Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Would you take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Yes!
98
34%
No!
108
37%
No, I would take the fine or the quarantine.
15
5%
No, I would fight or leave the country/state.
37
13%
Other / Undecided
31
11%
 
Total votes: 289

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by SweetTea » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:56 pm

andygates wrote:Evidence?
Seconded.
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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by sireflaregun » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:11 pm

andygates wrote:Evidence?
Do your own homework and you will see the evidence

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by shrapnel » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:20 pm

sireflaregun wrote:
andygates wrote:Evidence?
Do your own homework and you will see the evidence
HOLY TACTICAL FACEPALM, BATMAN!

Do you have any scientific, peer-reviewed studies indicating this issue? I suspect that we'd all be very interested in learning about them.
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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by sireflaregun » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:26 pm

shrapnel wrote:
sireflaregun wrote:
andygates wrote:Evidence?
Do your own homework and you will see the evidence
HOLY TACTICAL FACEPALM, BATMAN!

Do you have any scientific, peer-reviewed studies indicating this issue? I suspect that we'd all be very interested in learning about them.
i guess you have already taken the shot (too bad) :wink:

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by shrapnel » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:31 pm

No, dude, seriously. Please back up your statements so that we may all be warned of the danger. I would think that if I knew something like that, and had solid evidence backed up in hard, cold, peer-reviewed facts and statistics, I would tell everyone exactly where I got my information from, so that they could see that I wasn't just being paranoid. Your refusal to provide this evidence makes me wonder if, perhaps, THERE ISN'T ANY EVIDENCE. I truly am willing to read any papers on the subject, should you come up with any.
OTTB wrote:"What's that you're wearing?"
"This? Oh, just my rabies hat."
shrapnel wrote:Darling, I would never fondle your sphenoid.
Dr. Cox wrote: People aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.
JamesCannon wrote:Shrapnel, if you were a superhero, you'd be Captain Buzzkill Peener Pain.

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by sireflaregun » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:45 pm

hey! even the companies that produce the vacine have listed a few auto immune syndroms as side effects to the vacination. Had one one vacination declaration read up to me by a doctor friend. check out effects of mercury and squalin (i hope i spelled that right) on the net.

:wink:

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by shrapnel » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:54 pm

Nono. Side effects that are listed as possible but incredibly rare aren't really indicative of the vaccines themselves being dangerous (or not any more dangerous, and hopefully a lot less, than the diseases that they are intended to prevent). Like, do you take ibuprofen for anything, ever? Because it can possibly trigger toxic epidermal necrolysis. The risks of this happening are very very small, but hey, it can happen. That does not mean that ibuprofen is necessarily intensely dangerous.


As to the mercury, it has been pointed out on this thread numerous times that some forms of the H1N1 vaccine have no mercury in them at all. And that in the ones that do have mercury in them, the mercury isn't in a dangerous form, and that VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM.


So, again- please link to a peer-reviewed, data-supported publication about the dangers of the current H1N1 vaccine. Or of vaccines in general. You can ask your doctor friend what publications (s)he is basing his/her information on, if you're for some inexplicable reason coming up with nothing.
OTTB wrote:"What's that you're wearing?"
"This? Oh, just my rabies hat."
shrapnel wrote:Darling, I would never fondle your sphenoid.
Dr. Cox wrote: People aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.
JamesCannon wrote:Shrapnel, if you were a superhero, you'd be Captain Buzzkill Peener Pain.

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by sireflaregun » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:00 pm

shrapnel wrote:Nono. Side effects that are listed as possible but incredibly rare aren't really indicative of the vaccines themselves being dangerous (or not any more dangerous, and hopefully a lot less, than the diseases that they are intended to prevent). Like, do you take ibuprofen for anything, ever? Because it can possibly trigger toxic epidermal necrolysis. The risks of this happening are very very small, but hey, it can happen. That does not mean that ibuprofen is necessarily intensely dangerous.


As to the mercury, it has been pointed out on this thread numerous times that some forms of the H1N1 vaccine have no mercury in them at all. And that in the ones that do have mercury in them, the mercury isn't in a dangerous form, and that VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM.


So, again- please link to a peer-reviewed, data-supported publication about the dangers of the current H1N1 vaccine. Or of vaccines in general. You can ask your doctor friend what publications (s)he is basing his/her information on, if you're for some inexplicable reason coming up with nothing.


did you overlook the effect of (squalin) spelled wrong i know.
By the way do you work for Baxter

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by shrapnel » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:22 pm

>.<

No, I do not work for any drug companies or vaccine manufacturers, do not know anyone who works for any drug companies or vaccine manufacturers, and I do not intend on going into a field of work that will involve, in any but the most passing of ways, any drug companies or vaccine manufacturers.

As to squalene- it is an adjuvant. It is not dangerous; it allows our immune systems to more easily recognize the antigens that are contained in vaccines, as threats, and respond accordingly (by manufacturing antibodies). It is not dangerous- there are several well-conducted studies on this subject. (Here is one, that discounts the purported link between Gulf War Syndrome and squalene-containing vaccines.

Even if it were the case and it's not that squalene were somehow unknown, and untested, try this on for size:
Science-Based Medicine wrote:As of 2009, over 40 million people have been given squalene containing influenza vaccines in Europe. The incidence of serious adverse events so far reported, 1.4/100,000 doses administered, is at the baseline of the general population with no exposure to the vaccine.
So it isn't exactly killing people in droves.

Even if it were, AND IT ISN'T, here's the funny bit- the influenza vaccines that are used in the US DO NOT CONTAIN ADJUVANTS. Adjuvants, by the way, include such things as, I dunno, squalene. So you're safe on that front, unless you're in Europe, in which case you're still safe because squalene isn't dangerous.


I'm sure that that will make you feel better. Here are my citations, gathered together in a nice article from which I gained much of my information. I would recommend that you read it- it's clear and concise, and explains things in terms that even laypersons can understand. And it's cited.
OTTB wrote:"What's that you're wearing?"
"This? Oh, just my rabies hat."
shrapnel wrote:Darling, I would never fondle your sphenoid.
Dr. Cox wrote: People aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.
JamesCannon wrote:Shrapnel, if you were a superhero, you'd be Captain Buzzkill Peener Pain.

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by SweetTea » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:32 pm

Shrapnel beat me to it, but I worked hard on this so I'm posting it anyway, dammit.
sireflaregun wrote: did you overlook the effect of (squalin) spelled wrong i know.
First of all, it's spelled squalene. Just so we're clear (not meant to be snarky).

Squalene is a compound that occurs naturally in our bodies during cholesterol synthesis. Right now your liver, adrenal glands, and ovaries/testes (whichever the case may be) have squalene in them because they have to make cholesterol. It's true that squalene can be toxic, but as they say, "the dose makes the poison." Let's look at how toxic squalene is:

To measure how toxic something is, we use something called the LD50, which is how much it would take to kill half of the people you give it to. LD50 is given in units of mass of toxin per mass of victim. For example, the LD50 of strychnine is about 6 mg/kg when you average together men and women (reference 1). So let's take an average adult human and see how much it would take to have even odds of killing him/her. We'll assume our victim weighs 80 kilograms, or about 176 pounds. So we do the math. 6 mg/kg x 80kg = 480 milligrams, about the size of a small pill. Now we can see why strychnine is such a useful poison.

But what about squalene? The LD50 for injected squalene is 1800 mg/kg (references 2, 3, and 4). So how much do we need to kill half of the people we give it to? Let's take our 80 kg person again and run the numbers. 1800 mg/kg x 80 kg = 144000 mg. An easier way to express this is 144 grams, which is a hair shy of a third of a pound. Even if the vaccine was pure squalene (it isn't even close, there is only a small amount in the ones that even have it at all), it would have to be administered with a syringe the size of a half a soda can to do you any harm.

References:

1) http://www.the-piedpiper.co.uk/th15%28f%29.htm
2) http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showth ... p?t=126235
3) http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/14/9/3286/pdf
4) http://www.lookchem.com/trans-SQUALENE/
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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by sireflaregun » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:45 pm

shrapnel wrote:>.<

No, I do not work for any drug companies or vaccine manufacturers, do not know anyone who works for any drug companies or vaccine manufacturers, and I do not intend on going into a field of work that will involve, in any but the most passing of ways, any drug companies or vaccine manufacturers.

As to squalene- it is an adjuvant. It is not dangerous; it allows our immune systems to more easily recognize the antigens that are contained in vaccines, as threats, and respond accordingly (by manufacturing antibodies). It is not dangerous- there are several well-conducted studies on this subject. (Here is one, that discounts the purported link between Gulf War Syndrome and squalene-containing vaccines.

Even if it were the case and it's not that squalene were somehow unknown, and untested, try this on for size:
Science-Based Medicine wrote:As of 2009, over 40 million people have been given squalene containing influenza vaccines in Europe. The incidence of serious adverse events so far reported, 1.4/100,000 doses administered, is at the baseline of the general population with no exposure to the vaccine.
So it isn't exactly killing people in droves.

Even if it were, AND IT ISN'T, here's the funny bit- the influenza vaccines that are used in the US DO NOT CONTAIN ADJUVANTS. Adjuvants, by the way, include such things as, I dunno, squalene. So you're safe on that front, unless you're in Europe, in which case you're still safe because squalene isn't dangerous.


I'm sure that that will make you feel better. Here are my citations, gathered together in a nice article from which I gained much of my information. I would recommend that you read it- it's clear and concise, and explains things in terms that even laypersons can understand. And it's cited.

well i suppose the old swin flu shot back in the seventies was´nt toxic after all.

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by shrapnel » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:46 pm

But this isn't the old H1N1 vaccine.
OTTB wrote:"What's that you're wearing?"
"This? Oh, just my rabies hat."
shrapnel wrote:Darling, I would never fondle your sphenoid.
Dr. Cox wrote: People aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.
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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by sireflaregun » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:48 pm

shrapnel wrote:But this isn't the old H1N1 vaccine.
did you take the H1N1 vacination

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by shrapnel » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:51 pm

I haven't had access to it yet. When I do, hell yes I'll be taking it- I go to a very large university, and it's a fucking petri dish there.
OTTB wrote:"What's that you're wearing?"
"This? Oh, just my rabies hat."
shrapnel wrote:Darling, I would never fondle your sphenoid.
Dr. Cox wrote: People aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.
JamesCannon wrote:Shrapnel, if you were a superhero, you'd be Captain Buzzkill Peener Pain.

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by TheGunslinger » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:46 pm

That's some good work there, Shrapnel (and Sweet Tea, too).

Regardless if whatsis face takes the advice or not, it's good info to have out there.

Mind you, I think they're just trolling now, so thanks for being patient enough to gather the info together.
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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by sireflaregun » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:28 pm

shrapnel wrote:I haven't had access to it yet. When I do, hell yes I'll be taking it- I go to a very large university, and it's a fucking petri dish there.
good for you man, and dónt get me wrong i do respect your oppinion and the work you put out to convince yourself that your doing the right thing.. but tell me what is the point of getting a vac for H1N1, when the symptoms are no more severe than the commen cold.

And going to a big ass university is not a bad thing for your immune system, it will strengthen it, as long as you remember to put latex on your bishops hat when its pray time.

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by shrapnel » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:57 pm

Being female, I don't own a bishop's hat to put latex on, but I heartily agree with the sentiment. :lol:

Here's the thing. If I get the flu shot, I'm maybe going to feel a little sick for a few days, not be contagious, and not be in much danger of developing pneumonia or other complications.

If I come down with H1N1, I might just feel a little sick for a few days. What's more likely is that I'll feel horrible for a week or more. The possibility also exists that I will get pneumonia or at least some nasty secondary infection. I'll have to miss school for a week or so so that I can minimize transmitting the virus to other people, some of whom probably have weakened immune systems, and some of whom I know have young children who should be kept away from influenza. I'd be miserable for that week (I've had full-blown influenza once, and it was awful. And that was without any opportunistic infections setting in. It can take months to fully recover from a nasty case of the flu, and I simply don't have the time to deal with that right now.

H1N1 is more deadly for otherwise healthy young people, which is different than most 'normal' strains of the flu. I'm a more or less otherwise healthy young person- it would be silly of me to take a far greater risk of getting sick at a school with over 40,000 students in it, than the very very very slim chance that I'll experience major complications from a vaccine.

Basically, I have every reason to take the vaccine (the exception being if there's a major shortage- health care workers, pregnant women, children, etc. should get first dibs). If the virus mutates into a deadlier form, there's at least a chance that I'll have at least partial immunity to it from the vaccine. If not, oh well- I won't have gotten the flu and been miserable.

Going to a giant university isn't necessarily bad for me, as long as I'm able to fight off any illnesses that come my way. I can do that with the majority of them, and I'd probably be able to do it with H1N1, but why take the risk? I've been vaccinated against meningitis, various forms of hepatitis, tetanus, and, uh, everything else I've been vaccinated against. :mrgreen: It's a responsible action on my part, as it dramatically lessens my chances of inadvertently causing someone else illness, but it's also a smart move in terms of self-interest. I don't want to catch meningitis and end up brain damaged or dead, so I took a step to protect myself from at least one cause of it. The same thing goes for all the other vaccines I've gotten.



Have you read the articles that Sweet Tea and myself linked to? I really do think you should.
OTTB wrote:"What's that you're wearing?"
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shrapnel wrote:Darling, I would never fondle your sphenoid.
Dr. Cox wrote: People aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.
JamesCannon wrote:Shrapnel, if you were a superhero, you'd be Captain Buzzkill Peener Pain.

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by SweetTea » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:14 pm

sireflaregun wrote:but tell me what is the point of getting a vac for H1N1, when the symptoms are no more severe than the commen cold.
I'm not shrapnel, but I'm a healthy young person going to a large-ish university full of people that don't wash their hands after they piss. I haven't gotten vaccinated for H1N1 because it's not available to me yet, but I'm getting it as soon as I can.

First of all, I don't think even the regular seasonal flu is "no more severe than the common cold." I've never heard of anybody laid up in bed for a week with cold sweats, trembling, and nausea from the common cold. But let's say that it's equivalent to the common cold just for the sake of argument. If I got H1N1, I could shrug it off pretty well. I might even be able to keep attending classes and working if I didn't care about infecting other people.

But that very same flu could straight up kill somebody else. I'm a medical student, so I'm rounding in hospitals and often dealing with very sick people. I talked with a patient today that was anemic, elderly, emaciated, arthritic, and probably had metastatic colon cancer. Believe it or not, she was among the healthier patients I see. I'm not getting the vaccine so much for me as I am for them. Many of these people are hanging on to life by a thread, and H1N1 (and, to a lesser extent, regular seasonal flu) could very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back for them.

But you don't work in a hospital, so you don't need it, right? Just a second there. If you're out in society, you deal with immunosuppressed and immunocompromised people all the time. If you don't get vaccinated, you could potentially spread swine flu to every senior citizen, AIDS patient, child, pregnant woman, cancer patient, baby, organ transplant recipient, insomniac type A personalities, and people that are taking medications for lupus, chron's disease, rheumatoid arthritis, and other autoimmune diseases.

Even if you don't directly contact these people, how do you know that someone you contact won't contact them? This is why vaccination is so awesome, because it stops this terrible chain reaction of contagion.
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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by sireflaregun » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:25 pm

oh your a girl/woman
Still why is it then that German govenment officials are being offered an alternative version of the vaccine.

Several New York Nurses are protesting "forced vaccination or your fired".

the majority of Police forces and other government service personale in europe are saying NO to vaccination and i think in the states too.

P.s. i did read your links it seem that the author and publisher seem to be on a crusade in regards to their other papirs.

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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by ZombieGranny » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:32 pm

I can see why you might want to take it then.
My case is hugely different.

I'm over 50, those in my age group aren't in much danger from H1N1 as we apparently have built up some immunity.
I am out in public only 2 days a week, if feeling ill I stay home. Therefore little interaction with others. If I were still teaching my reaction about the shot would be different.
There will not be enough for everyone to be vaccinated, therefore it is logical that I leave my dose of vaccine for those who have a greater need for it.
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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by shrapnel » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:55 pm

ZombieGranny, that's a perfectly reasonable stance to take. I'm not saying that we need to barge into people's homes and forcibly inject them with vaccines if they're worried about them. What I am saying is that after a certain point, the burden falls to us as individuals to take a good look at the data that we have available, and to really make an effort to see what the scientific literature says on the subject of whatever is worrying us about the vaccines. I know that journal articles can be incredibly hard to read as a layperson, but I can generally at least get the gist of what's being said, and understand more or less where their numbers came from, and why said numbers are doing whatever it is that they're doing.

When I heard someone saying that the vaccine wasn't safe, I filed the information away in my head, and got to a computer and looked it up. As far as I can tell, there is ample evidence that the vaccines are safe, and that it's much better for me to get one. If you're willing to risk dying, and possibly infecting your loved ones (I'm almost positive that you're most contagious from influenza before you show symptoms), then that's your prerogative, and all I ask is that you do your utmost not to spread it to others.


As to the health care workers... I'm sorry, but when you work among a population that is pretty much solely comprised of immuno-compromised people, you need to be not potentially carrying a disease that has a good chance of killing them. If you choose not to be vaccinated, that's fine, but you shouldn't be breathing on people who lack the ability to put up much of a fight against the disease. Last weekend I had to cancel a babysitting job the day before I was supposed to sit for the kid, because my roommate had strep throat and the kid is like two. I didn't have strep, but I didn't know that I didn't, and so I passed on some money that I really could have used in the interest of not exposing a small child to a nasty illness. Likewise, if you truly feel that you cannot be vaccinated against an illness that is easily deadly among at-risk populations, you should not be around those populations.


I appreciate your taking the time to read the articles- along those lines, I will certainly read any that you post, as well.
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shrapnel wrote:Darling, I would never fondle your sphenoid.
Dr. Cox wrote: People aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings.
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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by thesupremeking » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:15 am

crypto wrote:
thesupremeking wrote:
OH THE TERROR! THE HORROR OF THE SWINE FLU.....get real :roll:
Clearly you've got this whole epidemic thing figured out.

I'm interested what makes your opinion more informed than the epidemiological medical community, who is genuinely terrified about this pandemic, in a way that they werent for bird flu or SARS or anything we've had in recent memory.

Why are you so convinced that nothing is going to happen other than saying that regular flu has killed more people so far? Why should I listen to you, rather than professionals who study public health and epidemiology for a living?
lol kids these days.

you say "Why are you so convinced that nothing is going to happen other than saying that regular flu has killed more people so far?"
my answer, because that is the evidence thus far, and winter or "flu season" has already happened in the southern hemisphere.

you say that the medical community is "genuinely terrified about this pandemic"
I say, says who? CNN? lol, the "medical community" is not terrified, the doctors and professionals on CNN are, because its sensationalism.

You say " Why should I listen to you, rather than professionals who study public health and epidemiology for a living?"
I say, I said that you SHOULD get the vaccine if you desire, but that most of it is hype, and the facts show it is not as deadly as regular flu, which CLEARLY is 100% non negotiable truth.

and P.S. what makes you certain that I'm not a BioMed scientist? maybe I do know what I'm talking about :wink:
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Stab74
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Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:54 am
Location: Lexington, KY

Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by Stab74 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:50 am

You know I don't post a lot but I've been lurking since 07 and I've noticed every now and then someone like sireflaregun pops up thinking this site is for conspiracy nuts, posts some crazy stuff, is shot down with lots of EVIDENCE and promptly disappears to the nether regions of abovetopsecret.com.

BTW I'm in the army and have no choice but to get the vacination next week. I tried telling the medics that I've seen I Am Legend and know how this will all go down but, uh, he just doesnt get it man!
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SweetTea
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Favorite Zombie Movies: I kick it old school: NOtLD
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Re: Would you voluntarily take the H1N1 Vaccine?

Post by SweetTea » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:50 am

sireflaregun wrote:oh your a girl/woman
Still why is it then that German govenment officials are being offered an alternative version of the vaccine.

Several New York Nurses are protesting "forced vaccination or your fired".

the majority of Police forces and other government service personale in europe are saying NO to vaccination and i think in the states too.

P.s. i did read your links it seem that the author and publisher seem to be on a crusade in regards to their other papirs.
Sources?
thesupremeking wrote:lol kids these days.

you say "Why are you so convinced that nothing is going to happen other than saying that regular flu has killed more people so far?"
my answer, because that is the evidence thus far, and winter or "flu season" has already happened in the southern hemisphere.
Is it possible that the viral climate out there has changed in 6 months? Given how quickly viruses proliferate and mutate, I'ld say so. Is it possible that the viral climate in Australia and South Africa is different from the US? I would think it's not only possible, but probable.

[/quote]you say that the medical community is "genuinely terrified about this pandemic"
I say, says who? CNN? lol, the "medical community" is not terrified, the doctors and professionals on CNN are, because its sensationalism.[/quote]
The CDC says that hospitalizations for flu are as high now as they usually are during the peak of regular flu season, indicating that when we get to this year's flu season we'll be swamped. They also say that hospitalizations and deaths are on the rise. Source: http://www.cdc.gov/H1N1FLU/
Not direct enough? I read a lot of medical blogs from ER doctors and nurses, and they're either a) swamped with flu cases or b) it hasn't hit their community yet but they're bracing for impact. Source: http://allbleedingstops.blogspot.com/20 ... -club.html
You say " Why should I listen to you, rather than professionals who study public health and epidemiology for a living?"
I say, I said that you SHOULD get the vaccine if you desire, but that most of it is hype, and the facts show it is not as deadly as regular flu, which CLEARLY is 100% non negotiable truth.
That's clearly not true at all. For one, H1N1 is more likely to lead to acute respiratory distress syndrome, which often requires intubation and ventilation. It is also very dangerous for the young and pregnant women. Sources: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/displa ... ehresmann/ http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/10/num ... 1-flu.html
amd2800barton wrote:
LakotaJones wrote:Holy shit. I always thought Sweet Tea was a girl...
actually so did I. Didn't want to be the first one to say anything :P
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