VIC Down!

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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VIC Down!

Post by Oni » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:03 pm

Well kiddies time for round 2 of my little series. Thanks to Phil_in_CS for this suggestion

Your rolling in a three vehicle convoy. Wether this is your plan or not, youve managed to hook up with friends or make some along the way. Your carrying everything you have ready for your BOV. The other Vics (Army lingo for Vehicle) either belong to friends, family or fellow ZS'ers. As your moving down the open road your middle vehicle takes a flat tire. You do not know the local Enemy Situation. There looks to be an empty rest stop about a mile down the road. What Would You Do? Go.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by dogbane » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:29 pm

Pit stop! Image
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Murf » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:42 pm

Assuming I had communications between the vehicles, I'd send the lead vehicle ahead to scout and secure the rest stop. The middle vehicle would slow down (5 - 10 mph) but keep moving, driving on the flat. The tailing vehicle would stay behind to escort, providing additional fire support and evacuation options if the damaged vehicle had to be abandoned in a hurry.

Since you don't know why the vehicle took a flat, I think you would have to play it safe and assume it was a prelude to an ambush. Tire spikes or a shot fired from the roadside are possibilities. Ergo, I think driving on the flat is worth the risk over stopping immediately. It may break down the sidewalls and ruin the tire, but you'll be switching to the spare at the rest stop. As long as you drive slowly and there is still rubber on the wheel, you can make a mile without significantly damaging the rim.

If the ambush turned out to be at the rest stop, at least your lead/scouting vehicle would be undamaged, highly mobile and approaching with an elevated situational awareness. It would have a fighting chance and best case scenario, it could back out quickly if it came under fire and regroup with the other two vehicles. Worst case...you only lose a third of your convoy.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Deschain » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:45 pm

Two men on the flat, drivers still in the seat, and everyone else in a 360 defense. No one should be along the stretch of barren highway, but at a rest stop? Seems at least a little likely. So, get that tire changed, ASAP, get everyone back in the convoy and keep rolling.

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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Paladin1 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:47 pm

OK,

Empty rest spot? or ambush location?

Depending on the surrounding terrain, I would send one vic out front a short distance and one back a short distance so we expand our envelop and are not a one bunched up target. The forward and rear teams would be on high alert.

I would then fix the flat on the spot as quickly as possible.

If the surrounding terrain allowed it I would limp the wounded vic to a secluded location, set up the same defensive perimeter and execute repairs.

After repairs, one vehicle scouts "rest stop" with other vic's on overwatch. When cleared, move in.
At that point all vic's are gone over for routine maintenance and checked for any potential problems.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by dogbane » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:57 pm

I don't think continuing to drive on the flat is a great idea. Why tear up a tire that could be patched unless absolutely necessary? Who knows when you might find a replacement tire?
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Oni » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:12 pm

dogbane wrote:I don't think continuing to drive on the flat is a great idea. Why tear up a tire that could be patched unless absolutely necessary? Who knows when you might find a replacement tire?
Because everyone automatically assumes my Scenarios involve "Scary gunmen in ambush positions". So they are trying to cover all their bases. I'm just trying to promote tactical thinking and hope that if these situations occur people are better equipped mentally and emotionally to handle them.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Murf » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:30 pm

dogbane wrote:I don't think continuing to drive on the flat is a great idea. Why tear up a tire that could be patched unless absolutely necessary? Who knows when you might find a replacement tire?
If you suddenly take a flat on a highway, my guess is that the tire is very likely already damaged beyond patching.

I'd hate to stop immediately to repair and find out that it was a sniper that caused the flat. If it is an ambush, my feeling is that it is more likely set up at the site of the flat than at the rest stop. The open road offers no cover for the vehicles, and to me, it seems a bit far out to take your shot a full mile before the ambush. You run too much risk that the convoy will just stop and fix the flat and then bypass the rest stop completely.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by AwPhuch » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:34 pm

dogbane wrote:Pit stop! Image
Thats Peet Sthap!"

I would have divided all the gear evenly between the vehicles...even if you lost one..you wouldn't loose ALL of it

AKA redundancy, maybe even hide then abandon the vehicle..deliver the rest of the supplies, then possibly go back
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by avenger » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:46 pm

I think it's pretty unlikely in any case that the flat was caused by a sniper hitting your tire at highway speeds. Therefore, I imagine the safest spot to change the tire is right there, while setting 360 degree security and being ready to get into the operational vehicles at the first sign of trouble.
If anything, I'd be more concerned about an ambush at the rest area- if only because that's where I'd put an ambush if it were me.
In the open, a mile before the rest area chances are better that a convoy could drive through the ambush- whereas at the rest stop the convoy's more likely to be bottled in by retaining walls, ditches, buildings, etc. An ambush set across the exits of the rest area (or any other wide expanse of concrete surrounded by walls- like a parking lot) would leave the convoy literally no place to go.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by crypto » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:19 pm

If I dont have to worry about a crowd of people on the road and can operate with impunity I'll do it like this:


Truck with flat tire pulls off roadway with enough room on the flat side for another truck to pull alongside it with operating room. Preferably in a \ / chevron pattern if possible. The third vehicle pulls ahead 10-15m and stops at an oblique angle to the other two. This should offer the most protection for the guys changing the flat out.

Everyone un-asses the truck.

Those not involved in changing the flat establish take defensive positions, establish sectors of fire, using available terrain like jersey barriers, ditches, or if all else fails, vehicles for cover.

Once the tire is changed, pull the furthest guys out back to the truck, then pull the others in. Move out.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Oni » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:26 pm

Image

Image

I'm just saying...
Image

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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Murf » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:37 pm

avenger wrote:I think it's pretty unlikely in any case that the flat was caused by a sniper hitting your tire at highway speeds. Therefore, I imagine the safest spot to change the tire is right there, while setting 360 degree security and being ready to get into the operational vehicles at the first sign of trouble.
If anything, I'd be more concerned about an ambush at the rest area- if only because that's where I'd put an ambush if it were me.
In the open, a mile before the rest area chances are better that a convoy could drive through the ambush- whereas at the rest stop the convoy's more likely to be bottled in by retaining walls, ditches, buildings, etc. An ambush set across the exits of the rest area (or any other wide expanse of concrete surrounded by walls- like a parking lot) would leave the convoy literally no place to go.
-A-
Though I've never tried it, I feel like I could take out a tire on a vehicle moving at highway speeds. I'm not talking about any extreme distance, and if you're firing on a diagonal line as the vehicle approaches, the speed is less of a factor. I'd love to hear the opinions of some experienced precision shooters on that point, though. Even if a gunshot is discounted, there is still the possibility of a caltrop/tire spike.

I do follow your logic on bottling up the convoy, it just wouldn't be my preference. More people would be anticipating an ambush at the rest stop, so you lose the element of surprise. The ambushers also aren't going to be able to take out everyone at once, so those "retaining walls, ditches, buildings, etc." are going to provide cover for folks bailing out of the vehicles. I would think that the ambushers would prefer to have the vehicles and people out in the open where they could pick at them from their hides.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by zXzGrifterzXz » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:45 pm

If it was one of our Convoys the Lead and Rear vehicles would be the ones with the LMGs(the RPK and the HK21) and the center vehicle would most likely be filled with more gear and less well armed members rather then shooters.

Immediately -
~ Vehicle Number 1(Most likely my Jeep with the RPK) pushes out 40 or 50 yards ahead(if it isn't there already), everyone but the Gunner and Driver dismount and take a sector on each side of the road, the Gunner on the RPK on top of the truck constantly scans in a 180 towards the road ahead of the truck.

~ Convoy traveling distance discipline should have been in effect so the rear vehicle(Vehicle 3) should already be 40-50 yards behind the middle vehicle, their occupants do the same thing as vehicle 1, driver and the HK21 Gunner stay in the truck while the rest of the occupants push out to the sides of the road and take a sector. The HK21 gunner does the opposite of the RPK gunner and holds a 180 sector of the road behind the convoy.

~ During all that, Who ever is HMFIC(Most likely JPTP) gets on the comms with the vehicle commanders/RTOs and finds out how much damage vehicle 2 has. As long as it is a repairable or replaceable situation with the tire, the members of Vehicle 2 begin repairs, any extra armed occupants of that vehicle who are not directly helping with the repairs will emulate the actions of the occupants of Vehicles 1 and 3 and move to the sides of the road and hold security.


Best case scenario -
~ The repairs are completed quickly, everyone mounts back up, and the convoy moves on.

Probable scenario -
~ The flat was caused by a spike strip liberated from a highway patrol vehicle. During repairs the convoy comes under attack, Vehicles 1 & 3, and the security team for Vehicle 2 engage the attackers from their positions. The attacking force has slight numeric superiority but the LMGs and our teams training provides much greater fire superiority. Once the teams are no longer calling out potential threats, a cease fire is called Vehicle 2's security team(while being covered by Vehicle 1 & 3) checks the bodies of any of our attackers who weren't smart enough to flee. Dead Combatants are quickly searched and any useful gear is taken. Any firearms that we aren't taking with us(doubt that will happen often though) will be disabled and discarded. We quickly do a personnel, equipment(including vehicles), and ammo check. Once the repairs are completed, Everyone mounts back up. The convoy moves on ASAP, we change road, direction, and heading to try and avoid any further ambushes on that road. All of our driver scan the road surface with a little more scrutiny for the rest of the patrol/trip.

Worst Case Scenario -
~ Convoy comes under attack during repairs, Vehicles 1 & 3, and the security team for Vehicle 2 engage the attackers from their positions. If the attacking force has numeric or fire superiority and it does not look like Vehicle 2 will be able to complete their repairs then the security team from Vehicle 2 pops smoke to obscure the attackers line of sight with their downed vehicle and crew. Vehicles 1 & 3 converge on Vehicle 2 and quickly take as much personnel and gear as the working 2 vehicles can carry on top of their current loads and quickly GTFO of there while laying down hate at anything that isn't one of our own. ASAP, we change road, direction, and heading to try and avoid any further ambushes on that road. Once we are far enough down the road the HMFIC calls a halt and we quickly do a personnel, equipment(including vehicles), and ammo check.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Molon Labe » Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:13 pm

zXzGrifterzXz wrote:If it was one of our Convoys the Lead and Rear vehicles would be the ones with the LMGs(the RPK and the HK21) and the center vehicle would most likely be filled with more gear and less well armed members rather then shooters.

Immediately -
~ Vehicle Number 1(Most likely my Jeep with the RPK) pushes out 40 or 50 yards ahead(if it isn't there already), everyone but the Gunner and Driver dismount and take a sector on each side of the road, the Gunner on the RPK on top of the truck constantly scans in a 180 towards the road ahead of the truck.

~ Convoy traveling distance discipline should have been in effect so the rear vehicle(Vehicle 3) should already be 40-50 yards behind the middle vehicle, their occupants do the same thing as vehicle 1, driver and the HK21 Gunner stay in the truck while the rest of the occupants push out to the sides of the road and take a sector. The HK21 gunner does the opposite of the RPK gunner and holds a 180 sector of the road behind the convoy.

~ During all that, Who ever is HMFIC(Most likely JPTP) gets on the comms with the vehicle commanders/RTOs and finds out how much damage vehicle 2 has. As long as it is a repairable or replaceable situation with the tire, the members of Vehicle 2 begin repairs, any extra armed occupants of that vehicle who are not directly helping with the repairs will emulate the actions of the occupants of Vehicles 1 and 3 and move to the sides of the road and hold security.


Best case scenario -
~ The repairs are completed quickly, everyone mounts back up, and the convoy moves on.

Probable scenario -
~ The flat was caused by a spike strip liberated from a highway patrol vehicle. During repairs the convoy comes under attack, Vehicles 1 & 3, and the security team for Vehicle 2 engage the attackers from their positions. The attacking force has slight numeric superiority but the LMGs and our teams training provides much greater fire superiority. Once the teams are no longer calling out potential threats, a cease fire is called and Vehicle 2's security team(while being covered by Vehicle 1 & 3) checks the bodies of any of our attackers who weren't smart enough to flee. Dead Combatants are quickly searched and any useful gear is taken. Any firearms that we aren't taking with us(doubt that will happen often though) will be disabled and discarded. We quickly do a personnel, equipment(including vehicles), and ammo check. Once the repairs are completed, Everyone mounts back up. The convoy moves on ASAP, we change road, direction, and heading to try and avoid any further ambushes on that road. All of our driver scan the road surface with a little more scrutiny for the rest of the patrol/trip.

Worst Case Scenario -
~ Convoy comes under attack during repairs, Vehicles 1 & 3, and the security team for Vehicle 2 engage the attackers from their positions. If the attacking force has numeric or fire superiority and it does not look like Vehicle 2 will be able to complete their repairs then the security team from Vehicle 2 pops smoke to obscure the attackers line of sight with their downed vehicle and crew. Vehicles 1 & 3 converge on Vehicle 2 and quickly take as much personnel and gear as the working 2 vehicles can carry on top of their current loads and quickly GTFO of there while laying down hate at anything that isn't one of our own. ASAP, we change road, direction, and heading to try and avoid any further ambushes on that road. Once we are far enough down the road the HMFIC calls a halt and we quickly do a personnel, equipment(including vehicles), and ammo check.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by jamoni » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:55 pm

Deschain wrote:Two men on the flat, drivers still in the seat, and everyone else in a 360 defense. No one should be along the stretch of barren highway, but at a rest stop? Seems at least a little likely. So, get that tire changed, ASAP, get everyone back in the convoy and keep rolling.

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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Murf » Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:33 pm

Call me crazy, but I'm not going to stop and try to defend from what might be the kill zone of an ambush. If this were a military convoy in a war zone, it could just be harrasment (i.e. a couple of random gunmen trying to shake you up and maybe produce a couple of casualties before bolting). However, this is a civilian convoy in a bug out situation. If you're being ambushed, it's because someone wants to take your vehicles, weapons or supplies. They do not intend to leave until the fight is over and they have what they want. They know more about you than you do about them. They've already sized you up and they believe they are capable of overpowering you. If they didn't, they wouldn't have tried to stop you. They'd let you roll on by and wait for a softer target. They've also carefully selected a site that offers them a tactical advantage. Even if you stay on high alert and are fully prepared to GTFO if you're outgunned, by the time you come to that conclusion, you will have taken losses. The vehicle with the flat tire isn't disabled. It can still travel. I think you're better off leaving the area and conducting repairs at a location of your choosing, not the enemy's. If you're really concerned about the rest area being the ambush site, then I say keep driving past that, too.

I realize it may not be an ambush at all, but when I perform a risk assement, I factor in not only the likelihood of an occurance, but also the possible consequences of an occurance. Even if your likelihood is low to medium, if you throw it on a matrix against a serious impact severity, the result is a high risk situation.

If you stop, you run the risk of losing everything. If you don't stop, you run the risk of losing a tire that is probably already trashed anyway.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by suntzu » Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:33 pm

Question: If someone uses a spike strip on you, would you not lose more than one tire?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwhJ5uiv ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not the best video, but I think you would know if it was a spike strip or not. I've never had the opportunity to drive over one though, so WTF do I know.

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Re: VIC Down!

Post by zephir » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:07 am

suntzu wrote:Question: If someone uses a spike strip on you, would you not lose more than one tire?
Good point. All 4 (or however many tires on that vehicle) will be lost too, along with the lead vehicle's tires. It would be very hard to miss someone deploying out a spike strip between the lead the middle vehicle. So if its only 1 flat, then that's a normal loss of tire. if there is more than one flat then its pretty obvious someone deployed a spike strip and wants people to stop in that area. Considering its a 3 vehicle convoy, I think all 3 vehicle's tires would be flat, since everyone is driving thru what could possibly be hostile territory, a spike strip will be left out across the road, camouflaged and waiting for vehicles to run over it, rather than someone deploying that right when vehicles are passing thru, since that person would likely be spotted (unless its at night) and everyone will stop before hitting the spike strip. Then everyone will simply go around the strip and problem avoided.

For the scenario, reduce speed and debate what to do (on the radio), while some people in each vehicle get out the scoped rifles and binoculars, start examining the area around us to see if there is anyone or any presence of anyone around. If there seems to be no one around us, stop and change the tire, move the vehicles off the road for the moment, 2 ppl change the tire, everyone else takes out a rifle and keep watch of the area around us for any signs of anyone. If it all goes uneventfully, the tire is changed, everyone gets back in and continue driving. If there is someone or seems to be someone around us, hostile or not, we're not stopping until that presence is gone. Stop, 360 protection, change tire, leave.

Now that this is mentioned, before leave every vehicle will be fitted with run flats if possible to avoid this situation.

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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:12 am

Good thread. Great to see some seriousness creeping back into WWYD.

I have a question rather than an opinion (one that I see Murph touched upon in his answer above)...

I thought current .mil doctrine was to drive through and out the kill zone of an ambush?
I know Oni said it was (maybe just) a flat, and that the local enemy situation was unknown at the time so if I'm derailing just tell me to kindly GTFO :).

Also, if I'm asking you all to contravene OPSEC by discussing current counter ambush doctrine, again, just kindly tell me to STFU - I won't get butthurt. 8)
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by dogbane » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:19 am

Oni wrote:Image

I'm just saying...
I know that illustration. I ain't sayin' from where. :twisted:
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by andygates » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:35 am

Heh. ;)

My reaction would have to depend on the general situation. The initial post merely says we don't know the enemy situation: that includes whether or not there are enemies. In a general bug-out, snipers seem astonishingly unlikely. In the UK, snipers are even less likely than that.

I'd like to say that I'd pull the vehicles together (with radio or flashy-headlights to signal the problem), pop the passengers in the other vehicles leaving the engines running and the drivers in place, fix the flat and move on.

In reality, I think we'd all curse and stretch our legs, and get all un-tactical taking a piss and arguing over maps while fixing the flat.

If there were zombies, well, the enemy situation isn't unknown any more: you have to assume constant threat, and I guess at that point we get the vehicles all close up, transfer people and gear, and move on fast.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by Wolfdude87 » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:17 pm

2 armed passengers would change the tire while the driver stayed in the vehicle. It takes minutes to change a tire so I'd just have people with rifles scope out our surroundings so we could have warning if something were to go wrong. Change the tire and leave.
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Re: VIC Down!

Post by andygates » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:54 pm

...and hope you haven't packed all your evacuation junk on top of the spare. :roll:
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