Self Defense and Rendering First Aid :Poll Addded:

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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WWYD?

Fuck the guy, broke into my house, he deserves it.
8
13%
Sucks for you buddy, but I'm not putting me or my family at risk to help.
23
37%
Sorry man, don't have that sort of training
6
10%
Damnit, why do I have to be a nice guy and I know I'm gonna get sued over this.... (Help Him)
25
40%
 
Total votes: 62

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Self Defense and Rendering First Aid :Poll Addded:

Post by Sckitzo » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:09 am

Did a google and site search, didn't turn up anything which might just mean I suck at searches. If so, sorry about that mods feel freek to L&B.

Wasn’t sure exactly where to stick this, was thinking First Aid or Firearms but honestly, this is just a WWYD scenario.

Anyway, just got done with my 8hr class for my AZ CCW and that got me thinking...

Here is the scenario, it might not be exact for you, but you get the point...

Its 3 am, you hear the sliding glass door in the rear of your house shatter, you grab your pistol off the nightstand and check it out, while the SO calls 911.

You shine your flashlight into the living room where you see a person, rummaging through your DVD collection.

You tell them to stop, get out, get on the ground, ect.

Instead of complying they produce what appears to be a handgun from their waist and began to draw down on you.

You fire two rounds, one hits center of mass, one hits him in the shoulder causing him to drop the gun and fall down. You remove the pistol from his access and your SO runs into the room still online with the dispatcher to tell you the police will be there in 15 minutes, you tell them to make sure a medical unit is going to be coming which the 911 dispatcher assures is.
You have a choice, the guy may or may not be bleeding out or have life threatening injuries. He is however no longer a risk having had his weapons removed and rendered incapacitated; you do a quick frisk just to make sure.
This of course assumes your keeping your wits with you long enough to help, which may or may not happen, but for the sake of this exercise lets assume you do.
Do you administer basic first aid? Do you try your best to keep the guy from bleeding out, or how do you proceed?
I’m asking for more how you would handle this as opposed to the legal answer. To get the real, legal answer you of course should talk to a lawyer but I’m just interested to hear people’s takes and opinions on this. If you want to quote a court case or past experience/credible story please do so.
Of course this would be different if you just have the most basic training (such as myself) or if your an EMT, and change even more so if you’re a RN or MD.
Keep the answers legal and within ZS’s rules, more a mental exercise and a WWYD scenario.
Until I hear otherwise, I think I am at least going to try and keep him alive for the 15 minutes till Medical shows up. I’m going to do my best to stop the bleeding, administer CPR if I have to. I wouldn’t give an IV as I could see that causing so many more legal issues it wouldn’t be worth the risk.
Besides this being the “right” thing to do in my opinion, I’m still up in the air on how the court is gonna see it. On one hand they might pull the “well you weren’t THAT scared if you managed to help the guy” or it might go “He was no longer a threat, was I just going to watch him bleed?”
Last edited by Sckitzo on Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by shrapnel » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:44 am

I don't have any specific training, other than a Red Cross First Aid certification that is several years out of date, but of course I'd try to help the person, provided that they are no longer a threat to me. I'd make sure I had gloves and preferably some sort of eye protection, because who wants to get hepatitis or HIV or, uh, Ebola, but for fuck's sake- I'm not going to just leave somebody to die on my floor if I can help it.

I'd try and grab a clean towel and hold pressure on the wound, since I don't think we have enough gauze in the house to deal with a serious amount of bleeding. Actually, I'd try to pack it with gauze first, then go for the towel. All I really know to do is hold pressure and do CPR- if the guy had a sucking chest wound I might try to rig up some sort of one-way valve thing with tape and Saran Wrap, and at the very least I'd seal it off, but that's about the limit of my knowledge. I'd ask the dispatcher if s/he had any other instructions for first aid, and I'd follow those as well. Since a gunshot wound is really beyond the scope of my knowledge, I'd do the best I could, and at least hold the person's hand if they were dying.

I have a suspicion that very few people would fault anyone for trying to help, as long as the attempted assistance fell within the bounds of the person's knowledge. Like, I'd look very suspiciously at, say, me, if I tried to crack open someone's chest and perform cardiac massage, but trying to stop bleeding with a towel or something would be fine.

Sckitzo wrote:On one hand they might pull the “well you weren’t THAT scared if you managed to help the guy"
Also, Florida has castle doctrine, so I wouldn't have to argue that I was terrified for my life and still managed to try to help the person.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by Mangangali » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:58 am

If I just shot someone because they were raising a weapon to shoot me, reinforced by the fact that I removed access to the pistol from him. I wouldn't do a thing. His chances for surviving are between him and the EMT's. As for others who would help, that's their prerogative but I'm certain that if they shot you first, they wouldn't do the same for you. They'd have just blown out and left you to bleed out.

My empathy/sympathy reaction might be screwed up but that's just me. I can get over the fact that my security was breached and dude was trying to steal from me. But once a weapon was in play a different mindset takes over.

It breaks down to, scumbag picked the wrong house to burgle.

I have friends and colleagues that would and have gone by a different adage. Wait 15 minutes and then call 911.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by Istvan56 » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:06 am

I'm a first aid instructor and a cop so yes, I'm going to try to keep my wounded prisoner alive. Not the least of my reasons is that it will look better in court where it is sure to end up. But it is up to you. This guy is in your home and he just tried to kill you. The Good Samaritan laws generally don't require you to give first aid. Alaska is the only exception in the US and I don't believe it requires you to do so under these circumstances.

BTW, I'd secure the wounded prisoner first and then check on my family before offering first aid to him. If he fired rounds they went somewhere in my house, everyone gets checked first before him. But then I do try first aid.

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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by bonanacrom » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:51 am

Me, I'm afraid I'm alone most of the time so. It might take me a little longer to find the phone to call. Help ? NO. Even if I was inclined that way I've read to many things in the news about people getting sued because the bad guy lived to make trouble from jail. I was told by I local cop to just make sure the bad guy was inside the house and not outside when the cops showed up. Even if it means stopping them from crawling out. Boot to the head. On the other hand I don't see your scenario going as you think in my case. I would have panicked and emptied my gun into the guy before he hit the ground if he pulled a gun on me. Hell it's possible I could reloaded and empty that one as well before he hit the ground.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by Sckitzo » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:16 am

Interesting mix of answers, well actually I have a 12g that sits next to the bed but that really wouldn't leave much room to figure out what your going to do besides steam clean your floors the next morning.

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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by bonanacrom » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:25 am

A Little elbow grease never hurt anyone.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by Rhetor » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:04 am

Ambulances around here have loud sirens.

Wouldn't it be great for the paramedics to be able to testify that when they walked in you were administering 1st aid (however ineffectively) and saying things like "don't die"?

Beats field dressing him, anyway.

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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by Chantrea » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:25 am

I don't know what I would do in that situation.

Totally rationally, I'd like to say that I would at least do basic first aid measures. I have had to do them on people who were combative/rude/threatnening to me minutes previously, but that was a JOB--which for me personally makes it a lot easier to put the professional face on.

However, someone who invaded my home and tried to kill me, I can't say for sure of course but I'm going to guess that it's going to be a lot harder to slip into professional mode. If I was alone, I could see myself running over to the neighbors (in which case, I'm not going to be there to administer first aid). If it was just me and the kids we'd definitely go over to the neighbors' (or at least I would have to spend some time taking them over there and coming back). If the whole family was there, then maybe first aid would be more likely to happen. Or not, it might be up to hubby because the kids are likely going to want ME if they just saw someone get shot in their own house or got woken up to that, and the needs/desires of my family come first, as Istvan said.

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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by yale » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:58 am

I'm a Nationaly Registered EMT-Basic. That said, If I shoot someone in my home I'm not going to lower my guard to provide medical care. That person laying on my floor wounded may have enough strength left to wait until I'm close and attack to take my weapon. I'm not going to cuff or otherwise restrain him. If he tries to crawl out the door I'll follow at a safe distance as far as the porch but I'm not going to put a boot on his head or otherwise try to keep him in my house. My medical gear is stored in a closet and I'm not going to let someone who just drew down on me out of my sight just to go get my bag. Based on the senerio presented I'd say the SOB has 15 minutes to get out of my home and seek medical attention or lay there on the floor and perform self aid using his shirt or socks. Maybe he should do like we did in the Army and carry a IFAK if he's going to go around breaking into peoples homes with a gun. Then he can pack his wounds with quickclot and gauze while we wait for the cavalry to arrive.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by Abacus » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:40 am

I wouldn't.

I have no obligation to render aid,
I am probably not equipped to render aid (no gloves or vapour barrier)
I don't know how long it will be before aid arrives, and if I start, I am now obliged to continue.
Gunshot wounds are beyond the scope of my ability.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by meatshieldChris » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:45 am

I'm not a CCWer or anything, but I'll relate what I saw. I witnessed a suicide-by cop. The guy came at the police, drew a fake pistol, and wouldn't back down. They tasered him, to no effect (big jacket), then shot him. Ballsey reponse, staring down a pistol and trying a taser first. Big brass ones.

Anyway once he was down, they moved the assumed weapon out of the way, then controlled the scene till backup arrived. They didn't touch him, and at least one of them was watching him the whole time. Kept everyone inside their houses and kept the attacker under control. Then the backup officers started first aid and further locked the place down when they showed up.

The fact that when the ambulance showed up a little after the swarm of backup, and sat and waited for 20 minutes before loading the guy up, then sitting there parked with the guy loaded for another 20 minutes, when the hospital was one block away was a pretty big clue to his condition when they arrived.

Seems like from what I witnessed, the obligation post-shooting was controlling the scene and maintaining situational awareness, making sure there was no more danger to anyone rather than than administering first aid to an attacker and reducing your situational awareness in doing that.

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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by velojym » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:52 am

I would, provided I was convinced that the intruder was no longer a threat. My use of a firearm will have been
meant to stop the intruder, and if he's still alive, I'll do what I can for him after checking to ensure my family is safe.

However, Mrs. V will be standing by with the 12ga, and if the intruder is conscious, we'll be sure he sees it.

When trial time comes around, I wanna keep the moral high ground as much as possible. Using a nasty-evil-gun
doesn't sit well with some of the more hoplophobic jurists.

If there is a potential threat, or the guy's still trying to fight, he'll just have to wait for the medics, if we don't
have to take... additional measures to remove the threat.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by mpi » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:59 am

I'm in a similar position to istvan, although no longer employed in that capacity. i would secure the actor and then render aid. my wife would be covering him with a shotgun or her Smith model 19 and would blast him all over me if he appeared as if he was going to attempt a fart!
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Post by NightHiker » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:00 am

:words:
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Post by NightHiker » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:05 am

:words:
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by Vicarious_Lee » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:39 am

1. My primary HD weapon is a 12 gauge, so this will probably be a non-issue with me. I've seen a lot (maybe over 100) people with gunshot wounds from various pistols (usually 9MM ball). I have not yet encountered ANYONE that has lived after administration of buckshot.

2. If a family member or someone else can cover the bad guy with a weapon, I render aid once the situation is secure. Regardless of how I feel about some scumbag that attempted a violent home invasion on me and my family, I'm not gonna risk my psyche watching him bleed bleed to death on my floor while I did nothing.

That's just me. I don't judge anyone for doing different.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by ZombieGranny » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:21 pm

Before Off Topic contributors and their posts are "burned to the ground" as stated by 'The Powers That Be', I have decided to take action and remove the 6,747 unwelcome posts contributed by me in the past 7 years.

My apologies to forum members for any inconvenience this may cause. This is the 4th time it's happened and I'm too old and tired to fight it again.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by PaleHorse » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:35 pm

If I have secured his weapon and the wife has called 911. I would then have her cover the intruder. I'd insure the safety of my family first. Clear the rest of the house. He may have friends going after the silverware. Check the outside for any accomplices without exposing myself if possible. If it were safe to do so, I would secure him with cuffs. I think first aid would be the last thing on my mind. Secure the perimeter and wait for the cavalry.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by Gatorfarmer » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:52 pm

No. Why? Bad tactics. I'm not touching someone that is down. I'll kick their weapon away if they dropped it, but I'm not dropping down to frisk them. 1. I don't want their bodily fluids on me, who knows what they have and 2. they might not have been alone and 3. they might be playing possum. Stay at the ready and scan the area. Reload if you have time. If the other guy dies, well then he dies. I accepted the consequences of using lethal force, and that that level of force might be lethal/deadly, when I shot.

Even LEOs in certain jurisdictions have been told not to administer first aid, but to let the EMTs do it, for fear of law suits. If you're kneeling over the guy applying pressure - aside from not being ready when his buddy shows up to kill you - it's just as easy for the wounded guy to tell responders that you were torturing, poking at his wound and laughing about it, etc. as to say that you tried to help him. And if it is a gray area shooting for some reason, the Prosecutor is just going to say "So, you immediately applied first aid, obviously you didn't see this man as a threat and immediately regretted your own actions..." Morale of the story - anything can be twisted to appear as most anything, so maintain a distance between yourself and someone down, be prepared for the fight not being over just because someone went down, and be prepared for someone to have friends.

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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by Murph » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:02 pm

I'd go to the range and work on my shot placement.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by PaleHorse » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:03 pm

Murph wrote:I'd go to the range and work on my shot placement.
:shock: :lol:
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by ozwyn » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:37 pm

Murph wrote:I'd go to the range and work on my shot placement.
Big +1

As per the immediate situation, I am not sure what I would do. Never having shot someone in self-defense before, I might find msyelf rendering aid or watching them bleed out. I can't be one bit sure because those kind of events are usually not the kind you can really know what you're going to do until you're there. I mean, there's a good chance is the suspect is still holding a weapon, in all the adrenalin haze my mind may percieve the person as a continued threat and shoot him/her a couple more times.

You can't be sure what you'll do. That's a traumatic event with a lot of adrenalin and a bit of shock thrown in.

I'd like to think the shot placement and ammo selection makes it a moot point in under one minute anyway, so by the time I have called the cops, its over.
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Re: Self Defense and Rendering First Aid

Post by Baba Brad » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:54 pm

Nope. Wouldn't render first aid.

Having hurt people during class, (CQC) yes I've done what I could and was qualified to do. It was a training environment and they weren't listening. Or it was an accident (they do happen). Having intentionally put the hurt on a few during self defense situations, I did NOT render aid afterwards. They tried to hurt/kill me, they got what they deserved. I made sure I was safe and anyone around me was safe. I made sure they had no buddies ready to jump on me for hurting their pal.

Same if the OP was to happen to me. No aid. Secure the area, make sure the family is safe and make sure the bad guy has no back-up waiting to jump in.
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