Minutemen groups in A PAW

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by JF89 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:16 am

Im not talking so much about a survival or prepper group but an actual group of people that are responsible for protecting their town and being ready in A minutes notice.

What do you think A modern day minutemans gear, loadout, etc would look like?

How about their communications and transportation?

What weapons, gear, etc would you use if you were a member of your towns minutemen?

How would a modern day militia differ from the original groups back in the 1700's ,in regards to structure and organization?

Basically I feel like having a theoretical discussion on modern minutemen in A PAW scenario.

--- To prevent a sh** fest, please no political talk about the 3%, no bringing up other modern day groups using the minutemen name and no arguing over the definition of "Militia".

Also, I wasnt sure where to post this and apologize in advance if uts out of place in this section.

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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by flybynight » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:47 am

I think modern day Minutemen would look most likely similar to like this

Image
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by JF89 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:04 am

flybynight wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:47 am
I think modern day Minutemen would look most likely similar to like this

Image
I specified in a "In a post apocalyptic world (PAW)". There would be no cops around at that point.

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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by JF89 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:13 am

Thats getting off topic, I specified I didnt want to get in to debates on the definition. Minutemen were citizens and vets that grouped together to protect their town, they were an irregular force of plain clothed citizens.

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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by Ellywick » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:16 am

Not to sound like I'm avoiding the topic, JF89, but I agree with Flybynight (gah, I have to figure out a way to shorten your handle, so long to type but Fly doesn't sound right and night makes you sound like an emo superhero/vigilante).

In almost any PAW scenario (with maybe the exception of all out nuclear war, but even then people in high places have bunkers to retreat to) the rule of law in the land would not immediately go out the door and the government would continue to try and function/take care of the issue, even if they did it poorly. This means that LEOs and the military would continue to do their jobs of trying to protect their people.

Even when/if things got so terrible that everything became "defend your own" or whatever, I still believe a lot of LEOs would continue to try and do their job. They are the most prepared and trained for the job of protecting people and enforcing order than anyone but military/ex-military and quite a few LEOs I know are also veterans. People can complain all they want about law enforcement officers being corrupt or soft or whatever, and they're human too and so are flawed and can make mistakes, but most of the LEOs I know take their job very seriously and have a lot of pride in it. Both of my grandfather's were LEOs and I know they would have carried on in some capacity doing their job, even if they maybe had to bring on other people to help.

Even everyone's darling, The Walking Dead, agrees with this. The group is led by a former police officer. I mean, the TV show won't be soon, but both Rick and Carl are still kicking in the comics, so I choose to ignore that fact.

Oh, and Mad Max is a former police officer as well (still is in the first movie- which is a great example of society tumbling towards a PAW, but not there yet).
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by JF89 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:30 am

Ellywick wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:16 am
Not to sound like I'm avoiding the topic, JF89, but I agree with Flybynight (gah, I have to figure out a way to shorten your handle, so long to type but Fly doesn't sound right and night makes you sound like an emo superhero/vigilante).

In almost any PAW scenario (with maybe the exception of all out nuclear war, but even then people in high places have bunkers to retreat to) the rule of law in the land would not immediately go out the door and the government would continue to try and function/take care of the issue, even if they did it poorly. This means that LEOs and the military would continue to do their jobs of trying to protect their people.

Even when/if things got so terrible that everything became "defend your own" or whatever, I still believe a lot of LEOs would continue to try and do their job. They are the most prepared and trained for the job of protecting people and enforcing order than anyone but military/ex-military and quite a few LEOs I know are also veterans. People can complain all they want about law enforcement officers being corrupt or soft or whatever, and they're human too and so are flawed and can make mistakes, but most of the LEOs I know take their job very seriously and have a lot of pride in it. Both of my grandfather's were LEOs and I know they would have carried on in some capacity doing their job, even if they maybe had to bring on other people to help.

Even everyone's darling, The Walking Dead, agrees with this. The group is led by a former police officer. I mean, the TV show won't be soon, but both Rick and Carl are still kicking in the comics, so I choose to ignore that fact.

Oh, and Mad Max is a former police officer as well (still is in the first movie- which is a great example of society tumbling towards a PAW, but not there yet).
This is a theoretical discussion. Theres been plenty of countries who have been in a situation where their government fell apart whether its from economic collapse (Argentina) or civil war (Bosnia) and they cannot help the people, im talking about the PAW though. Im not saying a cop cant lead a group, like in the movies but it wont be government funded at that point. The original minutemen were trained by vets , it wasnt just citizens winging it.

Just to be clear, I have no issues with cops. My grandfather was a cop for 30 years and I have nothing but respect for that profession.
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by JF89 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:33 am


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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by JF89 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:38 am

In the apacolypse, even if there were cops they would need militiamen to aid them. As in citizens that volunteer to aid them with any security issues, there most likely would not be a huge government infrastructure and without that they will be targeted even more than they are now where they have the advantage in numbers and resources.

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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by Stercutus » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:53 am

By your definition of the terms and the way of employment any such group would quickly run afoul of anti-militia laws in my state. There were many such organizations in the reconstruction era that performed the exact same functions under discussion. Many were precursors for later hate groups such as the KKK. This resulted in them being shut down. A few survived with various exceptions but none of the surviving groups function as a militia any longer. For example Woodsmen of the World was granted an exception. Today they are no longer a civic organization or militia but instead just a life insurance company.

A minuteman type organization around here would have to be a police reserve to avoid being corralled by the state. Some Reserve agencies around the state make the Reservist buy his own gear and weapons but it has to match the ones used by the police force. They have to take an oath to the US and the State and be commissioned by a judge. Police reserves down here are nearly all armed.

Any other such group bonding together for the common defense on public property will face a lot of scrutiny and likely be shut down. With no oversight the potential for bad things to happen is very high. I should know, I saw it and lived it in Iraq.

On private property, people can pretty much do whatever they need to do.

Locally our reserves do not have to buy their own gear but may under certain circumstances use some of their own gear and weapons depending upon the agency. But it has to essentially be the same as whatever the police are using (liability issues, lawyers run everything).

So here the Minuteman will look like the police.

Because they will be.




Supposing we have true PAW and ROL has completely collapsed. The State has failed and the 247th President is trapped in the bunker missing her thumbs. In that case the militia will look like whatever is a available.
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by woodsghost » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:06 am

Elly is right. So is Flyby. Nice write-up Elly. Stercutus, great points.

Ok, 89, the best example of what you probably mean by "PAW" is seen in the Wild West. Or Somalia, today. In both situations you have people existing without a Federal or even a State level government. Only local government existed, and that might be elected or simply local strongmen. In the West you had local law enforcement and if they need to swell the ranks they deputized citizens. In the case of strongmen, you are either part of their stable of fighters or not. But human society is never really without Rule of Law for long. Maybe a few days, but usually not even that long. Local elements rise and assert some level of social control. Sometimes they are the vestiges of the former government. Sometimes they are the local criminal element (as often seen in the Balkans in the early '90s).

A vision of what you mean by "minute men" can probably be seen in Last of the Mohicans, where Hawkeye is saying Huron war parties are raiding cabins up and down the frontier and therefore the colonial militia needs to be released to defend their homes. Of course Duncan says he saw "nothing that would lead him to conclude it was anything other than thieves bent on savagery." I"m thinking "what a perfect definition of 'Huron War Party.' Thank you Duncan."

So in that context, lets say you and friends are in your neighborhood in some difficult situation. Police are likely 20-60 minuets away, possibly because communication is limited, possibly because they are on horseback. Bandits roll into town and you need to deal with them now. What is a "60 second readiness getup?" Lets say you are experiencing the local Janjaweed militia rolling into town. What does your response unit look like?

Probably 1 rifle, 3-4 mags, a bandoleer or chest rig or basic sack for the mags, a tourniquet, and an FRS radio.

This would probably be a group of citizen responders for any local emergency, so having some more substantial first aid supplies and some firefighting gear distributed between members of your group. Just my thoughts.
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by flybynight » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:31 am

Ellywick wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:16 am
Not to sound like I'm avoiding the topic, JF89, but I agree with Flybynight (gah, I have to figure out a way to shorten your handle, so long to type but Fly doesn't sound right and night makes you sound like an emo superhero/vigilante).

In almost any PAW scenario (with maybe the exception of all out nuclear war, but even then people in high places have bunkers to retreat to) the rule of law in the land would not immediately go out the door and the government would continue to try and function/take care of the issue, even if they did it poorly. This means that LEOs and the military would continue to do their jobs of trying to protect their people.

Even when/if things got so terrible that everything became "defend your own" or whatever, I still believe a lot of LEOs would continue to try and do their job. They are the most prepared and trained for the job of protecting people and enforcing order than anyone but military/ex-military and quite a few LEOs I know are also veterans. People can complain all they want about law enforcement officers being corrupt or soft or whatever, and they're human too and so are flawed and can make mistakes, but most of the LEOs I know take their job very seriously and have a lot of pride in it. Both of my grandfather's were LEOs and I know they would have carried on in some capacity doing their job, even if they maybe had to bring on other people to help.

Even everyone's darling, The Walking Dead, agrees with this. The group is led by a former police officer. I mean, the TV show won't be soon, but both Rick and Carl are still kicking in the comics, so I choose to ignore that fact.

Oh, and Mad Max is a former police officer as well (still is in the first movie- which is a great example of society tumbling towards a PAW, but not there yet).
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by flybynight » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:28 am

JF89 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:04 am
flybynight wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:47 am
I think modern day Minutemen would look most likely similar to like this

Image
I specified in a "In a post apocalyptic world (PAW)". There would be no cops around at that point.
“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”

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If the paw was so severe as to NOT have even the remainder of your towns police force. The load out would be whatever weapon you could find. Rifle, shotgun, pistol, shovel, stick or rock
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by MacWa77ace » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:31 am

What's the difference between an unauthorized militia, and an authorized militia?
I literally didn't know that there were laws against militias since they are in the 2nd amendment as a statement of existence [IMO]. https://libertyfight.wordpress.com/2009 ... _militias/

And you can find militia orgs online. http://www.flmilitia.org/

So 2 + 2 = illegal :shock:
These laws are seldom enforced, but they are relevant to an adjudicative determination that an individual is engaging in either lawful or unlawful militia activities.
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by NT2C » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:41 am

JF89 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:04 am
flybynight wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:47 am
I think modern day Minutemen would look most likely similar to like this

Image
I specified in a "In a post apocalyptic world (PAW)". There would be no cops around at that point.
I think FBN is pretty dead on. Ex-LEOs and military types, mostly armed with AR type long guns and 9mm pistols, using self-bought or old department/military issued tactical gear such as headgear, body armor, load bearing gear, early 40s to late 50s for the most part (young enough to have retired in the last decade and starting to put on the pounds and lose the muscle tone they once had, with maybe a few older guys who had longer careers and stayed in better shape), generally bored looking because they're vets and nothing much throws them in any situation and they know they're the second line troops now, not the point of the spear.
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by flybynight » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:46 am

Today, as defined by the Militia Act of 1903, the term "militia" is primarily used to describe two groups within the United States:
Organized militia – consisting of State militia forces; notably, the National Guard and Naval Militia.[8] (Note: the National Guard is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States.)
Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.[9]

There is a third militia that is widely unknown to most. This militia is called a state defense force.They are authorized by state and federal laws.[10]
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by JF89 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:35 pm

Again I wasnt looking for the definition of militia. In the context I was using it I meant armed citizens. Good answers to the question though. Some cops do have strong leadership skills but that dosnt mean only vets and cops would be in a towns militia. I like the TWD and all that but using hollywood as an example of anything is sketchy. I would rather use the actual militias and minutemen as an example of how it could be done.
Im not sure sure what everyones definition of "post apacolypse" is but basically no government. Lets say a few years after the shtf there would be small communities trying to rebuild and they would need security that very well could be lead by a cop or vet but they would most likely need back up and people to train. I dont know if people just are not familiar with the history of the MM and town militias.They were mostly made up citizens with some vets and they protected their own, literally citizen soldiers. I thought a forum with a name like "Zombie Hunter" or "Zombie Squad" or whatever would at least humor the idea minutemen in a PAW.
I know its unlikely that the government would fall but if it did I wouldnt be so quick to run to just any cop and ask for help, there is sour apples in those circles too.

Good responses so far, though. How long before gas runs out or goes bad? Do you see ATVs being used a lot or would horses most likely be the big thing for transportation?

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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by woodsghost » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:20 pm

We are humoring the idea. There is an issue of "centralized force structure" vs "decentalized force structure." The argument is that humans tend towards centralized force structures. Especially "years after a collapse event." The argument is "historically, centralized force structures arise." So then we have to ask " when would a decentralized force structure be needed and useful?"

Answer: when the cops or cavalry are too far away to respond in time. Same applies today and that is why many CCW. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

But why would the designated force of protectors take too long to respond? That needs to be answered.

If your force is only minutes away, a CCW might be all you need.

When they are an hour away, what threats are possible and what do you need to address that?

When they are several days away (because they are hunting bandits in the hills maybe?) what threats might arise and what do you need to address that?

Horses or ATVs? My money is on horses, in your scenario.

Oh, another good example of your MM being useful: you and your village are out in the crops, when the bandits roll in. Your designated security team intercepts while the vulnerable move to a secure location. In this case, your security gear needs to be worn and comfortable while working in fields of crops. This is basically a "citizen security team" and fits your needs.
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by Stercutus » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:14 pm

IME cops make terrible leaders by and large. They don't often function as a group and often when they do it is a decentralized command structure. This might be counter-intuitive but it is how it works. They are tightly regimented with a clear rule book too. This is good for a guard force.
I dont know if people just are not familiar with the history of the MM and town militias. They were mostly made up citizens with some vets and they protected their own, literally citizen soldiers.
The rose colored glasses of history alter our perception of the way things were and the world has moved on. In the 1790s all men in even a small city would typically know each other. They would know who the town drunk was and that man would be excluded and not trusted. Also the guy that did not go to church and the guy who had the wrong skin color would get the shit-burning jobs. The guy in charge of the watch would be rich. He would have to be in order to resource it. He would do this because he had the most to lose.

Not everyone wanted to serve. Therefore you had the Militia Act. We can make allowances for some people like women and the elderly but the free loaders have to do their part. Once the US switched from internal threats to external wars the Militia Act was seriously altered (now we get in to politics so I'll leave it at the doorstep).
Im not sure sure what everyones definition of "post apacolypse" is but basically no government. Lets say a few years after the shtf there would be small communities trying to rebuild
If communties are trying to rebuild you will definitely have government. Otherwise the community won't be able to try to rebuild. However even if the community is not trying to rebuild you will still have government. It may be completely broken such as Somolia but it will still be there.
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by JF89 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:35 pm

Makes sense. This conversation was meant more as a "what if" type of thing.

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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by moab » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:53 pm

Let the guy have his fantasy scenario. LMAO! Come on. You can't tell me this is any less hair brain that half the stuff we talk about around here. Can't we be a little more welcoming than that? :)

He wasn't asking who would be leading it. Or the validity of it happening. He was simply asking "how they might be outfitted". Bug out gear might be a better location for this. But I think we can do better. You guys obviously have a problem with anyone other than ex-military and cops being in charge. That wasn't even his question.

I'm ex-military. And I know we and cops know a hell of a lot more than the general citizenry - about this type of scenario. And yes, I'm sure we would be put in charge.

But for sake of argument. Just say the government and LE are shut down. It's everyman or town for itself. Or maybe you don't even have a town. You and others have moved on. And found yourself at an unknown location. How would you outfit yourself and others? It's really a simple question. Getting muddy'd up by what he specifically asked us not to comment on.

My take?

I think the simple answer to your question is they should be outfitted with the closest combat gear to their given task. Which could be any number of things. (No they wouldn't be walking around in blue polyester uniforms. Camo would be preferable for their given locale.) But generally. You'd want a combat loadout. With light armor. Semi auto rifle and pistol. Good boots. First aid kits. Gun cleaning kits. Comms. Good 4x4 vehicles if you can find them. Food - mre's, dried food what have you. Water. A light pack for patrolling. a larger pack if your on the move. To hold shelter, clothing and other essentials.

That's just off the top of my head. Others may chime in. I hope they do. This is - if nothing else - an interesting exercise. I think this kid (forgive me if your not young. But I do know your new to here. And we appreciate your participation.) just wants to fit in here. And has some questions that are interesting to him. Let's not run him off with "That's a stupid question!". ? It's no more stupid than half the other crap we talk about on here.

And we're wondering why membership is down around here?! lol. Come on. Humor the guy. Or don't participate in his valid question. This is a "what if" question. don't make the guy feel bad for asking a question.
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by woodsghost » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:48 pm

Dead on Moab!

And I, for one, have been having a good time with this.
JF89 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:35 pm
Makes sense. This conversation was meant more as a "what if" type of thing.
METT-T: Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Troops, Time.

Mission: defend those you love and care about. Or just those who are local. Defend them from the various things which harm them.

Enemy: In my mind, as I stated above, this includes Johnny getting bit by a snake, Sarah's ill advised (and temporary) fling looking to express his irritation with the townsfolk with vitamin lead, Amanda's out of control fire, and the local Janjaweed looking to loot and scoot. Or loot and stay.

Terrain: Physically, it makes sense to me if people cluster so they are physically close and come to one another's aid. If people are spread over 100 square miles, they can be radioed for help, but even on ATVs would take a lot of time to come to the aid of anyone. Close physical proximity means quick responses. And the terrain can be shaped ahead of time to make medial aid or armed defense more feasible.

Troops: I"m going to ignore the word "minutemen" because it carries a lot of baggage. But who will be the force? Those who volunteer. Likely a mix of male and female, tending towards males. Since this is years into an unknown event which caused the breakdown of all but local government, it is probable you all have known each other for a year or more, and have been practicing things like responses to bad guys and responses to fires. This is basically your volunteer "oh shit" team. You probably have a full time person to deal with these issues, but as an organization you need flexible resources, and those resources will not be the best. They will hopefully be adequate. But no groups can manage to have a bunch of SEALS who are also farmers who are also family supporters who are also entertainers who are also administrators who are also plumbers who are also....everything else the town needs. These will be people with a life, and a main purpose other than fighting and rescuing. Hopefully, they do take those jobs seriously. But some will only be there for the extra privileges which might come with membership, or might simply not be up to the task of emergency management. Life is full of imperfect people, and they are failure points. Oh well, you use the army you got, not the army you with you had.

Time: Again, you want as fast a response as possible. People might want to disperse to achieve privacy or simply not like being near other people. Well, people make their own choices and choose their own risk levels. Distance increases time to response, and that increases the severity of any emergency when help finally arrives.

In the Wiki article on METT-T, they call attention to a C, for "Civilian impact." I"m going to ignore that and put my own C in there, C for "Cost." Anyone who is on the PAW "oh shit" team is probably self-funding. Resources in a town or village can probably be pooled to some extent (taxes), but that will only go so far. Honestly, I think you either plan to outfit all your friends on your own, or plan on them having some real gaps in their equipment. So back to what I'd said above, I think a rifle, some mags, a mag carrier, some first aid supplies, and a radio are about the best one can hope for if assembling a volunteer force. I think something resembling Afghan militia will work. They are already living in a PAW and that gear setup seems to be working out well enough for them. Don't fix what ain't broke.

Oh, and don't forget some tire sandals. Every militia needs those.
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*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

JF89
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by JF89 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:15 pm

moab wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:53 pm
Let the guy have his fantasy scenario. LMAO! Come on. You can't tell me this is any less hair brain that half the stuff we talk about around here. Can't we be a little more welcoming than that? :)

He wasn't asking who would be leading it. Or the validity of it happening. He was simply asking "how they might be outfitted". Bug out gear might be a better location for this. But I think we can do better. You guys obviously have a problem with anyone other than ex-military and cops being in charge. That wasn't even his question.

I'm ex-military. And I know we and cops know a hell of a lot more than the general citizenry - about this type of scenario. And yes, I'm sure we would be put in charge.

But for sake of argument. Just say the government and LE are shut down. It's everyman or town for itself. Or maybe you don't even have a town. You and others have moved on. And found yourself at an unknown location. How would you outfit yourself and others? It's really a simple question. Getting muddy'd up by what he specifically asked us not to comment on.

My take?

I think the simple answer to your question is they should be outfitted with the closest combat gear to their given task. Which could be any number of things. (No they wouldn't be walking around in blue polyester uniforms. Camo would be preferable for their given locale.) But generally. You'd want a combat loadout. With light armor. Semi auto rifle and pistol. Good boots. First aid kits. Gun cleaning kits. Comms. Good 4x4 vehicles if you can find them. Food - mre's, dried food what have you. Water. A light pack for patrolling. a larger pack if your on the move. To hold shelter, clothing and other essentials.

That's just off the top of my head. Others may chime in. I hope they do. This is - if nothing else - an interesting exercise. I think this kid (forgive me if your not young. But I do know your new to here. And we appreciate your participation.) just wants to fit in here. And has some questions that are interesting to him. Let's not run him off with "That's a stupid question!". ? It's no more stupid than half the other crap we talk about on here.

And we're wondering why membership is down around here?! lol. Come on. Humor the guy. Or don't participate in his valid question. This is a "what if" question. don't make the guy feel bad for asking a question.
Well, thank you. Too be fair, there are some pretty good responses and yea im 28 years old so im probably a young buck compared to some of you more "seasoned" fellers.
Honestly this question wasnt supposed to be super serious just general conversation.

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mace
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Location: Arizona

Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by mace » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:18 pm

We I Know for a fact that the sheriff department here has their own prepper group. A few years ago I was putting bobs together for my brothers when I ran in to a recently retired deputy that I had met a few times over the years and when he saw what I had in my cart he asked what I was up to so I told him . He advised me that he was part of a group made up of several deputies and ems personnel they even had a doctor in the group . I was hoping to get invited since my brother was in the sheriff posse at he time.

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Stercutus
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Re: Minutemen groups in A PAW

Post by Stercutus » Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:47 am

A preparedness group is very different than a Minuteman Group.

Part of the reason it started getting bumpy is because often these topics turn into a free for all; "No government, what type of illegal stuff can we now do?" Then the thread gets locked and everyone gets a sad.
These days of dust
Which we've known
Will blow away with this new Son

But I'll kneel down wait for now
And I'll kneel down
Know my ground

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