my range membership and start taking everything, not just the new one, to the range at least twice a month. Twist my rubber arm.
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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Turtlewolf » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:06 am

Then you have the best of both worlds Bubba, is your Enfield a No.4 with the peep sights? I have to admit a certain liking for them, very fast to acquire targets and I used my Parker Hale with nothing but the peeps for years before I finaly had a scope installed. If you're rifle is factory stock, thats even better although it feels like they kick like a mule, better for crushing zombie skulls.

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Re: Five-round semi or ten-round bolty?

Post by Pondo_Sinatra » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:53 pm

darkaxel wrote:
Necrodamus wrote:5rd SKS vs SMLE, I would take the SMLE every time.
I would suggest extra mags if you can get them.
Also for those people worried about rate of fire. Think about reloading an SKS every 5 rounds while you watch this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m1yN-3n ... re=related
Fixed it for ya
That's pretty cool - looks like he was keeping his thumb hooked around the bolt handle while he was shooting? Never seen that before.

Given my current skill level with a bolt action rifle, I'd go with the SKS. If I had the time to train up like a good bolt-action shooter, the SMLE would get my vote.

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