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Russians 'annex' Alaska!
Shelter in place ~ try to go unnoticed and remain neutral. 15%  15%  [ 3 ]
Get the Hell out of Dodge! ~ I've heard Yukon Territory is nice this time of year. 20%  20%  [ 4 ]
Actively resist ~ remember the original Red Dawn? I always liked that movie. 65%  65%  [ 13 ]
Actively assist ~ I speak Russian and maybe they let me keep this AK-74 they gave me. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 20
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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:02 pm 
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I love how this thread went from how to fight off a hypothetical Russian invasion to what to do if you find an old government supply cache. :lol:

On topic, I live in Texas and given the high number of gun owners in my state, any kind of invasion be it foreign or domestic would be met with a large amount of force. Especially in the rural areas.

There's a saying here in Texas about the population and how many of us are armed. Last version I heard was 30 million Texans and about 26 million or so are armed. Wouldn't be too hard to find a bunch of heavily armed country boys looking for an excuse to fight in my AO. Hell, all it'd take is one post on Facebook and one could raise a small army to fight the invaders.

That said, I have no fantasies about my ability to fight back against an invasion. I know I'd be dead within the first wave or two, but I'd owe it to my family to resist as long as I could so they could get to a safer area. Sure I'd be dead, but I'd at least hope I could take a few of the invaders with me when I died.

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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:40 pm 
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Nope, first there was the soup.

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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
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I think most Texas boys, and most boys everywhere, would lose their tase for fighting after seeing it up close for a few weeks. And most people I know are not in good enough shape to fight anything, except maybe a buffet. If fighting is anything like paintball, it will take it out of you after three days straight. Even 8 hours can be tough unless you train for it and work out. Even most farm boys I know are done after 6-8 hours of paintball.

But maybe I don't know a representative sample of people.

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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:34 pm 
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woodsghost wrote:
I think most Texas boys, and most boys everywhere, would lose their tase for fighting after seeing it up close for a few weeks. And most people I know are not in good enough shape to fight anything, except maybe a buffet. If fighting is anything like paintball, it will take it out of you after three days straight. Even 8 hours can be tough unless you train for it and work out. Even most farm boys I know are done after 6-8 hours of paintball.

But maybe I don't know a representative sample of people.


Since I am not a warfighter it would be a miracle that I last more than 3 days.

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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:06 pm 
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teotwaki wrote:
Since I am not a warfighter it would be a miracle that I last more than 3 days.


I have 10+ years in the Army. I am not a combat veteran, but I am an era veteran. I can remember how serious everything got when Saddam invaded Kuwait. Everything changed, instantly. I was a medic for a light infantry unit. All of the support we had, just going to the field. Just all of the support we had for one measly battalion. You don't see all of the support layers when you watch Red Dawn. Effective civilian resistance is a given, just not without some kind of support.

TacAir, what is AK self-sufficient in? Other than oil, what does it produce?

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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:11 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
Nope, first there was the soup.


Come for the invasion, stay for the soup :awesome:


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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:46 pm 
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teotwaki wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
I think most Texas boys, and most boys everywhere, would lose their tase for fighting after seeing it up close for a few weeks. And most people I know are not in good enough shape to fight anything, except maybe a buffet. If fighting is anything like paintball, it will take it out of you after three days straight. Even 8 hours can be tough unless you train for it and work out. Even most farm boys I know are done after 6-8 hours of paintball.

But maybe I don't know a representative sample of people.


Since I am not a warfighter it would be a miracle that I last more than 3 days.


Well said by both.

As I stated I have no illusion of my effectiveness, longevity and usefulness in such a situation. That said my lack of effectiveness not would be the result of a lack of effort or an unwillingness to try to be effective. I would view any positive impact I would have as reducing the load that other more effective folks would have to bear.

That would be adequate for me to accept whatever outcome may occur.

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
On topic, I live in Texas and given the high number of gun owners in my state, any kind of invasion be it foreign or domestic would be met with a large amount of force. Especially in the rural areas.

There's a saying here in Texas about the population and how many of us are armed. Last version I heard was 30 million Texans and about 26 million or so are armed. Wouldn't be too hard to find a bunch of heavily armed country boys looking for an excuse to fight in my AO. Hell, all it'd take is one post on Facebook and one could raise a small army to fight the invaders.


One of the reasons I sleep well at night is knowing that the Texans have my left flank, MS/AL have my right flank, while Tennessee and Oklahoma are keeping eye on Arkansas and Missouri. :clownshoes: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:47 pm 
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raptor wrote:
teotwaki wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
I think most Texas boys, and most boys everywhere, would lose their tase for fighting after seeing it up close for a few weeks. And most people I know are not in good enough shape to fight anything, except maybe a buffet. If fighting is anything like paintball, it will take it out of you after three days straight. Even 8 hours can be tough unless you train for it and work out. Even most farm boys I know are done after 6-8 hours of paintball.

But maybe I don't know a representative sample of people.


Since I am not a warfighter it would be a miracle that I last more than 3 days.


Well said by both.

As I stated I have no illusion of my effectiveness, longevity and usefulness in such a situation. That said my lack of effectiveness not would be the result of a lack of effort or an unwillingness to try to be effective. I would view any positive impact I would have as reducing the load that other more effective folks would have to bear.

That would be adequate for me to accept whatever outcome may occur.

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
On topic, I live in Texas and given the high number of gun owners in my state, any kind of invasion be it foreign or domestic would be met with a large amount of force. Especially in the rural areas.

There's a saying here in Texas about the population and how many of us are armed. Last version I heard was 30 million Texans and about 26 million or so are armed. Wouldn't be too hard to find a bunch of heavily armed country boys looking for an excuse to fight in my AO. Hell, all it'd take is one post on Facebook and one could raise a small army to fight the invaders.


One of the reasons I sleep well at night is knowing that the Texans have my left flank, MS/AL have my right flank, while Tennessee and Oklahoma are keeping eye on Arkansas and Missouri. :clownshoes: :lol:


This is such a well accepted meme that movies (Red Dawn) take it as a given.

My book Fisher People also uses this meme as well. Well, that and that a lot of former tread-heads live in Texas.....

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:31 am 
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teotwaki wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
I think most Texas boys, and most boys everywhere, would lose their tase for fighting after seeing it up close for a few weeks. And most people I know are not in good enough shape to fight anything, except maybe a buffet. If fighting is anything like paintball, it will take it out of you after three days straight. Even 8 hours can be tough unless you train for it and work out. Even most farm boys I know are done after 6-8 hours of paintball.

But maybe I don't know a representative sample of people.


Since I am not a warfighter it would be a miracle that I last more than 3 days.

So what changed since 1940? All those European countries that the Axis powers conquered had active resistance fighters for years . Resistance isn't about confronting the enemy. It's the shot in the dark, The sabotage of train tracks. The radio call reporting troop movements. It's not a run to battle so much as a walk to ambush.

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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
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As with anything in life, especially when facing undaunting tasks that are far beyond the control of an individual or a small group of individuals with limited resources:

Do what you can, when you can, where you are with what you have.

It may not seem like enough, but it helps.

I've always thought of this mantra in terms of poverty and addiction, but I do think it applies here.

Flybynight, you bring up an excellent point about the resistance in WWII. If I remember my history correctly, Operation Overlord would not have benn possible without Intel from the French. And Operation Market Garden would not have failed if Montgomery had believed the Dutch resistance about the SS Panzer division that they said had (and did) move into Aarnhem on the eve of the attack.

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MPMalloy wrote:
TacAir, what is AK self-sufficient in? Other than oil, what does it produce?


You got me curious enough to go look...

Alaska's main export product after oil and natural gas is seafood, primarily salmon, cod, Pollock and crab. Agriculture represents only a fraction of the Alaskan economy. Agricultural production is primarily for consumption within the state and includes nursery stock, dairy products, vegetables, and livestock

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flybynight wrote:
So what changed since 1940? All those European countries that the Axis powers conquered had active resistance fighters for years . Resistance isn't about confronting the enemy. It's the shot in the dark, The sabotage of train tracks. The radio call reporting troop movements. It's not a run to battle so much as a walk to ambush.



Good point. There is logic to retreating to live and fight another day. Resistance is not futile, it is vital.

Still, to use the Red Dawn movie analogy in the scene where the commie steps on the dead man's hand and takes his pistol away; I think based upon my personality; I am more like to be the guy on the ground. :roll:

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raptor wrote:
flybynight wrote:
So what changed since 1940? All those European countries that the Axis powers conquered had active resistance fighters for years . Resistance isn't about confronting the enemy. It's the shot in the dark, The sabotage of train tracks. The radio call reporting troop movements. It's not a run to battle so much as a walk to ambush.



Good point. There is logic to retreating to live and fight another day. Resistance is not futile, it is vital.

Still, to use the Red Dawn movie analogy in the scene where the commie steps on the dead man's hand and takes his pistol away; I think based upon my personality; I am more like to be the guy on the ground. :roll:

That may be, So your significant other ( Sibling/next of kin ) will be the one who avenges you with the sniper shot to the head of that same commie. I always identified with crazy Robert in that film. "ALL THAT HATE IS GONNA BURN YOU UP KID. NAH IT KEEPS ME WARM "

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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
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teotwaki wrote:
MPMalloy wrote:
TacAir, what is AK self-sufficient in? Other than oil, what does it produce?


You got me curious enough to go look...

Alaska's main export product after oil and natural gas is seafood, primarily salmon, cod, Pollock and crab. Agriculture represents only a fraction of the Alaskan economy. Agricultural production is primarily for consumption within the state and includes nursery stock, dairy products, vegetables, and livestock

This is a little tricky, because there is what Alaska is self-sufficient in now and what Alaska could potentially be self-sufficient in. There are a lot of things that we could produce ourselves, but due to transportation costs, limited domestic markets and economies are scale are currently imported. For instance, Alaska could (theoretically) easily become self-sufficient in agriculture if it was a necessity, but right now that would not be economical (also people would get sick of potatoes and sauerkraut, and they wouldn't be getting bread and bananas).

There are two big problems in how much time are people given to prepare and how vulnerable are those preparations to disruption? It's not like additional agricultural capacity can just be turned on with the flip of a switch, it takes time and resources to get things up and running. Even after things get going, any large agricultural operation would be vulnerable to confiscation or destruction by the Russkies. Then people are left to whatever non-perishables they can hide and hunting and gathering, which is not as easy in Alaska as it is sometimes made out to be.

We have massive fossil fuel reserves, but with the small number of roads and railways it seems like distribution would be very vulnerable to disruption. How much coal can be smuggled on a dogsled? :lol: We've got very large forests, but while they are renewable in the long-term they don't grow back very fast. Transportation is also an issue, with wood not giving that great of a return for the weight and bulk. I expect all the trees within easy traveling distance of population centers would be cut down, making the situation even colder due to removal of wind breaks.

Water is plentiful in much of the state (there are problems with naturally occurring arsenic, permafrost, and of course deep wells if you live up in the hills). For much of the year it's just lying all around in solid form. Of course, in urban areas contamination is going to be a problem, and nearly half of Alaskans live in Anchorage.

If there was an invasion, and for some reason everyone wasn't spending their time holed up in fallout shelters and/or dying of radiation poisoning, I would fully expect that in Russian controlled areas everyone would be rounded up into refugee camps (AKA concentration camps) and anyone caught outside the camps not under the direct supervision of Russian authorities would be shot on sight as enemy combatants. Any large scale unauthorized agricultural or mining operations would likely be impossible under those conditions. People might be able to get away with a few cabbages here, a few potatoes there (assuming they have seed and tubers to start with) and they can try their best to hunt and fish, but it's going to be difficult.

If there was still territory controlled by the U.S. it might be possible to farm and mine, but I would guess that transportation would still be a major problem due to roads and railways being blowed up. (River transportation might end up being the most feasible option.)

So I guess that was just a long, rambling way of saying that I think self-sufficiency is somewhat irrelevant and that people would mostly have to rely on what hidden reserves of food they managed to squirrel away beforehand, plus whatever they are given from outside sources.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:51 pm 
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flybynight wrote:
teotwaki wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
I think most Texas boys, and most boys everywhere, would lose their tase for fighting after seeing it up close for a few weeks. And most people I know are not in good enough shape to fight anything, except maybe a buffet. If fighting is anything like paintball, it will take it out of you after three days straight. Even 8 hours can be tough unless you train for it and work out. Even most farm boys I know are done after 6-8 hours of paintball.

But maybe I don't know a representative sample of people.


Since I am not a warfighter it would be a miracle that I last more than 3 days.

So what changed since 1940? All those European countries that the Axis powers conquered had active resistance fighters for years . Resistance isn't about confronting the enemy. It's the shot in the dark, The sabotage of train tracks. The radio call reporting troop movements. It's not a run to battle so much as a walk to ambush.


This reminds me of something someone shared a few years ago. I thought I saved it for purely philosophical discussions like this but I'll be darned if I can find it now. It went something like this, "Don't fight the tanks, attack their fuel depots. Don't fight the aircraft, attack their airfields and ground crew. Don't fight the infantry, poison them..." If someone can find a copy of the whole thing, I'd love to see it again.

I love these purely philosophical discussions,

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quazi wrote:
For instance, Alaska could (theoretically) easily become self-sufficient in agriculture if it was a necessity, but right now that would not be economical (also people would get sick of potatoes and sauerkraut, and they wouldn't be getting bread and bananas).


Ok, the lack of bananas (and other tropical fruits) I get. But I'm confused on the bread. Won't wheat and corn grow in AK?

But when all else fails, we know potatoes grow actually pretty well in AK: Potato Flour > bread

More a general question for our AK residents: how well does rye grow up there?

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This is what I understand from family members who were farmers and speaking with Cooperative Extension Service agents as well as other people involved in Alaskan agriculture: the growing season is too short and/or too cold and wet for most grains in Alaska.

It partly depends on what region you live in. The interior has relatively hot summers, but the season is too short for most grains. It's also too cold for most fall-planted grains to overwinter.

The best grain for Alaska has been barley. It does fairly well in the interior. My understanding is that barley is one of the harder grains to process for use.

Wheat and oats are sometimes grown, but the season is too short. They are generally grown as hay.

Corn takes a lot of coaxing and extra special effort, and still fails more often than not.

My understating is the season is too short for rye.

Despite the milder winters, the more southern parts of Alaska are not as well suited to growing grains as the Interior. The summers are just too cool, and the frequent rain can also be a problem causing certain plants to rot and mold.

All that said, the summers have been warmer than usual for a while now. people are having success with things that failed before. Also, experimentation in Alaska hasn't been as thorough as in other places. it can definitely be worth trying things that have failed for other people.

My grandmother thinks that winter rye might work in our area of Alaska. It failed in Palmer, but we have better snowcover in the winter.

Although not usually used for bread making, some varieties of soup peas and a very few varieties of beans do okay here. I also think that some types of hazelnuts and oaks might produce here, and those can be used for flour, but that is a long term experiment and the results are far from certain.

As far as reliable, storable food is concerned the potato is king in Alaska.

Here is a link to a good handout on growing grains in AK: https://www.uaf.edu/files/snre/C135.pdf


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Thanks Quazi, sounds like I'm going to be eating a lot of sour kraut, red meat and potatoes when we move up there. Which begs the question......

WHY THE HELL DIDN'T I DO THIS SOONER!!!!!! :rofl:

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Dabster wrote:
I love these purely philosophical discussions,

Interesting. I like seeing a wide variety of opinions.
I suppose "survival" or "the plan to survive" should be considered a philosophy but this discussion is mostly hypothetical. In the offense, a good army will destroy the hard targets in front of them. Speed is life. It's after that, when objectives and hard targets are thought to be secure, when the liberal media begin showing pictures and introducing people to other issues that are real that the occupier begins to understand the long term cost of building the bureaucracy and institutions that maintain society and, ultimately, can help a free people to thrive. Occupations are incredibly expensive. Few nations have the treasury to do it, and even fewer are willing to take on the debt that would follow. Still, and I am not even sure now how it got woven into the thread, Alaska is a good guess. Climate is too politicized these days to say anything more than if it leans toward warmer there might be even more land and resource interest up North as we go forward. That's projecting quite a lot though since we do not have the mostly land lock problem as potential competitors. If someone invaded Alaska they are going to be visited later by people from Maine and Florida, Texas, you get the idea. Today, I would probably be more concerned about the entire apparatus coming apart then being invaded.

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flybynight wrote:
Resistance isn't about confronting the enemy. It's the shot in the dark, The sabotage of train tracks. The radio call reporting troop movements. It's not a run to battle so much as a walk to ambush.

According to my limited understanding, this is correct. Resistance fighters/movements also don't necessarily need to do much that is directly militarily useful. From my understanding they can often accomplish goals by merely staying alive and every once in a while doing something to let everyone know they are still alive. The occupying force then has to spend resources trying to hunt them down, provide security to their operations and convince everyone that they really do have things under control. It's not that the resistance has a chance of defeating the occupiers in a fight, they just make it more expensive for the occupiers to remain there.

From a Machiavellian point of view, part of what successful resistance movements do is provoke the occupying force into reacting badly, which results in insurgency getting more support domestically and from abroad. These strategies can lead down a sociopathic rabbit hole. Of course, being able to propagandize and spin things the way you want is really important for both the insurgency and the occupiers.

I think this brings up a paradox when it comes to military occupation: the more brutal and ruthless the occupying force the harder it will be to resist, but at the same time the occupied people have a stronger motivation to resist and less to lose by doing so. I don't want to sound like I'm full of Internet bravado. I know I'm not much of a fighter. However, if my only choices were to either A) die as a partisan having accomplished basically nothing, and B) suffer horrible deprivations in a "refugee" (concentration) camp , I'd like to think I'd choose A. I think a lot of people would choose A, but I don't know. Of course, there would likely be more choices than A or B and things would likely be a lot more complicated and confusing.

flybynight wrote:
]So what changed since 1940? All those European countries that the Axis powers conquered had active resistance fighters for years .

Better aerial reconnaissance? Of course, that doesn't mean that resistance is impossible, it just might shift things from rural to urban environments.

Even then, they might do things like force the evacuation of cities to refugee camps they have set up where everyone going in is strip searched and given an RFID tag. It's for your own safety, you know? And to make sure everyone gets their fair share when the food is distributed.

Doing that would cost a lot of money though. Sending out a drone with thermal imaging to look for resistance fighters also costs money. I vaguely remember a quote that went something like 'We can't keep using $100,000 missiles to blow up $40 tents.' When it comes to the Russians specifically, my understanding is that they have been focusing both on drones and getting the most bang for their buck.

flybynight wrote:
That may be, So your significant other ( Sibling/next of kin ) will be the one who avenges you with the sniper shot to the head of that same commie.

Having people they know get killed has long been a strong motivator for people to join resistance movements. On the flip side, reprisals against family members or even just whatever civilians they can get their hands on has frequently been a tactic to discourage people from joining resistance movements and to encourage them to discourage or turn in others who plan to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:12 pm 
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Many of us are approaching this from the viewpoint of the French underground fighting the NAZIs in WW-2. The NAZI had no extreme desire to liquidate the French. They obviously had other targets in mind. So they acted accordingly.

However, when you see the NAZI response in the USSR, Poland and other countries where such a desire existed, partisan activity was quite different.

Likewise, if you look at a regime like Pol Pot you will see no resistance. Anyone who was even suspected of resistance was simply liquidated.

Occupied China in WW-2 was likewise subjected to absolutely brutal control and systemic liquidation of whole populations.

You do not have to look far today to find current regimes that would likely simply liquidate entire populations as soon as it was convenient for them to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Remember Crimea?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:19 pm 
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Asymetryczna wrote:
Dabster wrote:
I love these purely philosophical discussions,

Interesting. I like seeing a wide variety of opinions.
I suppose "survival" or "the plan to survive" should be considered a philosophy but this discussion is mostly hypothetical. In the offense, a good army will destroy the hard targets in front of them. Speed is life. It's after that, when objectives and hard targets are thought to be secure, when the liberal media begin showing pictures and introducing people to other issues that are real that the occupier begins to understand the long term cost of building the bureaucracy and institutions that maintain society and, ultimately, can help a free people to thrive. Occupations are incredibly expensive. Few nations have the treasury to do it, and even fewer are willing to take on the debt that would follow. Still, and I am not even sure now how it got woven into the thread, Alaska is a good guess. Climate is too politicized these days to say anything more than if it leans toward warmer there might be even more land and resource interest up North as we go forward. That's projecting quite a lot though since we do not have the mostly land lock problem as potential competitors. If someone invaded Alaska they are going to be visited later by people from Maine and Florida, Texas, you get the idea. Today, I would probably be more concerned about the entire apparatus coming apart then being invaded.


Ignoring the political commentary on modern US media: I would like to point out that Russia (and most countries other than the US, including our allies in Europe and the Middle East) have state controlled media monopolies where dissent simply does not exist. Russia would not be plagued by 'war weariness' as Sid Meier has termed it in his games due to media showing the plight and suffering of the occupied region.

The rest of your post is spot on though, thanks.

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