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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:57 pm 
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A passenger, for no apparent reason, became violent and attacked the crew and other passengers on a Vietnam to Korea flight. The crew and passengers managed to tie him to his seat, but didn't know how to do it properly and he kept escaping.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... 41?cid=msn

Most of us carry paracord as part of out travel preps, but I don't know of anybody who is proficient in Hojo-Jutsu or Torinawa techniques.

So, how do you effectively tie somebody up who is combative?

Besides duct tape, that is.

My total knowledge of restraining knots consists of ABoK 1134 (Handcuff knot) and films I've seen of WWII POWs of the Japanese.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:41 pm 
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It's my understanding most airliners carry flexi-cuffs.

Never did care to find out.

Otherwise... I guess practice your rope skills? Could be fun with the right "practice" partner...


Alternately, if you take a regular leather belt, shove a loop through the buckle, insert hands through the inner loop, and tighten, the friction keeps it tight. Will try and take a pic later to demonstrate.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:18 pm 
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T-shirt choke him.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:22 pm 
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I can knock out boatswain's cuffs pretty quick with para-cord, and they work MUCH better then than Handcuff knot from ABoK. Its my understanding that one (ABoK 1134) was used more for dragging someone unconscious than actual restraint.
Boatswains cuffs employ prusik knot(s) to tighten and hold. If you play around with it, be sure to have someone, or a knife nearby. Keep in mind this is only 1 part of what you need to do. Tie the shoes together (Laces) him to the seat (Couple belts) Restrain the arms/legs more belts/paracord? Dont buy the shovel / lime / bags at the same time, it's suspicious... opps... I mean... Nothing to see here folks... :crazy:



Ninja Edit: I usually make mine with a few extra loops in the prusik...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:34 am 
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Put him in the seat and put the middle seat at the bulkhead so that there are no seats in front of him. Seat belt him in place.

If you have no cord, duct tape or flexicuffs, use belts to secure his arms to the arm rests.
Put two of the biggest passengers in the aisle seats next to him to restrain him. Put a blanket or a coat over his hear so he cannot spit or see.

The flight to the nearest airport will seem very long.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:47 am 
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They probably didn't have anything as effective as paracord.

I could easily tie someone down pretty well with a minimal amount of paracord. My greater concern is if I could do it without risking injury to them. If I'm tying paracord tight enough that they're not escaping, there's blood circulation getting restricted to hands and possibly feet. That will eventually cause harm if it takes too long to get the authorities involved. I have no idea how long it would take, but it's a possible legal concern.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:41 am 
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I'd think that belts and neckties would make safer restraints than paracord. There's no reason you can't tie ABOK 1134 or SCBrian's boatswain's cuffs with a necktie.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:39 am 
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Assuming you have enough bodies to control him/her-

Strip subject down to his/her underwear.* Cut/tear the clothing off if necessary.
Use tube of super glue to glue their arms to their sides and the palm of their hands to their thighs, and glue their bare legs together after crossing them.

Then seatbelt them in.
Restrain** the urge to super glue their lips together if they become loud and bothersome.
Under no circumstances give into the urge pinch their nose closed after putting a drop of super glue in each nostril. :crazy:




*Seriously. You have no idea what they may or may not have hidden in or underneath their clothing.

**Pun intended.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:12 am 
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I would be less interested in the aggressive individual's well being and just strike him until he stopped moving. Once he is "asleep" I would just improvise whatever I had around.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:28 am 
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I'd probably end up tying them to stuff. At the worst I'd end up tying them to themselves, which is probably torture.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:02 pm 
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RoneKiln wrote:
They probably didn't have anything as effective as paracord.


Look at the pictures on TMJ4. You can see both a 26 series Taser and what looks like 1/2" diameter plain laid polyester/nylon rope. So, no lack of materials.

In the original article on nydailynews.com, the big problem was he kept slipping his bonds in the three hours it took to get on the ground. Perhaps I should have qualified my original question about tying somebody up who is being combative with how do you tie somebody up, who is being combative, so they STAY tied up.

http://www.tmj4.com/news/national/singe ... -passenger
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:07 pm 
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Close_enough wrote:
Perhaps I should have qualified my original question about tying somebody up who is being combative with how do you tie somebody up, who is being combative, so they STAY tied up.

http://www.tmj4.com/news/national/singe ... -passenger
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Hog tie them.
Have one person keep a foot planted on them and beat the everliving crap out of him every time he moves.

Still having problems? Warn him that you'll do this if he keeps it up and if he keeps trying to get loose break his arms and legs.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:48 pm 
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I bet Rick Springfield could have kept him down. He kicked ass in High Tide.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:01 pm 
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SCBrian wrote:
I can knock out boatswain's cuffs pretty quick with para-cord, and they work MUCH better then than Handcuff knot from ABoK. Its my understanding that one (ABoK 1134) was used more for dragging someone unconscious than actual restraint.
Boatswains cuffs employ prusik knot(s) to tighten and hold. If you play around with it, be sure to have someone, or a knife nearby.

Ninja Edit: I usually make mine with a few extra loops in the prusik...


I found a similar knot where both wrist loops entered on the same side of the prussic loop. It would seem that any slide and grip hitch suitable for an ascender (icicle hitch, klemheist, etc.) would do a good job of locking the wrist loops closed.

A derp moment: I forgot about my copy of Fairbairn's "Get Tough". Illustrations 94-105 detail how to tie up a prisoner using a modified highwayman's hitch.
Hands behind the back.
Tie the hitch around one wrist and throw the second bight over the opposite wrist.
Pull tight and double half hitch (clove hitch?) the tail around the standing part.
Run the standing part up around the neck and back down with a full turn over the wrists.
Draw the ankles up and repeat the highwayman's hitch around the ankles.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:09 am 
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I'd start with the seat belts the flight attendants use to demonstrate their proper use in the preflight brief. Three or four of them would probably do the trick.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:55 am 
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Close_enough wrote:

A derp moment: I forgot about my copy of Fairbairn's "Get Tough". Illustrations 94-105 detail how to tie up a prisoner using a modified highwayman's hitch.
Hands behind the back.
Tie the hitch around one wrist and throw the second bight over the opposite wrist.
Pull tight and double half hitch (clove hitch?) the tail around the standing part.
Run the standing part up around the neck and back down with a full turn over the wrists.
Draw the ankles up and repeat the highwayman's hitch around the ankles.


Careful with this, as if the way you describe it is correct, you're hogtying the person with a loop around the neck. A leg cramp would kill them. If you are going to effectively perform a 'citizens arrest' and restrain the person, you are also responsible for their well being. You'll do some time in jail for killing someone who was only having a psychiatric episode or a reaction from an Ambien blackout...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:41 pm 
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Tie a non cinching knot from a seatbelt strap around his neck and slide it back between the seats.

Make sure he can't get his head out of the loop but it isn't choking him.

Pull his head all the way down to the seat cushion.

Attach it to a seat post near the floor.

You'd be a tough sumbitch to break or tear apart a seatbelt.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:49 pm 
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SCBrian wrote:
Close_enough wrote:

A derp moment: I forgot about my copy of Fairbairn's "Get Tough". Illustrations 94-105 detail how to tie up a prisoner using a modified highwayman's hitch.
Hands behind the back.
Tie the hitch around one wrist and throw the second bight over the opposite wrist.
Pull tight and double half hitch (clove hitch?) the tail around the standing part.
Run the standing part up around the neck and back down with a full turn over the wrists.
Draw the ankles up and repeat the highwayman's hitch around the ankles.


Careful with this, as if the way you describe it is correct, you're hogtying the person with a loop around the neck. A leg cramp would kill them. If you are going to effectively perform a 'citizens arrest' and restrain the person, you are also responsible for their well being. You'll do some time in jail for killing someone who was only having a psychiatric episode or a reaction from an Ambien blackout...


That's the problem with a lot of use of force stuff. Anything effective enough to restrain/subdue somebody who is out of their mind also has the potential to cause serious harm to them. Strokes and heart attacks following the stress of getting Tasered or sprayed with OC comes to mind.

I know that there are other techniques, but I have no idea how they're supposed to be performed. Most of the stuff on the web leads to Fifty Shades of Gray weirdness.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:52 pm 
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A couple of things to bear in mind.

A seat belt is a great restrain. Airline seat belts can be secured closed by using a small cord to the tie down the latch which has to lift up to open. Tie that down and honk the belt tight and he/she is not going anywhere. That said they can spit and flail their arms and undo knots.

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Whihc brings me to the second points all airlines have the above seat belt extenders whihc they use for obese passengers as well as pre-flight demonstrations. These can be used as arm restraints by putting the person' s arm on the seat arm, latching the seat belt and tightening it down.

Though honestly I would rather use duct tape.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:41 pm 
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The taser will do a number on him if she hit him. If the assailant continues to struggle and fight they can keep getting zapped with more presses of the switch until the battery runs dry (about 20 rides on a fully charged taser). The most i have ever heard of anyone taking was 15 zaps and he was all done. That one is not armed though and has no cartridge in it. It is not expended either unless she shot it and removed the empty cartridge.

The way she is holding it now (empty) is not the best. This is probably a training issue.

Hasty restraints are only useful in that they require someone to watch the person to keep them from working their way free. Unless they are designed and proven to work (hand cuffs, shackles etc) they are a temporary measure at best. Even zip cuffs are fairly easily defeated.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:16 pm 
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Please don't, for the love of God use a spray inside an aircraft. Especially not while it's in the air. :ooh:



Close_enough wrote:
SCBrian wrote:
Close_enough wrote:


That's the problem with a lot of use of force stuff. Anything effective enough to restrain/subdue somebody who is out of their mind also has the potential to cause serious harm to them. Strokes and heart attacks following the stress of getting Tasered or sprayed with OC comes to mind.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:57 pm 
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On their knees, wrist belted behind them, ankles crossed and belted.
Additional belt connected to wrists, and passed between legs held by someone who lacks both patience and sense of humor.
Its an airplane, adequate supervision should be available and its not like you have much else to do.
Any signs of resistance and a small pull will result in a face full of deck - position of imbalance.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:32 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:03 pm 
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raptor wrote:
A couple of things to bear in mind.

A seat belt is a great restrain. Airline seat belts can be secured closed by using a small cord to the tie down the latch which has to lift up to open. Tie that down and honk the belt tight and he/she is not going anywhere. That said they can spit and flail their arms and undo knots.
...
Though honestly I would rather use duct tape.


I like the seat belt idea, but its apparently fairly easy to get out of duct tape and zip ties.
https://youtu.be/AyNPvj0iAqc
******************************************************************************
Stercutus wrote:
... That one is not armed though and has no cartridge in it. It is not expended either unless she shot it and removed the empty cartridge.

The way she is holding it now (empty) is not the best. This is probably a training issue.

That corresponds to the tweet following the incident criticizing the lack of training.

Stercutus wrote:
Hasty restraints are only useful in that they require someone to watch the person to keep them from working their way free.

If the airline had proper restraints, I wouldn't have asked the question.
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SRO1911 wrote:
On their knees, wrist belted behind them, ankles crossed and belted.
Additional belt connected to wrists, and passed between legs held by someone who lacks both patience and sense of humor.
Its an airplane, adequate supervision should be available and its not like you have much else to do.
Any signs of resistance and a small pull will result in a face full of deck - position of imbalance.


I've seen similar with hands tied at back of belt, the cord encircling the body at the belt, and a line running down from the front of the belt, around the right ankle, and to the captor. One hard yank, and captive goes face down.


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