BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:04 am

First...

official Discovery Channel site;
The Colony
official Zombie Squad discussion of the show as it airs can be found here;
Board index » Continuing Education » Zombie Training Films » The Colony on Discovery

OK... now on to the topic...
What would you do if, after executing your bug-out plan, you met up with the cast of The Colony at the start of the show?

Ground rules;
*) If you have a bug-out vehicle you've had to ditch it already
*) Be fair and refer to your bug-out plan as it exist today. Not idealized for this particular situation.
*) Be realistic... not all of our plans are, so take a minute to realize what's wrong with your assumptions. If you say you've carrying twelve rifles, a solar array and food for a month someone is going to call bull$hit
*) If you're an overweight couch potato like I am who been meaning to get in shape but hasn't, then realize that an eight mile walk in the sun on a hot day down a concrete river is going to kick your ass.
*) lets help each other out, but if you're going to call someone on an idea, lets discuss civilly. NO FLAMES!!!
*) You can assume that this is SHTF and TEOTWAWKI. You haven't seen a cop in days and don't expect to any time soon.
*) Please limit BOB descriptions. Provide a link to a thread if you have one, but there's no need to go into gory details and packing lists here. There's a whole section for that. No more than a paragraph of intro here if possible.
*) The intent here is to help you and others review their BOBs and Bug-out plans against a fairly detailed backdrop. The show provides a very detailed hypothetical compared to some of the one sentence scenarios that we consider. Let's use it (even if the show itself might be iffy.)


STARTING SCENE:

You come across the cast including Allison, John, George, Michael, Morgan and John (Vladimir might be there... I'd have to go back and check, Amy, Leilani & Joey show up later) walking down the street shortly before they find the department store. Like them you've been up thirty hours and haven't really had time to eat or drink. You spent the time prepping your vehicle and trying to drive out of town only to have to ditch it a few blocks back because of a stupid unforeseen mechanical problem. You're hot, hungry and thirsty when you see them about a block down.


FIRST THOUGHTS:
?> Do you avoid the group? Join the group? Split off members?
?> Do you share with the group? Do you trade with the group?
?> How is your BOB serving you and how can it serve the group?
?> How much can you share/trust with the group?
?> You (your family) are the only prepared members people in sight? How does that affect your decisions?
Armageddon was yesterday ..... today we have a serious problem!!!
-stieg larsson

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:27 am

OK. My family (me 39, 7mo pregnant wife 31, son 3, daughter 2, 2 dogs) just ditched our minivan and pickup in the back of a parking lot. What we couldn't carry we cached under a tarp on top of a looted retail store. We're traveling with 2 BOB backpacks and a STOMP med kit. Daughter is on my back in a carrier and my son is walking. The packs are on a double stroller. We have a week's worth of MREs, 300oz of water, 2 M4s, 2 9mm, 2 45s, M1A, 22 pistol, 22 rifle. (Before you call bull$hit, its the stroller that allows some of the extra arms, MREs and the STOMP. If we lost the stroller, we would cache at least the STOMP, a BOB, the baby carrier and the M1A, then repack the remaining BOB ditching other things for food and water). We're traveling low-profile but heavily armed. Dogs are leashed.

General thoughts;
Dogs don't have their own packs. I've been meaning too but haven't got the time so all we have for them is a gallon ziploc or two of food for them. Comfort items like sleeping bags and real tents got left with the vehicles. I've been meaning to add some mountain house dehydrated foods to supplement the MREs but I was waiting on a sale that never happened. Same thing for a good defensive shotgun. I have a bird gun but left it with the cache. I have a map of the area but I had to leave the detailed one with the cars. It was a heavy atlas style.

First thought on seeing the colony cast;
Get my family down and out of sight. I have to get my daughter off my back and be ready to fight if need be. First sight doesn't send me shooting off or running. They're on foot and they don't have guns. They look like refugees.

I don't see anything that can help my group except numbers. Unfortunately with a pregnant wife and kids, numbers might help me more than they hurt me. I can't carry all the stuff I have and have trouble providing security by myself evidenced by the fact that I had to get my 2 year old off my back at the first sign of danger.

I would formulate plan to leave my family with my wife providing security and casually approach the group keeping arms low-profile. Discuss the situation and offer to provide their group some security in exchange for helping me out. The M4 SBR and chest rig should provide me a bona-fide. I make it plain that I'm not offering to share everything I have, but that I will help them keep going.

If they refuse the deal and insist on sharing everything, I move on keeping an eye on my back, but I think they'll take the deal.

If they take the deal should I go back to the cache or wait until we find a secure location?

I think I'd wait and not tell them anything about the cache. If this doesn't work out or something goes wrong the cache is my family's backup plan.
Armageddon was yesterday ..... today we have a serious problem!!!
-stieg larsson

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by thelung187 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:51 am

I'll be honest, I enjoy the premise of this show, as I think they have some good tips (the water filtration system especially I thought was done excellently). However, there is a single, glaring, unfathomable fact of this show that makes it less than credible: NONE OF THEM ARE ARMED. A quick google search reveals that as of 2006, 21.6% of Americans own some type of firearm. That's just a bit more than one of every five persons, and we're seeing 10 folks here that are unarmed? In LA? In the words of Jerry Seinfeld, "Who are these people?" :roll:

Also, I'm an overweight couch potato, and I walked at least eight miles a day for with a loaded pack for 10 days in Europe (read: not always paved/level ground), and while it was challenging, I didn't feel like it absolutely bent me over the coals.

As to your questions, I am basing this assumption that there has been appropriate lead-time leading up to the events, and that my wife is with me (versus a "One Second After" situation where an EMP detonates and we are all stranded at home/in non-operational vehicle/away from home/etc.). We are both <30 yrs. old, not in the best of shape but can carry our own weight, and each have a BOB. I'm also basing this on the assumption that the standard BOB (as I understand it) is meant to last myself and my wife (from hereon out known as "we" or "our"), three days on foot, food/water. Going on that assumption:

1. Do you avoid the group? Join the group? Split off members?
Most likely we are on foot solo, and if they've yet to see us, I think I would try and shadow them a bit to get the feel of how their group operated, if they were openly hostile (I mean, at a block away, I can't necessarily dictate as to whether they are friendly or Raider-ish).

2. Do you share with the group? Do you trade with the group?
Under the assumption that the group is friendly and accepting, I would share *some* with the group in regard to supplies (though not weaponry/ammo, as I only have my AR/.45/3.5" folders with us, along with limited ammo). This means cleaning/bandaging any incurred wounds that are not already tended to, doling out two of four flashlights (2 per BOB), assisting with securing of perimeter, etc., but not to the point that we blow all of our medical supplies or batteries either.

3. How is your BOB serving you and how can it serve the group?
My concern with my BOB currently is adequate food. As it stands now, our food supply is set to last us 72-96 hours maxs until we would reach our BOL. Since the BOL is now currently not in the scenario, our BOBs are serving us well only for a finite amount of time. Given that, I believe that medical supplies and other BOB essentials (fire-starting equipment, flashlights, Talkabout radios, etc.) would be how I serve the group best.

4. How much can you share/trust with the group?
Enough that it keeps us in their good graces, but keeping enough of a rationed supply back that if we need to evac quickly, we've not played all our cards and are now sitting with lower-torso appendages secured in hand. Trust is earned, not bestowed.

5. You (your family) are the only prepared members people in sight? How does that affect your decisions?
Again, this would depend on surroundings. Based on the way the situation has played out thus far, we're talking a two-tier security perimeter (outer fencing with inner structural security). This creates a good place to reside, but the food situation is what would really make me raise an eyebrow. Also, aside from our two-each 1L nagalene bottles and purification tablets, the wife and I would eventually run out of water within, best case, 7-10 days time. The filtration system they've setup on the show has thus far show to work quite well. So right there, we're talking adequate shelter and renewable safe drinking water. I think that given shared-goal attitudes of survival, we would probably stay with the group until a situation presented itself where would better be left to our twosome than to stay with the community.
AZMedic wrote:Oh thats not sarcasm at all. We would be truly fucked.
Melpat wrote:That "lacquer coated" ammo causes Christ to curse, causes babies to cry at odd hours, and is responsible for flat beer.
I am AR/9mm convert/pie/red-wire classic-style.

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:32 am

If they take my deal of security and sustainment;

Then I would ask someone to help with the stroller and the dogs. I might even let them take turns carrying my daughter. My wife and I would shed what we could and more fore/aft of the group to provide security.

The group would know that we had weapons to spare, but until I knew/trusted the people more I wouldn't start handing them out.

I would had out sips of water and snacks of food to keep everyone going. I agree with the idea of doling out the boo-boo kit to keep people moving and to gain good will. I would not have real meals or show a preference to my family. Instead of bringing the group up to our standard of supply I would lower my family to theirs.

When we get to the department store;
First thing I would consider is staying there. Can we secure it? Is it sustainable? By the premise of the show my answer has to be no. They also stipulate that we only have fifteen minutes.

That being the circumstances, I push my family into a corner near the front door with some security. Maybe in a register kiosk or office. I offer to check the building out while everyone else starts salvaging from the front heading back. If possible I get one (maybe John after stereotyping him as older and slower, if I know them better than I would leave Morgan as the slower one) to stay at the front of the store to act as a look out.

Secure to the back, then salvage heading forward to meet the group. Carry what I can and catalog the rest for a second trip.

The looter's bush rush happens toward the end of the fifteen. At that point I would be upfront with my family trying to consolidate the salvage ahead of the fifteen minute deadline assuming we have to roll out the door at 14:59. If there's anything left to gather I would do my best to send runners back for specific items that I cataloged and my first run through.

Hopefully our lookout has given us notice that they're coming. If not then they're the first indicator of the raider's intentions. If they say 'Hi... how are you' we can talk. If they immediately assault the lookout then we start with warning shots. If they group is large and intended to rush us then we move to stop them. My wife may hesitate, but I doubt that I will when my family is threatened. I'll open fire and try to get the colony group to consolidate around my family at the kiosk. My priority is to take out threats to group with preventing theft of the new loot coming in second.
Armageddon was yesterday ..... today we have a serious problem!!!
-stieg larsson

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by thelung187 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:47 am

JT_of_JFF wrote:If they take my deal of security and sustainment;

Then I would ask someone to help with the stroller and the dogs. I might even let them take turns carrying my daughter. My wife and I would shed what we could and more fore/aft of the group to provide security.
I don't have kids, but I think I can say with a good amount of confidence that unless these were family friends, I wouldn't let them hold my kids until after we'd clocked some serious hours in together.
JT_of_JFF wrote:When we get to the department store;
First thing I would consider is staying there. Can we secure it? Is it sustainable? By the premise of the show my answer has to be no. They also stipulate that we only have fifteen minutes.
Don't take this the wrong way, but have you not seen the 48-page stickied post at the top of this forum that says that this is a really, really bad idea?
JT_of_JFF wrote: If they immediately assault the lookout then we start with warning shots.
If they're assaulting your lookout, it's probably safe to assume they want to rob/kill you. Warning shots are waste ammo imho, and they've obviously got hostile intent; I'd have people gathering the supplies up to gtfo while you lay down conservative covering fire. Hell, you wouldn't be prosecuted under existing Florida law if someone did that today, let alone the PAW :)

I like this thread though, I find this show to be an enjoyable watch so far. Oh and don't think that I'm being overly critical/judgmental, just trying to point out a few things we have differing opinions about :D
AZMedic wrote:Oh thats not sarcasm at all. We would be truly fucked.
Melpat wrote:That "lacquer coated" ammo causes Christ to curse, causes babies to cry at odd hours, and is responsible for flat beer.
I am AR/9mm convert/pie/red-wire classic-style.

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:51 am

After the looter's bum rush;
We load up the stroller with the salvage and hand out backpacks to everyone. Take care of immediate medical needs then get off the X. Move a block or two away from the dept store and make sure surviving looters aren't following.

From there I assume we make a group decision (or the show dictates) that we need to move east fast and the river is the best/fastest way to do that. We review the salvage and address any immediate needs. I supplement the group from my bob including;
hats and sun coverings
electrolyte replacements
aspirin
water
blister bandages

As soon as we get to the river we use the MiniWorks EX from my BOB to start filtering water into spare camelbak bladders. I ration the purification tablets for the original three bladders but use these spares to keep the colony group hydrated with filtered water. The stroller will make good time on the concrete and can take a lot of the load off of people.

By chasing off the looters I'm assuming that we're carrying about twice the amount of supplies they did in the show. While that's better long term, it may be a wash on the 8 mile river hike.

I would have the group stay in the bottom right gully trying to stay out of the water. I would stay high up on the right side where I can recon better, see further down the river and listen for vehicles or shooting.

While the river provides for fast movement and should help us avoid conflict, it leaves us exposed if anyone were to attack.
Armageddon was yesterday ..... today we have a serious problem!!!
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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:06 am

thelung187 wrote:
I like this thread though, I find this show to be an enjoyable watch so far. Oh and don't think that I'm being overly critical/judgmental, just trying to point out a few things we have differing opinions about :D
Not a problem... that's why I started the thread. You're being honest and constructive. I don't think I could ask for anything more than that.

Thoughts;
If I had a choice I would never trust anyone with my kids and I would carry them both at the same time until I dropped, but in a PAW reality might set in. My first choice would be to put both kids in the stroller. Problem there is 70lb of kids versus 300lbs of supplies. Its also complicated by the fact that my wife is 7mo pregnant and at best could only carry a 20-30lb pack. She couldn't carry either child. My son can walk miles on his own, but eventually those little legs are going to get tired. I might not have any choice if the group is going to keep moving.

Your thoughts about securing the department store are well taken. I didn't really think that out as much when I wrote it because it seemed like a moot point because of the scenario. I didn't consider it in the same vein as the wal-mart/Sam's post because it appeared like a small local store even thought he called it a department store.

First thing I do when I look at a building is look for escape routes, how defensible is it and how can we secure it. I also might consider how long can we salvage this place, can we stay for a rest, is it dark out and it would be better to stay until morning... that kind of stuff. You're right that it shouldn't be a long term refuge as it will only attract predators.
thelung187 wrote:
If they're assaulting your lookout, it's probably safe to assume they want to rob/kill you. Warning shots are waste ammo imho, and they've obviously got hostile intent; I'd have people gathering the supplies up to gtfo while you lay down conservative covering fire. Hell, you wouldn't be prosecuted under existing Florida law if someone did that today, let alone the PAW :)
This is just me thinking, but that first time I would like to take the extra second to avoid a shoot out if I could. I love my wife but her performance in a real shout-out is an unknown... heck my performance is an unknown. I think everything will change when we have dead bodies and screaming wounded.

The second shootout might happen a little faster :P
Armageddon was yesterday ..... today we have a serious problem!!!
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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:27 am

Thought:
If the looter's rush turns into a shootout we're going to learn a lot about the colony cast real fast.

The more liberal members may be offended and become alienated. Suriving looters will almost certainly have some sort of sob story that will appeal to liberal leaning people.

The more conservative or self-centered may demand that I hand out guns to everyone so they can defend themselves. They may also demand a level of 'justice' that you're not prepared to participate in.

Questions will also arise about treating/handling the wounded looters or taking prisoners. Some people may see dead bodies and go introvert. Some may freak out and run. If it turned into a shootout, you may loose members of the group or be rejected by people that 'didn't sign up for this'

Whatever happens though the seriousness of the situation will be set in stone... i.e. there's no going back... this is TEOTWAWKI.
Armageddon was yesterday ..... today we have a serious problem!!!
-stieg larsson

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by thelung187 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:47 am

JT_of_JFF wrote:Thought:
If the looter's rush turns into a shootout we're going to learn a lot about the colony cast real fast.

The more liberal members may be offended and become alienated. Suriving looters will almost certainly have some sort of sob story that will appeal to liberal leaning people.

The more conservative or self-centered may demand that I hand out guns to everyone so they can defend themselves. They may also demand a level of 'justice' that you're not prepared to participate in.

Questions will also arise about treating/handling the wounded looters or taking prisoners. Some people may see dead bodies and go introvert. Some may freak out and run. If it turned into a shootout, you may loose members of the group or be rejected by people that 'didn't sign up for this'

Whatever happens though the seriousness of the situation will be set in stone... i.e. there's no going back... this is TEOTWAWKI.
My thoughts, based on your lines:

1. True.
2. Let them be offended. Just remember, you were only defending yourselves.
3. Too bad, a lack of preparation on their part does not precipitate a comprise of your own personal security.
4. You're not police. You can either let them go, shoot them in the leg and leave them, or execute a hostile so as to avoid a repeat encounter in the future.

IMHO, always be prepared enough to leave the group if it looks like you will be better off solo/with family than with the community as a whole.
AZMedic wrote:Oh thats not sarcasm at all. We would be truly fucked.
Melpat wrote:That "lacquer coated" ammo causes Christ to curse, causes babies to cry at odd hours, and is responsible for flat beer.
I am AR/9mm convert/pie/red-wire classic-style.

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by Istvan56 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:11 am

Based upon the OP's scenario:

It is the PAW and I was at home or have made it home to my family. However, my BIL is not habitable any longer and I need to move to my primary BOB which is my workplace. We can't take all of my supplies and weapons so I will make Cache #1 at or near my home. It is a nine mile drive to work in my Ford Expedition. It is an eight passenger SUV w/ a roof rack and trailer hitch rack for added cargo room. We get one mile and there is a problem, the SUV isn't going to make it. Cache #2 is not far from the SUV and has additional supplies and weapons (I didn't leave them all at home). My family and I are going to hoof it all the way to my workplace with our BOB's and one wheeled tub in tow (it has MRE's and misc. gear). We consist of the following:

Federal Police Officer in uniform (no gray man here) with my EBR (depends on if I have my duty weapons or home weapons) and pistol. I have a backpack over my LBE w/ camelback and some gear. I don't overload myself, only rifle plus 3 mags and pistol plus 2 mags, a fixed blade knife in the pack and a pocket folder, Taser, handcuffs (1 plus flexcuffs), flashlight, small radio, ASP, usual cop duty gear. As far as appearances go I am a LEO escorting refugees (which is true).

My wife is handicapped, so she has only her Glock 19, w/ 3 mags and a small backpack w/ her BOB.

My 17 year old son has either my AK-103 clone or a Russian SKS, depending on whether I have my duty weapons or personal weapons. He gets my Glock 22 if I have my duty SIG 229. If not he gets a Mauser HSc .380 (carried concealed) that belongs to a sister who is away at college. He has his backpack and is stuck pulling the wheeled tub.

My 17 year old daughter (twins 8) ) has her brother's M1 Carbine and her CZ-83 .380 pistol (concealed). Of course she has her backpack.

My 13 year old daughter has her concealed .25 Auto pistol and her backpack. She gets the Mauser HSc if her brother has my Glock.

As we get in the area of my workplace we pass the department store, in this case there is an Ikea store nearby. Typical of the situation, it has been heavily looted. I am not taking my family into said store, we all know how bad bugging out to a Wally World or other store is. So I will scout it out with binoculars since it makes a likely raider base and too close to my workplace for comfort if it is. There are other buildings, mainly industrial buildings/warehouses in the area so I will have my family set up a hidey hole for now. Obviously in keeping with the OP's scenario I spot several refugees ("The Colony" cast) scavenging what they can in the store. They have no sense of security and no obvious weapons. So they are not a great threat to my family and might be of use to us. (My BOL is capable of sustaining many, many more people than just my family.) Also they appear to be typical unprepared folks.

Leaving my son in an overwatch position and my backpack with the wife I approach the store cautiously. When I announce myself it will be as the police with my rifle covering them. I expect to see fear, then relief. If there is any sign of hostility then they are in trouble. At this time I will question them about who they are, how did they get there, what is their state of preparedness, etc. If they will listen and follow my lead they can join my group. If not then I will bid them good luck. It won't be until after I have gauged their trustworthiness that I will reveal that I'm not alone and have backup a radio call away. If during my time with them the raiders bum rush the group I will defend them as best as I can radioing to my son of the attack. Depending on the group's acceptance of my terms is whether I stay or conduct a fighting retreat. My son will only cover my retreat and not come to my aid inside.

In the event of wounded raiders then I will have to decide whether to simply interrogate them and leave them for their friends or give them the option of a quick relief of their pain (bullet to the head). I have no jail or magistrate to deliver them to. The doctor and ER nurse will likely want to treat them. I don't have a problem with treating and leaving them for their buddies to find or to not find. Since I'm not taking them and have plenty of medical supplies in my caches and at my BOL I can be that merciful. My FAK is not going to be used on raiders, only what the group has scrounged in medical supplies at the store will be spared. Again, this is a good test of group dynamics and who are troublemakers, hotheads, etc. (i.e. Micheal and Joey I think).

Assuming that some or all of the group will join me then we will take what they have gathered in supplies (I will have them inventory it and leave a government IOU for it :lol: ) and join up with my family. The newcomers do not get weapons, not until trust is well established and I can train them on the use of any weapons I dole out. It is about another mile to my BOL from the store. I have to make sure that it has not been compromised and that any friendlies there (my fellow officers) know we are coming in. If there are friendlies on location the newcomers get to occupy an outbuilding until my group is satisfied they can be trusted to come into the main facility. The outbuilding has porta-potties, blankets, cooking fuel (sterno type cans) with access to a nearby pond for water. They have some food to get by until we have reached a final conclusion about the group. Since they have many desirable skills we will likely bring them into our "colony."

Michael is the hotheaded handyman? He will be useful in his limited capacity as a handyman but not as armed security. My BOL has two large diesel generators and 12,000 gallons of fuel for them and one diesel boiler for hot water/heat. The folks with electrical skills will be bypassing non-critical systems so we get the longest life out of the power supply. It has two ponds (one inside the fence and one outside) and a nearby creek for a fresh water supply (which they can filter). There are two kitchens on site, a workshop, and of course offices to put to use. Conference rooms become barracks for those without families. The Police suite is my base of operations while the Executive suite can be divided up for couples and families.

The second group of four colonists who approach will be screened in a similar fashion to the first. Simple housing in the outer building until vetted and either brought in or sent away. The one ex-con is a problem. He might get the boot. It will take a long time before I trust anyone other than a fellow officer or my own family with a firearm. I'm a police instructor so they get a mini-academy before being issued weapons. We even have a firing range on site to train on.

My site has a small fleet of vehicles available to go and retrieve my supply caches with. It is highly defensible to deal with the raider threat. As I've pointed out in other threads it has land for gardens, small game and waterfowl there. It isn't perfect but it is a much better place than the "Sanctuary" of the show.

[edited to get the names right.]

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:37 am

Istvan56 wrote:
The doctor and ER nurse will likely want to treat them.
Yeah... pointing that out makes it 10x more likely they'll go nuts or complain.

Istvan56 wrote:
Federal Police Officer in uniform (no gray man here) with my EBR (depends on if I have my duty weapons or home weapons) and pistol. I have a backpack over my LBE w/ camelback and some gear. I don't overload myself, only rifle plus 3 mags and pistol plus 2 mags, a fixed blade knife in the pack and a pocket folder, Taser, handcuffs (1 plus flexcuffs), flashlight, small radio, ASP, usual cop duty gear. As far as appearances go I am a LEO escorting refugees (which is true).

My wife is handicapped, so she has only her Glock 19, w/ 3 mags and a small backpack w/ her BOB.

My 17 year old son has either my AK-103 clone or a Russian SKS, depending on whether I have my duty weapons or personal weapons. He gets my Glock 22 if I have my duty SIG 229. If not he gets a Mauser HSc .380 (carried concealed) that belongs to a sister who is away at college. He has his backpack and is stuck pulling the wheeled tub.

My 17 year old daughter (twins 8) ) has her brother's M1 Carbine and her CZ-83 .380 pistol (concealed). Of course she has her backpack.

My 13 year old daughter has her concealed .25 Auto pistol and her backpack. She gets the Mauser HSc if her brother has my Glock.
Isn't that a lot of different firearms, calibers and magazines to keep track of? 4-6 calibers and 5-6 magazines?

We go with what we've got is a great and understandable answer but are you attempting to bring some commonality/interchangeability to the list?
Istvan56 wrote:
It is about another mile to my BOL from the store. I have to make sure that it has not been compromised and that any friendlies there (my fellow officers) know we are coming in. If there are friendlies on location the newcomers get to occupy an outbuilding until my group is satisfied they can be trusted to come into the main facility. The outbuilding has porta-potties, blankets, cooking fuel (sterno type cans) with access to a nearby pond for water. They have some food to get by until we have reached a final conclusion about the group. Since they have many desirable skills we will likely bring them into our "colony."

Michael is the hotheaded handyman? He will be useful in his limited capacity as a handyman but not as armed security. My BOL has two large diesel generators and 12,000 gallons of fuel for them and one diesel boiler for hot water/heat. The folks with electrical skills will be bypassing non-critical systems so we get the longest life out of the power supply. It has two ponds (one inside the fence and one outside) and a nearby creek for a fresh water supply (which they can filter). There are two kitchens on site, a workshop, and of course offices to put to use. Conference rooms become barracks for those without families. The Police suite is my base of operations while the Executive suite can be divided up for couples and families.
BOL sounds cool but public/govt. I've looked at a couple locations like that just-in-case but have no inherit right to commandeer them except for my workplace, but its less than ideal. Any chance FEMA or the state is going to come rolling in and usurp your plans?
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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:47 am

thelung187 wrote:
IMHO, always be prepared enough to leave the group if it looks like you will be better off solo/with family than with the community as a whole.
+1
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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by Istvan56 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:05 pm

Issues you brought up:

1) I have a few weapons in my house in quite a few calibers with ammo for each. It is a collection of firearms, not a police department's arsenal. It is what it is because it took me skimping and saving over 30 years to buy what little I have. The kids have their pistols and enough ammo to get to where I'm going. I can equip everyone with common weapons once at my BOL. Also my BOL (department) has ammo for two of my pistols and my shotgun. However, having a variety of weapons is not that bad when you never know what you will run across later on.

Now if I was at work when the SHTF I have access to dozens of weapons in four calibers. Obviously to fit with this scenario I left the facility at some point to go home. If I did so I took my duty pistol which I'd augment with a Colt LE M4. My son knows how to shoot my AK-103 clone, he can learn the joys of M4orgeries only when he gets to the BOL. 8)

2) My BOL is one of dozen of federal facilities in the region. Remember that the government is not one entity but a huge bureaucracy. One advantage of this mess is that each entity is its' own kingdom. FEMA doesn't even know we exist. Heck, Goggle Maps doesn't even know we exist. Try to find us and we are an empty field on the satellite photo because our site is so new. There are a few other federal law enforcement entities that know of us (i.e. Secret Service, Air Marshals,) since they use our range but they wouldn't likely show up to take over our facility in the PAW. After all, they don't know about our emergency supplies and equipment. Most of our employees don't know either. And few of them ever even considered preparing for the PAW. Work to them means drudgery and a place to be avoided. :lol:

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:13 pm

:D
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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:02 pm

Finding 'Sanctuary';

OK... so this is where the show told us to go...hhhmmmm. No real source of fresh water. No gardens or vegetation. Stuck in an industrial section where most salvage will be toxic, rusty and inedible. Its an area that will harbor groups (especially in LA) that I may seek conflict as a first overture. If it were up to me we would overnight and keep moving out of the city. I don't really see any advantages to staying at this place as opposed to any other generic building. Its big and hard to secure offering no benefits to offset.

BUT.. we're here to stay because the show says so.

First thing to do is secure the main building. The Diagram says there are five doors into the main building and the courtyard walls aren't contiguous. For the first night I would worry about securing the building doors and pulling an obvious salvage back into the building. The chain was a good first attempt but moving containers around to block doors and holes in walls would be my second choice. I would abandon the courtyard for the first night, but plan to secure it better later. I would reinforce the window by the front door and use it as an observation point to check the street during patrols or before opening the main door.

Getting the forklift working would be one of my first projects. Propane doesn't go bad and being inside the building I have the impression that it was working when it was left there. I would try and get John V and Vladimir to get it going. If we look around there should be spare propane and an industrial area should have plenty to forage. If they say it will take time, then we'll put the project off until morning and get people to do some chores before eating and resting.

I would use the mezzanine for the sleeping just like they have but I would split the supplies between the first and second floors. I would secure the door out the back but prep it as a bolt hole if necessary. The door exits onto another street far from the main entrance. We would store the stroller, half the back packs and half the supplies by the door. If invaded we secure the mezzanine or bolt out the back.

First thing would be to set up a security watch in pairs that walked the perimeter. As a couple we would take first watch and set ourselves up to act as an armed fast response. Each new patrol couple would walk the perimeter at least once with the previous couple before taking over the watch. During the overlap they pass on observations and concerns.

Other small first night projects;
Sleeping area, buckets for bathrooms, sweeping the floors and clearing walk ways, quick inventory of salvage.

BIG FIRST NIGHT TREAT;
Medium sized but hot meal. BOB can contribute matches, lighter, can opener, knives and clean cooking set. I would not break out the MREs instead holding them in case of bolt/evac or emergency.

BIG FIRST NIGHT GOAL;
Have a campfire meeting, get to know each other and start setting guidelines for work expectation, public/personal property, security and resources. Lastly a protocol for dealing with conflict that arises inside or outside of the group.

The next morning I would have them resume on the forklift and start looking for potable water. I would have them look around for water heaters, water towers or water mains that might still have potable water. Then I would look for running water but I would only go back to the river if all other sources were exhausted. If we did the river water I would develop a filter similar to what they had. If I couldn't find charcoal I would make it. I would use one of the long but narrow pipes instead of the trashcan in order to increase the depth of layers and increase dwell time. I would also add a prefilter to the setup. After the major filtering, I would continue to use the Miniworks from my BOB for my pregnant wife and the children's drinking water. At this point I would save the small stash of purification tablets in my BOB for emergencies. I would also start work (depending on season and weather) on a rainwater collection system.

Thoughts;
I would love the give the security patrols radios but its another item that I haven't added to the BOB just yet and while I have batteries some form of solar charger would be a bonus.
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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by velojym » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:33 pm

Now there's an interesting twist that's unlikely to happen on the show. The survivors get everything running reasonably well,
only to be looted by a bunch of goons in baby blue helmets... at gunpoint. Of course, being a MSM show, the survivors will be woefully under-armed.
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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:33 pm

New people showing up??

The first reaction to someone showing up would be to double check and secure the perimeter. Additionally I need to make sure that my family is safe and secure. Since I merged with this group in order to provide security, I need to take the point and wouldn't expect much argument although I would likely hear some whining in multiple directions. I would calm everyone down and leave the people to stew while I did so. I would explain the situation and my intentions.

1st we would decide if we even wanted to answer them or leave them to walk on their way.
2nd we could tell them in unecuivical terms to get lost... end of discussion
3rd start ac conversation that may lead to negotiations for admittance

I would never open the door, let them in, offensively detain them or offensively hold them at gunpoint.

If we want to talk then lets find out what they want. Just coming in isn't an answer. If all they want to do is talk then we do that through the window. I might ask a lot of questions and answer none. If they don't like it they can leave.

If they want to enter then we need to negotiate for what they want and what they have to offer. I would hope that the group lets me negotiate some terms.
(1) we don't trust you but you have no choice but to trust us.
(2) personal property is personal and communal property is communal and will be shared equally
(3) you'll have to consent separated interviews and a personal search before entry
(4) entry is probational and we reserve the right to eject anyone by 2/3 majority. ejectees take their personal property but no communal property.
(5) anyone can leave any time but they cannot leave with communal property
(6) every one works

If they agree, then we open the door with security, separate them from their belongings and each other. We then interview them to make sure their stories match. We search their items to inventory what they came with and to validate stories. During this time everything should be communicated and handled openly. If they re-nig on their agreement then they will be taken back to their possesions and allowed to leave. If they refuse then I'll use pepper spray to encourage them. Hopefully it never comes to that, their stories check out and they become productive contributers to the group.

Thought;
Bringing someone in and then letting them leave is a risk but really I don't see any other civilized options. It the chance you have to consider before you let them in. That's why you have to be so careful. Once they're in you're exposed.
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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:41 pm

First nighttime visitor;

I would ignore him unless I felt he was a threat. Banging on the door is not a threat. Its not a reason to broadcast our presence. If he can't get through the door he most likely will move on. Let him but keep security at a heightened alert for at least a few hours.

If it looks like he's determined then use a flashlight or harsh language to dissuade him. If he leaves, same as above.

If you can't dissuade him then deal with him forcefully and to a completion. I would not start shooting. That would draw too much attention. Every goon for a mile or two would get interested and while some would shy away from gunfire other would run like vultures to a carcase. I would send him on his way or get a group together and deal with him directly.
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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by Istvan56 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:53 pm

More points regarding the show.

1) The department store is obviously claimed by a raider group as part of their territory. Going back is a no go.

2) Sanctuary was marked by someone and looked like it had been inhabited. Either that guy that showed up the first night or someone in the area (if still alive) has a claim to it. Possession may be 9/10ths of the law but getting your place taken over by a new group can make someone real bent on revenge. It is also a sucky spot to shelter in long term with very little chance of becoming self-sufficient in food production let alone a reliable source of water in rain poor L.A. More reasons that members of The Colony should team up with my group rather than stay there. However, rejects from my group will be directed there. Nothing like giving them somewhere to go.

3) So while sanctuary is set in L.A. my BOL is not. However there are parallels such as my BOL is in an industrial/commercial district of a largely urban area, Greater Seattle/South King County. Despite this there are farms still in the Kent Valley just a few miles to my south. We have water. They have no serious freeze worries in winter but we do. Solar power works well for them, there are weeks we don't see the sun. (Did I mention we have water? Lot's of water? Usually in the form of rain? :P )

4) The PAW scenario is an epidemic though it should be termed a pandemic. The pathogen may be out there and we don't know the vector. Our medical team will monitor the residents of the colony and quarantine newcomers in the outbuilding as I earlier mentioned. Another worry is food, getting adequate nutrition and preventing scurvy. We need supplies, seeds, fertilizers, etc. from the Kent Valley sources. Some of that can be retrieved while making the run back to Cache #1 (my house).

5) My BOL is located not far from a tank farm. It is a priority target for both raiders (who have vehicles) and us though I'm only interested in diesel from there. Directly to the south beyond the wildlife preserve/wetlands is a new car transit lot (BNRR) which will be a target for the raiders. They'll be stealing and using all the gassed up new cars once they find the place. So there is a limited time to gather resources and survivors before we are raided and overwhelmed.

I see the need for survivors to band together when faced with a known threat. Isolated residences will be gobbled up one by one till the wolves have no more sheep to feed on. There is strength in numbers and with an expanding talent/work pool a greater chance of survival. One group not well represented by the cast of The Colony are farmers/gardeners. Oh, that is another point, livestock. South is also Emerald Downs horse track. I doubt too many folks are tending the remaining horses. A rescue is needed and they will help with plowing and providing transport. It's time to copy my Mormon pioneers (or the Amish). Low tech is good tech.

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:04 pm

Nighttime Security;
In addition to the patrols I would let my dogs roam the main building. They're not attack dogs but they can smell or hear strangers through walls. I wouldn't be worried about ttheir barking attracting people. There should be lots of dogs roaming around. Now they're not attack dogs, but I bet they would have let know about the lone visitor before the sentry patrol did.
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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by Istvan56 » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:39 am

I have pets. One is a dog. She sleeps with either my wife or my daughter while I'm away on duty. She's half beagle and half terrier of some sort but looks half Wiener dog instead. Low to the ground & fat. Friendly to everyone. Only chases squirrels which isn't a bad thing. Worthless mutt for guard duty as she is likely coyote food. And we have lots of coyotes around my BOL.

Anyway, night time security depends on whether I have fuel for the generators or not. As long as I have some power I can use the CCTV system and motion sensors that cover the anti-climb fence atop our wall. Did I mention this was a high security facility? It sure beats a corrugated tin walled warehouse. 8)

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by Deschain » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:45 pm

Quick question: When the other group shows up, you said 'interview them separately'. How would you maintain a watch, keep up the work, and interview them at the same time? Either work or security stops.

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by Istvan56 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:54 pm

JT_of_JFF wrote:New people showing up??
I would never open the door, let them in, offensively detain them or offensively hold them at gunpoint.

If we want to talk then lets find out what they want. Just coming in isn't an answer. If all they want to do is talk then we do that through the window. I might ask a lot of questions and answer none. If they don't like it they can leave.

If they want to enter then we need to negotiate for what they want and what they have to offer. I would hope that the group lets me negotiate some terms.
(1) we don't trust you but you have no choice but to trust us.
(2) personal property is personal and communal property is communal and will be shared equally
(3) you'll have to consent separated interviews and a personal search before entry
(4) entry is probational and we reserve the right to eject anyone by 2/3 majority. ejectees take their personal property but no communal property.
(5) anyone can leave any time but they cannot leave with communal property
(6) every one works

If they agree, then we open the door with security, separate them from their belongings and each other. We then interview them to make sure their stories match. We search their items to inventory what they came with and to validate stories. During this time everything should be communicated and handled openly. If they re-nig on their agreement then they will be taken back to their possesions and allowed to leave. If they refuse then I'll use pepper spray to encourage them. Hopefully it never comes to that, their stories check out and they become productive contributers to the group.
Deschain has a good question. For you to do all that you have set out here you will need virtually everyone in your colony to stand to and then be involved in this security check. There are four newcomers to interview, one male at least is young, healthy, and quite capable of being a physical threat. So he needs at least two men watching him. All four are potential threats if any have hidden guns. And you still need to watch the perimeter in case this group are mere scouts or decoys for a raider group.

As I see it you too are going down the road that Michael the Handyman and whats-his-name his helper did when they went behind the backs of the newcomers and started searching their gear. If you want these folks to get hostile, tell them they have to go through an interrogation and search but not you guys. Your group may be cannibals, raiders in sheep's clothing, just greedy for their gear, women, whatever or intent on enslaving them all. You are also asking that they have to give up what they have brought with no immediate recompense (e.g. donating their food to the communal supply).

Asking for their background stories without offering some background on your group and its goals is not good. Offer them some clean water and a seat in the shade, even if it is out in the yard before interviewing them. And make sure you talk to them in terms they can accept, that it is like a job interview. Trust is built up through mutual sharing, shared information at first and shared chores, risk, rewards, etc. later. At least you offer them the chance to leave alive and with what they brought with them.

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Re: BOB'ing with Discovery Channel's 'The Colony'

Post by JT_of_JFF » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:54 pm

Deschain wrote:
Quick question: When the other group shows up, you said 'interview them separately'. How would you maintain a watch, keep up the work, and interview them at the same time? Either work or security stops.

Deschain
As I see it work has already stopped. The decision to stop work occurred when you decide to let them in. You can keep working if you ignore them, but as long as they're banging on the door they're a potential thread, if for no reason other than they're drawing attention to us. It might not take the wole group as you start building a rapoire, but definitely in the beginning.

At this point its an investment of time. You have to assume that by taking the time to bring in more people, then you're sacrificing short term gain for long term results.

Even if you decide they should stay you wouldn't just give them the run of the place. You would team them up with members of the group. Preferably two group members per newcomer until they're integrated.

Istvan56 wrote:
As I see it you too are going down the road that Michael the Handyman and whats-his-name his helper did when they went behind the backs of the newcomers and started searching their gear. If you want these folks to get hostile, tell them they have to go through an interrogation and search but not you guys. Your group may be cannibals, raiders in sheep's clothing, just greedy for their gear, women, whatever or intent on enslaving them all. You are also asking that they have to give up what they have brought with no immediate recompense (e.g. donating their food to the communal supply).

Asking for their background stories without offering some background on your group and its goals is not good. Offer them some clean water and a seat in the shade, even if it is out in the yard before interviewing them. And make sure you talk to them in terms they can accept, that it is like a job interview. Trust is built up through mutual sharing, shared information at first and shared chores, risk, rewards, etc. later. At least you offer them the chance to leave alive and with what they brought with them.
I think you're confusing intent with methods. I didn't say I would do any of the things you're inferring. By assuming I would do it like Michael, you're assuming I would ellicit the same response. Perhaps its because I gave a straight to the point answer/list. I apologize. I was in a rush and didn't write the details step by step.

I said interview (as in job interview), not interrogate (like abu ghrab).
I said separate, not cuff, blindfold and throw in a room.
I said personal property is person....communal is communal. I only meant to say that communal would be shared. The implication is that their property is their own and if they leave they can take it with them, but that we are offering them a share of the communal property already acquired.
I would have had them present when their things were gone thorugh, just like at the airport. In fact it would most likely be done on the sidewalk as part of security before they're even brought in. Its possible, once we're relatively comfortable there isn't a pistol in there that they show us the contents themselves.

I would ask them their stories and then compare them for signs of duplicity. I don't know why that would create hostile attitudes toward our group unless you're assuming I can only ask in an asshole like way (a la michael). I'm not sure what I should share up front that they 'deserve'. I definitely wouldn't give them a sales pitch until I decided their best intentions and my own. That would be putting the horse before the cart and might compromise security.

Overall I didn't mean to imply it would be fair. This would be fairly one sided at first, but trust would have to start with the people on the outside wanting in. If they're worried I'm a cannibal, then they shouldn't be knocking on my door. They should put us under surveillance and determine that before approaching. I know I would.
JT_of_JFF wrote: (1) we don't trust you but you have no choice but to trust us.
This is why you want to be prepared and think about this ahead of time. Walking hat-in-hand up to a door and asking for charity or acceptance in the PAW is one of the worst circumstance I can think of. Its one of the worst because you apparently have no better options... and this one sux pretty horribly. You're putting your life in the hands of potential thugs, criminals, slavers, etc. etc. etc.
Armageddon was yesterday ..... today we have a serious problem!!!
-stieg larsson

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