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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Yea and if you think I'm going to believe American born citizens are being detained at borders because of skin color or ethnic heritage as standard operating procedure. You need to set down the pipe. Bless your heart

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:37 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:56 am 
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Sun Yeti wrote:
Recently, an American born, American citizen, traveling with a US passport, who works for JPL (a NASA contractor) was detained at an airport coming back into the US and not allowed to leave until he unlocked his phone for them so they could copy over the information and look at his accounts. This was something he was specifically forbidden from doing by his employer, because it was a JPL issued phone which contained sensitive data.
---snip----


So a long time friend who has been at JPL for over 20 years told me this -

The employee in the article was an idiot.

The employee in the article was not supposed to take his phone out of the country. (he had no permission to do so)

Official NASA/JPL policy is: give the damned NASA/JPL phone and the password to the nice Federal Government man from the TSA and then just STFU.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:07 pm 
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teotwaki wrote:
Sun Yeti wrote:
Recently, an American born, American citizen, traveling with a US passport, who works for JPL (a NASA contractor) was detained at an airport coming back into the US and not allowed to leave until he unlocked his phone for them so they could copy over the information and look at his accounts. This was something he was specifically forbidden from doing by his employer, because it was a JPL issued phone which contained sensitive data.
---snip----


So a long time friend who has been at JPL for over 20 years told me this -

The employee in the article was an idiot.

The employee in the article was not supposed to take his phone out of the country. (he had no permission to do so)

Official NASA/JPL policy is: give the damned NASA/JPL phone and the password to the nice Federal Government man from the TSA and then just STFU.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Sun Yeti wrote:
As a small businessperson, if I don't answer emails promptly I can lose business. But on reflection, I would rather lose hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of business than have my life turned upside down (or have to surrender all my personal info). And, it really looks like this is heading toward SOP at the border with certain groups of citizens.

So, on reflection, I guess I will take a burner phone next time I travel internationally and set an email autoreply and hope some of my more impatient customers can wait.


It's a balancing act. If you wanted to continue to have email access, you can set up the burner phone to use only web based email and set the browser to clear the cache (files, cookies, history, downloads) upon exit. It's probably a good idea anyway to reduce your risks of exposing business data in case the phone is compromised. Overly nosy customs agents aren't the only risk. You can also establish a VPN server to defeat femtocells and Wi-Fi hacks, install anti-virus and deleted file over writers against more technically sophisticated threats, delete/disable unnecessary and overly intrusive apps to eliminate possible back doors, disable the camera (remove or drill and fill) for the same reason. High speed / low drag travel or business smart phone.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:05 pm 
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Close_enough wrote:
It's a balancing act. If you wanted to continue to have email access, you can set up the burner phone to use only web based email and set the browser to clear the cache (files, cookies, history, downloads) upon exit. It's probably a good idea anyway to reduce your risks of exposing business data in case the phone is compromised. Overly nosy customs agents aren't the only risk. You can also establish a VPN server to defeat femtocells and Wi-Fi hacks, install anti-virus and deleted file over writers against more technically sophisticated threats, delete/disable unnecessary and overly intrusive apps to eliminate possible back doors, disable the camera (remove or drill and fill) for the same reason. High speed / low drag travel or business smart phone.
+1! 8-)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:51 pm 
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My understanding is that for Android phones, it's encrypt-then-factory-reset if you really want the data as gone as possible. Factory reset only will leave data that can still be read by someone who knows what they're doing. Apparently encryption can take a while & should be done ahead of time with phone plugged in. I'm in the process of investing in travel phones as well, partly to take advantage of better cell phone plans while travelling.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:09 pm 
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duodecima wrote:
My understanding is that for Android phones, it's encrypt-then-factory-reset if you really want the data as gone as possible. Factory reset only will leave data that can still be read by someone who knows what they're doing. Apparently encryption can take a while & should be done ahead of time with phone plugged in. I'm in the process of investing in travel phones as well, partly to take advantage of better cell phone plans while travelling.
I have an Android. If you did not encrypt (Passphrase instead of PIN) right out of the box, then I was told to do a hard factory reset, encrypt with passphrase, & then DL apps. If you need to wipe you phone, then you should delete your most sensitive apps manually first, lock, restart, then a HFR to wipe. I know, real involved. I have a smartphone, but I just use it as a phone. I am looking for a flip that I can email, and have all the emergency alerts possible. Really, this is what I was told & I am looking to get out of using a smartphone. I just need comm. What are good flip phones?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:26 am 
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I'm going to say this as politely as possible. These "wipe apps" are far from perfect and most are crap. Wipe your phone and hand it to me with the proper set of recovery tools and the whole phone is back to normal and I'm looking at your photos and accounts. You need to do several zero out processes on the digital media. Several being anywhere from 7-20 times as tools get more and more sophisticated the more zeroing out processes you will need to do. Then smash it into a million pieces with a 5# sledge. Now it's a challenge to recover which may only produce data fragments.

Burner phone is your best bet and do NOT access any private accounts from it. No gmail, no hangouts, no banking, no amazon, no ZS login :). Texting and phone calls only and minimize the number of people you call plus there is no need to store them in a contacts list.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:28 am 
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NamelessStain wrote:
I'm going to say this as politely as possible. These "wipe apps" are far from perfect and most are crap. Wipe your phone and hand it to me with the proper set of recovery tools and the whole phone is back to normal and I'm looking at your photos and accounts. You need to do several zero out processes on the digital media. Several being anywhere from 7-20 times as tools get more and more sophisticated the more zeroing out processes you will need to do. Then smash it into a million pieces with a 5# sledge. Now it's a challenge to recover which may only produce data fragments.

Burner phone is your best bet and do NOT access any private accounts from it. No gmail, no hangouts, no banking, no amazon, no ZS login :). Texting and phone calls only and minimize the number of people you call plus there is no need to store them in a contacts list.


By "wipe apps" do you mean doing a factory reset, or something different? (And thanks, btw)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:20 pm 
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duodecima wrote:
NamelessStain wrote:
I'm going to say this as politely as possible. These "wipe apps" are far from perfect and most are crap. Wipe your phone and hand it to me with the proper set of recovery tools and the whole phone is back to normal and I'm looking at your photos and accounts. You need to do several zero out processes on the digital media. Several being anywhere from 7-20 times as tools get more and more sophisticated the more zeroing out processes you will need to do. Then smash it into a million pieces with a 5# sledge. Now it's a challenge to recover which may only produce data fragments.

Burner phone is your best bet and do NOT access any private accounts from it. No gmail, no hangouts, no banking, no amazon, no ZS login :). Texting and phone calls only and minimize the number of people you call plus there is no need to store them in a contacts list.


By "wipe apps" do you mean doing a factory reset, or something different? (And thanks, btw)


Deleting a file doesn't erase it, it just designates the memory it occupied as being available for writing. A wipe app deletes the target files, fills all available memory with temporary files, and then erases the temporary files. Theoretically, it changes the memory where the target file use to be to make it unrecoverable. I'm not familiar with how recovery software works, but the more rewrites you bury the file under, the harder it is to recover. Completely erasing the file requires physical destruction of the memory or degaussing it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:38 am 
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Close_enough wrote:
Deleting a file doesn't erase it, it just designates the memory it occupied as being available for writing. A wipe app deletes the target files, fills all available memory with temporary files, and then erases the temporary files. Theoretically, it changes the memory where the target file use to be to make it unrecoverable. I'm not familiar with how recovery software works, but the more rewrites you bury the file under, the harder it is to recover. Completely erasing the file requires physical destruction of the memory or degaussing it.



You sir/madam, get a gold star and +10 Internets. You explained it quite well.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:19 am 
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Close_enough wrote:
duodecima wrote:
NamelessStain wrote:
I'm going to say this as politely as possible. These "wipe apps" are far from perfect and most are crap. Wipe your phone and hand it to me with the proper set of recovery tools and the whole phone is back to normal and I'm looking at your photos and accounts. You need to do several zero out processes on the digital media. Several being anywhere from 7-20 times as tools get more and more sophisticated the more zeroing out processes you will need to do. Then smash it into a million pieces with a 5# sledge. Now it's a challenge to recover which may only produce data fragments.

Burner phone is your best bet and do NOT access any private accounts from it. No gmail, no hangouts, no banking, no amazon, no ZS login :). Texting and phone calls only and minimize the number of people you call plus there is no need to store them in a contacts list.


By "wipe apps" do you mean doing a factory reset, or something different? (And thanks, btw)


Deleting a file doesn't erase it, it just designates the memory it occupied as being available for writing. A wipe app deletes the target files, fills all available memory with temporary files, and then erases the temporary files. Theoretically, it changes the memory where the target file use to be to make it unrecoverable. I'm not familiar with how recovery software works, but the more rewrites you bury the file under, the harder it is to recover. Completely erasing the file requires physical destruction of the memory or degaussing it.


That's why I burn my phones in a fire when replacing them. There's no telling what some clever criminal could recover from a trashed phone.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:47 pm 
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My company does a ton of work for the oil industry. We have easy to use apps that make data transfer fairly secure through our phones. Engineers and other key people often must be able to be reached while they travel, and they must have remote access to sensitive data. The issue in the original article is a legitimate concern to many of my co-workers. Not only is there very valuable data accessible through phones, but it could potentially be dangerous as well. Allowing government agents access without warrants is a frightening legal gray area for us and a lot of discussion is had over this.

My company says do what you feel you have to in order to protect yourself, and we'll back you up afterwards if a client flips out over something.

The legal articles I have read recently on the issue indicate that while your 4th amendment rights are waived at the border, your 5th amendment rights are not. They can take and physically examine your electronics, but they cannot make you give them any passwords (assuming you are a US citizen). If they have the means available on hand they can try to hack your electronics, but they still cannot hold you for refusing to give your passwords.

The Supreme Court has ruled that standing up for your legal rights is not a cause for suspicion and cannot be used to hold you.

How many people can really afford to fight that though? Is it worth fighting? How many people really have anything on their phone they fear an officer seeing? Even with my industry's security concerns, what are the odds the exact apps and access into secure data (which is remotely accessed via several layers of passwords, not on the phone itself) will be accessed?

So far my company and clients have only had people with darker skin color harrassed at the border (yes, we are actively tracking this and I am speaking of quantifiable numbers, this has been a very abrupt shift recently and is now impacting who we choose to send on some trips) and I'm as Nordic looking as anyone can be. So it's unlikely I'll be harrassed. But if I am, I've decided to politely hold my ground as an act of protest. I don't have kids, or even pets to take care of. I'm financially stable. I can afford to make that stand when so few others can. And I can calmly and politely tell the officers that I am happy to stir up tons of paperwork for them as an act of protest.

Unless I'm traveling with someone that has kids. That changes things for me.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Working at an airport I've become good friends with lots of the LEOs and the CBP guys. The CBP guys have felt emboldened recently (not going to get into politics), and have talked about detaining people (which is within their right to do so) so they can check phones, and other devices. They did say they can only hold for a few hours regardless or national origin, and worst thing they can do is send the person bag. However if you are a US citizen they cannot hold you more than a few hours, you do not have to give them any sort of information to access your devices. If they can hack the phone than they can look at it, but they will eventually have to let you go. So depending on how stubborn you want to be, just sit there. You will be released eventually usually in a couple hours.

That said, with recent laws being signed and other things I would consider setting up a VPN and keeping everything encrypted.

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